Author Topic: Legal Research Facility  (Read 247 times)

fatfreddy

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Legal Research Facility
« on: September 16, 2011, 10:40:57 PM »
Hi everybody. I don’t know how this question will be received but I feel like some members here may have some unique information.

   My question is essentially this: is there any way for the average person to do psychedelic research outside of academia without being persecuted? By this, I mean being able to publicly publish research under your name, or under a moniker that is not entirely anonymous. I understand that he couldn’t have any scheduled chemicals, first and foremost. Shulgin managed to create this kind of research environment, but was he an outlier and an exception?

   One wonders how they could legitimize their research lab so that it wouldn’t appear to be a clandestine setup that could be busted and persecuted. Alerting authorities of your intentions could lead to an immediate raid or prevention via permitting and red tape. On the other hand, keeping it quiet would give them all the more reason to believe that the lab is clandestine. To reiterate, he would not be doing ANYTHING illegal; the lab would never contain scheduled chemicals or produce anything to be sold. Were Shulgin’s legal connections alone what allowed him to do what he did without being persecuted?

   The first step would seem to be finding a country other than the United States in which to work. As we are all aware, the DEA doesn’t mess around and they would very likely find legal minutiae with which to persecute the researcher or at least dismantle the lab. They almost managed to do this with Shulgin. I’m thinking heading north or to one of the more hospitable Latin American countries would be two viable options. One would also need a secluded rural area, which would abate public health concerns and generally keep the research out of people’s hair. Also, despite the fact that other countries are more suitable, do you think it would be possible to pull this off in the US?

   The other issue would be chemical access. Would Sigma-Aldrich or a similar chemical supply company give you an account and access, or would you be shunned for your lack of titles and connections? Obviously if you were chemically savvy you wouldn’t need anything especially rare or sketchy because you could just go through a few extra steps. Still, you would need a lab full of equipment and the typical reagents, catalysts, and solvents.

   I remember hearing in a Shulgin interview that authorities could not use the complex safety regulations against him because he was the only one working in the lab. Does anyone have access to this legislation and/or familiarity with the nuances and loopholes? Safety regulations seem like one of the ways in which authorities could dismantle an otherwise legitimate research lab, so this information would be very helpful.

Because this might come across as sketchy, I feel like clarifying that this is merely a pipedream and, more importantly, it specifically involves not committing any crimes.

Vesp

  • Administrator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,130
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2011, 11:49:15 PM »
Shulgin was registered with the DEA and have the rights to do so, I believe?

I think the best way to go about it might be to get a permit to train dogs to detect drugs, and than update it to actually making the chemicals over the years or something like that...

If you have no history, a good education, registered as a legitimate business, and a few other things - you might be able to get registered with the DEA and have permission to use and make whatever chemicals you want.
It is highly likely for each chemical you want to create though, a form is going to need to be sent to the DEA for approval, and the quantities would very restricted. Additionally you'd need very good reasons to do it.

Also you would likely have a harder time getting these licenses in another country; if you are not a citizen there.
Also they would undoubtly make you agree to un-announced searches, etc. to make sure you are doing everything properly.


honestly, I don't know anything about this topic, but I thought I'd say some stuff to give it more attention and maybe get some other people in here to reply to this topic, it looks very interesting and who knows, it might be more possible than thought before?
I would say if you were to contact the DEA about this; get rid of all chemicals, history, etc or affiliation with drugs, get a registered business, have a really practical and useful reason, have a good background, education, etc and hope for the best.

If you can get the DEA's permission, chemical access would not be an issue at all I wouldn't think....
Bitcoin address: 1FVrHdXJBr6Z9uhtiQKy4g7c7yHtGKjyLy

fatfreddy

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 12:21:25 AM »
But would you need permission from the DEA if you were researching only entirely unscheduled tryptamines, cannabinoids, etc.? Those don't fall under their jurisdiction as long as they aren't blatant analogues, right?

Sedit

  • Global Moderator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,099
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2011, 12:24:48 PM »
As far as i know you are correct.... They can and will more then likely hound you if they found out but if you where working on a totally legal new drug then there is almost nothing they can do except for fine the living shit out of you because you can bet your ass that something in your lab is not up to code. Look at the video called dirty pictures that was just posted very recently. They even hounded Shulgin all the time even though he did alot of work for the DEA....

If you have everything in order, up to code, permits for various chemicals that need one, proper zoning ect....ect....ect..... and never sold your results.....

There really aint shit they can do about it except for learn from you about what new drugs they are going to soon ban.

I have been considering this very same thing myself because i think i may have stumbled upon some borderline psychedelic GABAergic drugs via modulation of 5HT- through over stimulation of the Benzodiazepine site. It also appears that the alpha GABA a1y2 receptor may contain a substrate for 5HT itself meaning this could become an entirely new class of hallucinogen. Right now its Im in the early research phase but it will be a matter of time before I am forced to cross that bridge between theoretical and testing. I believe first order of test should be on 2-(2,3-dihydro-1H-indol-3-yl)-N,N-dimethylacetamide or 1-(2,3-dihydro-1H-indol-3-yl)-2-(dimethylamino)ethanone aka Carbonyl substituted DMT as these should show ligand activity at the benzodiazepine binding site.

Obviously however MUCH more research need be done on my end before I can make any sort of conclusion.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

hypnos

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2011, 02:10:04 PM »
Quote
There really aint shit they can do about it except for learn from you about what new drugs they are going to soon ban

Aint that the truth

And sedit, you're sounding well, with the other research you're doing,,I wish you satisfaction

I like other members here am somewhat "scared" to Give these pricks a 'Heads Up"  Big pharma

WANTS to CONTROL "recreational drugs" MORE THAN ANYTHING

They give HUGE amounts of bucks to the Govt......Ya gets what ya pays for these days....and

they are the THIRD LARGEST Business in the world after Oil and then Banking

  One 'suggestion' look into Insecticides....Cymene....looks intereting to "play with........"

I like the Idea,,but I think the days o "the Dr Shulgins", are Long gone, as to having that kind of

reasearch facility+ Possibility Unless you work for Jannsen Pfizer & co

I'm sorry to the community here if I havent given more , or have much to give but I'm sad that so

many seem to feel the same? Knowledge is power? I hope so for Julian Assuange's sake

I feel like I'm living in a world full of Distracted fools,, matrixy and running All Wrong

MDMA was THE asnwer, except as a friend said refusing some "I wanna remember tonight" ;)

 But, those fuckin good doofs (raves in the bush with a few hundred people in various states.....)

 with all gods chillin and loving, while pingin (rollin in 'amarican' )

I HATE BEING TOLD I SHOULD BE PARANOID---and I live in a modern country with 1960's

American Values!!!!!  HOW can I say without "giving it away" to the wrong cunts?  BTW the ONLY

safe computer is a second hand  INSTANLY DISposable One, self destructing coz if it "gets got"...

your Deniability must be pretty fucking Plausible


 Any idea's on "how to share and NOT to give the Agents the "Goods?"

  Cheers all

hypnos
"the two things you can give away and never lose, are what you know, and how you feel...."

nk40ouvm

  • Pupae
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2011, 07:23:07 PM »
As with most things, this is going to be a lot easier if you have money.

First, chemicals: a few years back I incorporated an LLC for my SO's soap-and-cosmetics business. Later I actually started leasing some commercial space for her work. To my surprise, a year or so later I started receiving unsolicited catalogs from suppliers of analytical and general laboratory chemicals as well as flavor and fragrance compounds. I never tried to use the business as a convenience for my own hobby acquisition -- I already had ways to do that -- but being a registered business with a commercially zoned location will open doors without you even pushing on them. I also have a business bank account for the business itself -- not sure if potential suppliers can find that information when they profile potential customers, but it surely can't hurt.

Second, work space: you're a lot less likely to fall afoul of local regulations or neighborly suspicion if your lab is in the commercial space rather than your home. The letter of the law may be the same in both cases, but I'm sure that regulators who think you're just an overworked small entrepreneur are going to treat minor safety/health/environmental violations (should you accidentally run afoul) differently than if they think you're some drug fiend who's exploiting loopholes in the system.

Third, think about what sort of organization you want to position yourself as, how it will be described on its LinkedIn page, and so on. What, you were going to keep completely silent about the organization online? No, better to have at least a little web presence describing what you do. It can be incomplete but it shouldn't be lies. This way anyone checking up on you will find your description as the first Google result. If you're silent you let evidence from third parties and public records do all the talking; why do that when you can provide a nice first impression? Here are some ideas for your business description that provide legitimate cover and will prime suppliers to sell you a variety of materials: biomass to fine chemicals, green chemistry R&D, catalyst development, computer aided synthesis technology development. Pick the description that most closely aligns with how you actually use your lab time so you can convincingly describe the bigger goals you're striving toward and how your current projects contribute. It helps to have professional educational credentials relevant to your field also.

Fourth, type of organization: you may want to look into incorporating as a not-for-profit. You can end up in trouble with the authorities (tax authorities, not drug authorities) if your business never reports significant revenue. You may need to talk to a lawyer about structuring an organization that is most appropriate for someone who wishes to have a commercial identity as an independent researcher but who is not planning on having clients at this time.

Fifth: remember that you are hiding in plain sight. This isn't a case where you should do "cover story" chemistry during the day then come back at midnight for your secret drug work. Keep anything about human consumption, pharmacology, and "underground" drug chemistry literature away from your research area and work on your projects in the open. If you need to keep a journal of bioassays or whatever, do it in an encrypted form on a computer you leave at home. Same goes for visiting sites like this: never use your work computer for it and you might want to use an encrypted VM to visit sites you don't want to be traced to. The surface elements should add up to a believable story and people should be uninterested in peeking beneath the surface, finding nothing if they do peek. This also means that you can't tell people you know in real life what you're really interested in or offer them samples of your mind-bending products.

Sixth: back to money. Unless you have a trust fund or something you probably need a day job to afford your commercial space and the pursuits of your real passion. This may require long term planning to pull off. If you can get a decent job in an area with lower real estate prices, for example, your commercial space will probably be cheaper and you will have more money left over for lab stuff after paying for your rent or mortgage. You would really be living the dream if you could turn your lab into an actual legitimate money-maker, so you have to work fewer hours or not at all at a second job. I know of at least one person who is doing exactly this: they have a real, viable business based on small scale commercial chemistry and they also use it to hide their psychonaut explorations in plain sight. If you are a trained chemist or plan to become one, consider forming your company as a contract research organization and then actually pursuing contracts to do research for others. Even if it doesn't pay great, you will be spending more time honing your chemistry skills.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 07:59:57 AM by nk40ouvm »

hypnos

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 01:34:49 AM »
 talk about comprehensive, NK400uvm ,  I couldnt have said it better

 "You would really be living the dream if you could turn your lab into an actual legitimate money-maker, so you have to work fewer hours or not at all at a second job. I know of at least one person who is doing exactly this"

  And I have NO doubt, they are not the only ones out there

  IIRC some research chemists at a large US lab, got caught, by "chance?",,(possibly) making fentanyl

analogues.....the cops had come to tell one of them his house had been burgled or his cat got run over or whatever, and "noticed Something' that led to some intel==Hello DEA

 But Take a Leaf out of one of the great street artists, a dude named "Banksy"  He's painted on walls around the world,Including the one that separates Israel and Palestine

 there's an amazing doco about "street art" with him always in disguise--called "Exit through the gift shop"
  HE HAS NEVER BEEN CAUGHT!!! and his true Identity is a well guarded secret, of a few people

"Such is the curiosity about Banksy that when the great man threw a pizza box into a bin in Los Angeles, the box resurfaced on auction site eBay, with the seller suggesting that the few anchovies left inside might yield traces of his DNA.

He is the Scarlet Pimpernel of modern art, so adept at leaving false trails that even his own agent has claimed that he is not certain of his identity

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1034538/Graffiti-artist-Banksy-unmasked---public-schoolboy-middle-class-suburbia.html#ixzz1YGNh82uc
"
NO he is still anonymous in 2011 to but a few...the UK cops would LOVE to catch him!  Shit he even printed high quality,passable 10 or 20 pound notes with princess Di on them instead of the queens face on them!!!! TOP QUALITY,...the doco I well worth the watch, UNIQUE 8)

 Enjoy, and considering some of his "street art" pieces sold for OVER $500,000, what your passion? Money or research?

 
 
"the two things you can give away and never lose, are what you know, and how you feel...."

flush_it

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2011, 07:52:42 AM »
hey hypnos  those doofs still going on havent been to 1 in  ages so cant say how good they are btu im suree there is plenty of nice stuff goin round there lol

atara

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2011, 12:08:39 AM »
Dr. Shulgin was a highly distinguished chemist working for none other than Dow -- aka We Banned Weed for Money Incorporated -- before he ever started working on drugs. If you get a PhD and publish a few papers, I'm sure the DEA will have no problem giving you a Schedule I license.

fatfreddy

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2011, 01:32:14 AM »
It seems like Canada would be a much better place for such an endeavor if it were convenient. Their maximum sentences are FAR lower than the DEA's; their maximum for psychedic synthesis is 10 years while it is a maximum of life in the US.

http://www.defencelaw.com/penalties-drugs.html

I guess maximums don't technically matter because such a plan would involve avoiding scheduled chemicals, but it would be nice to know that you couldn't legally be slapped with a lengthy sentence over a trivial mistake.

What kind of business opportunities exist for small-scale labs? Custom synthesis? Sample analysis? It seems like the latter could get you ties with the DEA or state narcotics agencies, if you played your cards right.

What kind of education do you think you would need to start something like that? Would just a quality, focused bachelors work? Or would you need a masters or a PhD? Of course that's more of a matter of formality than anything else in this case, because anyone frequenting a site like this is interested enough to teach themselves.

By the way Sedit, that research sounds epic. :D Keep us posted!

And thank you for the very thoughful response, nk40ouvm.

hypnos

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 01:05:04 AM »
"hey hypnos  those doofs still going on havent been to 1 in  ages so cant say how good they are btu im suree there is plenty of nice stuff goin round there lol"

Most certainly are..Doof season Is summer down under which arrive by accident, Yesterday!! I kid you NOT !!  :o

 Btw welcome flush_it, I like your handle .lol check out the last few pages of the Lab accidents to appreciate you own moniker,  tho maybe you already have?...anyways, welcome,and even though I am far from the most righteous player, please Read the Rules-not that you havent, or have done anything wrong,but there have been some changes here, and I think you will find yourself "better apprecited" if you are At Least have a General Idea of them, and the purpose they serve ;)

 My home town is notorious for its variable weather, but what happened yesterday, I have never seen occur BEFORE November????

Atara you nailed it as well  ;) 8)

 Go hard with the lateral thinking FatFredddy---I LOVE the Furry Freak Bros!! ;D ;D ;D

 Cheers all

Hyppy 8)

Ps, Vesp, IIRC someone like Sigma -Aldrich make special compounds, i think are called (somewhat ironically???) "pseudo heroin and the like, for training Drug Detection dogs!!!
  IIRC its in their catalogue of schedule 1 chems!! :o
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 01:15:44 AM by hypnos »
"the two things you can give away and never lose, are what you know, and how you feel...."

overunity33

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 04:36:07 PM »
You would be surprised what they let scientists get away with.  If you are a respected member of the community you can often work with scheduled drugs by a judges order, a DEA permit is not necessary.  I don't know if this is universal but I have heard of it happening a few times.

reDEEMed

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: Legal Research Facility
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 05:10:50 PM »
It happens a lot more than a few times.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna