Author Topic: Preparing anhydrous solvents  (Read 227 times)

reDEEMed

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Preparing anhydrous solvents
« on: September 24, 2011, 07:47:39 PM »
I got a hair up my ass this morning and decided to see how clean and dry I could get some ethanol. So I distilled 500ml, then cleaned and dried the flask in the oven and redistilled. Only this time instead of having the receiving flask attached I had a funnel full of MgSO4 with a little heap of activated carbon on top. I decided when the ethanol is done I will do the same with methanol. I thought about doing some xylene or toluene, but distilling these changes your blend of isomers thereby changing the solvent, is this right? While I'm setup I wonder if you guys have any suggestions of things I can run through this little Rube Goldberg distillation apparatus.

I'm in one of those moods where I don't wanna synth anything, I wanna do shit like this. If I do synth anything it'll be stuff to use in other synths; hydroxylamine, methylamine, pretty much anything that is just a couple functional groups stuck together. I love these compounds that are just a couple functional groups. They seem to be among the handiest things you can have just lying around. I guess I should find out more about methylamine before I make any. Because honestly, I don't know if it's just heavily watched or if it's outright illegal. If it's outright illegal that's just gonna blow my mind, I mean seriously? I guess it's no stranger than making a plant illegal, though.

Here's my feeble little drying funnel. Is it adequate?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 01:35:38 AM by reDEEMed »
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
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Wizard X

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 12:58:25 AM »
reDEEMed: There is a security issue with your picture IMG_1107_scaled.JPG that you uploaded & posted. Look at the Meta information in the JPG you posted.

Read this, How To Remove MetaData From Photos (Windows)  http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-remove-the-metadata-from-your-photos-windows-only/

AND download JPEG & PNG Stripper, http://www.steelbytes.com/?mid=30&cmd=download&pid=15
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 01:33:13 AM by Wizard X »
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

reDEEMed

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2011, 01:35:12 AM »
I thought metadata was stripped automatically. Guess not. Thanks for the heads up.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

hypnos

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2011, 09:36:38 PM »
 thanx Wizmon, thats a rockin little program there!!! 8)  It took about 5 secs to do ALL my Big photo file! ;D

 Thanx again, coz I am NOT as up to date with this stuff, as I would like to be, ::) and I'm rather time poor currently, so I am most grateful for the advice AND the assistance, something you do with a pleasant consistency 8) 8)

Cheers Hyppy :) 8)
"the two things you can give away and never lose, are what you know, and how you feel...."

letters

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 06:12:04 AM »
cant see the pics, but mgso4 isnt good for ethanol. it dissolves in it. the same applies to methanol. however methanol does not form an azeotrope with water, so you can just distill it as is to relatively dry it. ethanol requires a drying agent to break the azeotrope. 3a mol sieves work very well. CaO is also a common alcohol drying agent since as it reacts with water it forms Ca(OH)2 which is insoluble in the common alcohols.
toluene is self drying. its azeotrope is such that allows you to distill it to almost complete dryness. if you need it extra dry use some magnesium sulfate. isopropanol I dry with MgSO4 also.

reDEEMed

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 06:31:26 AM »
I keep hearing people sing the praises of the 3a molecular sieves, I suppose it's time I buy some. I had no idea that MgSO4 was no good for ethanol and methanol, in fact it seems like I read or was told specifically to use it. So, I'm glad you told me that. I took the pic down for the time being since the meta data was intact. I thought that was all removed by the software here at the board. I know better than to assume someone else is going to look out for me, but for some reason I still do it.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

Tsathoggua

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2011, 12:34:03 AM »
It depends on what you are using the solvent FOR as to what can be considered anhydrous.

A trace of H2O isn't going to bugger a borohydride reduction, and one can get away with more water in a LAH reduction I imagine, than one can when handing tert-butyllithium, which has to be done under a schlenk line.

The solvent has to be dry enough for a specific use..if a certain trace water content is acceptable or not depends on what your use is for the intended reaction.

Distillation from calcium carbide can be used for final stage drying for very, very, very dry alcohols, then sparge with dried He, Ar or N (lead through conc. H2SO4, suckback trap, CaO,) to drive off any dissolved acetylene.

If you need to be that thorough, thats some seriously involved, careful work, that you plan out in advance for a specific project, not just something to keep lying around, thats likely only to be needed for sensitive organometallic reactions. Grignards even are not THAT sensitive as far as I know.
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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

reDEEMed

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2011, 02:49:55 AM »
This is more for stock, rather than a particular reaction at this point. I get off on having a well stocked cabinet every bit as much as I do the actual chemistry. I've had the occasional call for shit like anhydrous methanol, when I was tinkering with the hoffman, and I can tell having thise things on hand is just a good idea.

That love affair with stock is about to get worse I'm afraid. I'll be moving again in a few weeks and I'll have a lab, finally. I'll be looking to use some of that room I'll have and my chemical stash is something I'm sure will get the bulk of my attention at first. I finally get to start brewing beer again, and doing my electronics projects, dammit!!! Can't wait for me and my anhydrous solvents and my fucked up mouse to troll the vespiary from my new shop/lab. I might just die of happiness right then.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

letters

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2011, 08:26:20 AM »
any anhydrous is solvent isnt really dry. it still usually contains few ppms of water. there are a few good papers on drying agents and solvents, heres one especially good, and quite new -
Drying of Organic Solvents: Quantitative Evaluation of the Efficiency of Several Desiccants. D. Bradley G. Williams* and Michelle Lawton. J. Org. Chem. 2010, 75, 8351–8354.
Sorry i dont upload, but my articles identify me. Super dry solvents as Tsathoggua said, are usually only needed for organometallic reactions, not only for the dangerous ones (t-BuLi, LiAlH4) but also for the sensitive organometallic coordinated transition metal catalysts, many of the new stuff will decompose under h2o or o2.
however, for most of my needs, 3a mol sieves are the choice for me. unless the solvent is sensitive to base (like acetone), since the mol sieves are somewhat basic and can cause autopolymerization (aldol type) of acetone.
when i want to keep solvents very dry, i usually dry them with the drying agent of choice and then distill if i need ti super clean. i collect the solvents straight into bottles 1/5-1/4 full of mol sieves and close the cap. this will keep your solvents dry for a long time, and also wont become too wet by opening them, since the excess mol sieves will suck up any moisture.

reDEEMed

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2011, 08:49:41 AM »
Great information, thanks. You reminded me about the sieves just in time, I was about to order me a 2 or 3 neck flask and I would have completely forgotten about the sieves. I'll order some tonight.
"Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable."
— Terence McKenna

salat

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 03:12:05 PM »
3A works fine for Ethanol, I've never seen it dissolve.  We use drierite for Methanol. 

Beware drying the 3A - we have a little fisher oven in the garage and the first time he tried it the door blew open with flames so you wouldn't want to have been doing that in the kitchen.  Now I think he heats the flask with the 3A in it and distills off whatever solvent was in it before he puts it in the oven.

He uses the 3A for IPA too, but also CaO.  He refluxes the IPA in the CaO for a while, stuff is drier than Heet!
Salat

Wizard X

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 12:31:17 AM »
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Tsathoggua

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Re: Preparing anhydrous solvents
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 11:02:30 PM »
Where on earth have you been Salat? I haven't seen you post in AGES? are you and your other half doing ok? was beginning to wonder if you had been arrested/abducted by aliens/'extraordinarily rendered' by the CIA/NSA/KGB/FSB/ mistaken for an taliban spy  and spirited off to guantanamo bay.

Or have you just been a bit tied up lately?

Sigma aren't going to serve anybody here with so much as a drop of distilled water. Making H2O reference standards, having no standard to go on is going to be beyond the means of anybody working for themselves. I'd thought of karl-fisher titrations, but I don't see how it could be done without a front company or somehow going through a university.

I doubt it would be a suspicious item, after all, most meth cooks, LSD chemists,  people making MDMA, amphetamine, growing herb, they don't need that, nor do the grignard PCP cooks, but its obscure, and nobodody is going to bee selling those buggers easily.
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.