Author Topic: Nitrites  (Read 339 times)

Sedit

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Nitrites
« on: June 24, 2009, 10:10:39 PM »
Nitrate reduction using Molten Lead
The means by which I synthesis my nitrites is thru the reduction potential of lead on Sodium Nitrates. This is a faily streight forward reaction that involves melting the metallic Lead in a crucible and slowly adding the nitrate to be reduced. The reaction progresses forward in the manner of,
(l)Pb + NaNO3 --> PbO + NaNO2

A useful byproduct of the reaction is litharge and can be a good indicator as to the progress of the reaction. This takes varying amounts of time but nothing to involved although the use of elemental lead is a bit trouble some to me as many nitrites go into the synthesis of consumble substances.

Once the reaction is completed your crucible will be left with a mixture of PbO and nitrite and will need to be seperated but this is no real chore in that PbO is not water soluble so simply add some H2O to the crucible(tin can if your cheep ;D) and allow it to soak until the cake can be broken up with ease. Add enough H2O to dissolve the Nitrite avalible and grind the mixture to make sure you have dissolved all the nitrite. Decant and filter the solution because PbO is a bitch so you want to make sure all of it has settled before attempting to filter it. Once again add a bit of H2O to make sure all of your nitrite is out and repeat the filter steps.

Combine the filtrates and once again filter to the best of your abilitys this time with some cotton or paper towel in the funnel stem to remove all traces you can of PbO from the product and then slowly evaporate the nitrite solution on a low heat to prevent oxidation of the nitrite back to the nitrate.

Now since I am a stickler for making the best of my chemicals you will also want to retrieve that PbO thats in there for what ever use you may find for it.

The PbO is mixed in with unoxidised lead also so simply bottling it up is not an option if you want it pure. No matter though because Pb is a very heavy metal and even though PbO is heavier the PbO is in the form of very finely divided powder. Add water to the ground up mix and stir allowing a second or two for the Pb to settle and then decant the suspension. This will settle to a layer of relativly pure PbO and you will be able to once again decant the water and dry your Pb free PbO. Repeat this as much as needed to remove all the PbO but it should only take two maybe three times before 90% or so of the PbO has been seperated. If you where stirring your nitrate Pb mix the Pb at the bottom will also now be in the form of little lead shot that can be used in the next process but the yeilds are a bit lower from the looks of it.


Nitrites thru ball milling

This is another method I have hands on with and while it showed promise I have not persued it to its full potential yet because it showed a marked decrease in yeilds.
I mixed 2x molar excess of Pb to the nitrates and added a bit of sand to help expose the clean surface of the Lead whilst it was being milled. A very small amount of H2O just enough to make a slush was added and this was allowed to run for two days after adding some steal ball bearings to the mix to aid in exposing fresh metal to the action of the nitrite. Work up was repeated as per the above process except this time the PbO was recoved using GAA to convert the Pb to Lead acetate and filtered from the sand.


Electrochemical Reduction of nitrates
Now this I have not tryed yet but you can bet im going to get on it sometime real soon because the products are Nitrite and Nitric acid so what could be better then have some nitric acid to synthesis hydroxylamine in the cell after your done reducing your nitrites. I don't fully understand whats going on yet but when I do I will let you know how it goes.

Quote
THE PRODUCTION OF NITRITE FROM NITRATE.
The reduction of nitrate to nitrite can be accomplished satisfactorily, and the process is the subject of a recent patent.1 It has been shown (Miiller and "Weber)2 that in a divided cell, smooth platinum or copper cathodes reduce nitrate to nitrite and ammonia, but platinised platinum gives much ammonia and little nitrite. A spongy copper or silver cathode was found to give the best results. With a current density of 0*25 amps, per dm.3 and a concentration of 2*3 grams of sodium nitrate per litre, a current efficiency of 90 per cent, was obtained. The current efficiency with an amalgamated copper cathode was found to diminish when 50 per cent, of the nitrate had been changed.

Considerable care is evidently needed to prevent the formation of ammonia, since it has been shown by W. H. Easton3 that nitrates may be quantitatively reduced to ammonia by electrolysis. In the patent referred to above, the cell described is suitable for the electrolysis of alkali chloride and is of the bell type, but it is particularly suitable for electrolysing alkali nitrate.

Pure nitric acid is formed at the anode inside the bell and is removed by distillation, which is effected by working under reduced pressure and by heating the bells with superheated steam. The nitrite which is formed at the cathode is drawn off continuously and separated outside the cell. The cell itself acts as cathode, and the anode is of such size as to almost fill the bell and thus reduce the working space of the electrolyte. High current density (16 amps, per dm.2), reduced pressure and high temperature, are favourable to the distillation of a large amount of concentrated nitric acid

This seems very food safe and two for the price of one deal don't sound to shabby at all.

Conclusion: The molten Pb reduction is by far the highest yeilding form I have seen yet but there are many other methods of reducing the nitrates but I have no first hand experiance with them. I will post there reactions later on if no one can step up giving first hand information but I would prefer to see some data from someone that has performed other means of reduction.
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Vesp

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 05:20:15 AM »
I plan on making more Potassium Nitrite from Potassium Nitrate using Carbon.

I have done this and have about 95 grams of large glass/white crystals of what I believe to be fairly pure KNO2. I will test the purity of them sometime and report back. Also I plan on making more nitrite and I will take pictures of the entire process, state grams, yield, etc.
First however I need to fix my ball mill, and find a less reactive "crucible" that will not put metal oxides into the molten mass of KNO2. I believe a lost a lot of purity and product since I had to clean out and deal with the metal compounds that formed.

The basics of the KNO3/C reaction goes like this:

2 mols, or 202.2 grams of KNO3 are ball milled with 1 mol, or 12 grams of carbon in a ball mill until they are completely mixed and are a fine powder. The finer the powder the better I believe since this will prevent carbonates from forming in some places, and leaving nitrate in others. There will be some of either carbonate or nitrate depending on what you have mixed in excess. Carbonate impurity is likley easier to extract via fractional crystallization or reacting with nitrous acid?

After it is a fine well mixed powder, place the powder in a chemical and heat resistant bowl/crucible and heat until it spontaneously ignites. It will produce a lot of smoke, and you will want to do this outside or in a fume hood. The amount of smoke I observe is probably because my potassium nitrate has a decent amount of ammonium chloride as an impurity, and also the carbon source is charcoal. I have used pure KNO3 and if I recall correctly, it didn't produce nearly as much smoke. The smoke formed smells similiar to the smoke from my gun powder.

a liquid will be left bubbling in the bowl, you may want to stir it a bit, and make sure all of the carbon has reacted. Keeping it molten for a few more minutes is not a bad idea from my experience.

Once it has cooled, dissolve it in a minimum amount of boiling water and crystallize out to get nice pure looking crystals. It may be possible to separate out any nitrate at this point.

I haven't done any qualitative tests to determine the purity of my crystals, I just know that with the addition of sulfuric acid nitrogen oxides form in seemingly large amounts.
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no1uno

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 01:12:15 AM »
Nitrites are available OTC - look into corrosion inhibitors (extract a rhodamine dye and you'll get a water solution of them) and concrete additives ;)
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Vesp

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 01:15:43 AM »
Thanks, how practical is the dye source though? Seems like they could be pretty expensive.

The concrete seems the most attractive to me, but I love the KNO3 + C method. It really works great IFF you ball mill them to a fine powder and then allow for it to auto-ignite on a hotplate.

crystallization leads to pure clear crystals that look a lot like KNO3, but clearly are not because of their production of NOx with the addition of an acid and their ability to perform diazo compounds :D

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no1uno

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 02:21:23 AM »
No, the rhodamine dyes are in the solution - that is why the radiator additives sell, people won't buy stuff that is clear & looks like water to put in their radiator.

Work out a way to extract those dyes and we are away - as the reported solubility of NaNO2 in 95% EtOH at 25C is 1.4%, and the rhodamine dyes are highly soluble in ethanol, then maybe allow the solution to dry (mix it with fine sand to increase surface area & heat it carefully), then wash the dried NaNO2 with minimal COLD dry 95% EtOH. Use the NaNO2/Silica in a column directly with ethyl halide and just see if it works :)
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Sedit

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 04:37:16 AM »
It pains me to say it Vesp since I have been an avid fan of the Lead reduction for sometime now but I think the Carbon reduction may just have its place in my tool box after all. See, before recently I have been making Sodium nitrite from NaNO3 because it has a lower mass associated with the nitrite ion but I recently aquired some KNO3 and the seperation of the unreacted nitrate makes other methods such as the carbon reduction more apealing.

I can now react my KNO3 and evaporate the extracted solution and when boiled down SLOWLY I am left with fine fluff on top of crystal clear.. crystals. the crystals do not react with H2SO4 where as the fluff reacts very violently producing dark clouds of NOx above it. After drying I simply add the smallest amount of water I can and leach out the nitrite which has a huge solubility at low temperatures compaired to the nitrate. This was not an option with sodium nitrate reductions because there solubilitys are so simular that clean seperation was a bitch to perform. KNO3 reductions do not have that problem.


A 'few' quick test show that you do not want to use a metal container because they go away into a puddle of crap real quick. Best results came from just placing a clean pile onto concrete and placing a bowl on top to ensure a reduction enviroment.
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shroomedalice

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 04:44:18 AM »
there was a post on SM about using lead tartrate for this.
it was from some one in europe some were who could not get nitrites and aparently
its quite a popular route as the tartrate is better at reducing the nitrate than straight lead.

I never go around to trying it although I did make the tartrate which was very easy to make.

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2009, 07:55:11 PM »
That it's a good method I think, better if it could be done with the cheap as dirt and OTC as lemon juice and baking soda, sodium citrate. The idea would be to dissolve lead oxide from a dead car battery in to acetic acid, then add trisodium citrate (or a water soln of the same that you can make by adding baking soda or lye to lemon juice until neutralized) to the water solution, filther the precipitated lead citrate, melt nitrate in an iron pot, add the lead citrate a bit by bit, dissolve in water & filter the lead oxide/carbonate (recycle!) to obtain a water solution of the nitrite. Beter save your pure and slightly expensive tartaric acid for the dutch resolution. What do you think about that?

@ sedit: Do you think that anyone could obtain anything usefull if he or she added ethyl chloride (made with ethanol and hydrochloric acid with catalytic zinc chloride, that he can make from batterys too) in ethanol to a water and ethanol soln of a nitrite, heated the mixture inside a fire extinguiser, then fractionaly distilled the mixture or added shitloads of water and NaCl, then extracted with a low boiling NP?

shroomedalice

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Re: Nitrites
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2009, 01:30:44 AM »
not sure as I said I have yet to try it.

but tartaric acid is cheap as chips here.
actualy around the same price as citric acid and is found in the suppermarket.