Author Topic: Replicating Drug Scents  (Read 283 times)

dream0n

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Replicating Drug Scents
« on: October 05, 2011, 10:08:18 PM »
"Cocaine hydrochloride hydrolyzes in moist air to give methyl benzoate; drug-sniffing dogs are thus trained to detect the smell of methyl benzoate."  -wiki-

[EDIT] What if cocaine citrate (other salts) were used?

Sigma and ALL the other companies sell a methyl benzoate /cellulose/silica mixture in their 'drug scent' kits.

Post Here about any other information regarding scents, and substitutes...

From this data one should be readily able to derive, how to not get caught by a drug dog.
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dream0n

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2011, 10:25:40 PM »
Heroin: Unverified, but taken from sigma's pseudo collection.
O-Acetylsalicylic acid with a very slight amount of acetic acid.  ( 25.2%, and 0.3%, respectively) 

Again, along with "Pyrogenic colloidal silica". See Fumed Silica.

It is undecided, at this time, the mechanism in which the scent works. (Someone find it)
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Vesp

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 10:27:57 PM »
It likely detects a variety of compounds released from the cocaine, including the cocaine itself - I bet enough of it sublimates for the dog to detect it.

This is an interesting thread, there is another semi-related one that discusses perhaps deadening the olfactory neurons of dogs to prevent them from any detection, but nothing really useful was found in that thread.
See here: http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,808.msg9660.html#msg9660
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dream0n

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2011, 10:47:55 PM »
Yes, real drugs are used in the majority of situations (in the past at least).

I did read the other thread, and found it interesting, but I felt this topic was separate enough to deserve its own thread :)

If any can find information regarding the k9 detection of non-normal salt forms (or even freebase) of common drugs, it would be appreciated.
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Gypsy

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2011, 06:58:25 AM »
I too was thinking of the methyl benzoate thing for avoiding, and confusing dogs at festivals, it would obviously be a bad idea to use where you dont want to alert the hounds. . These dogs are obviously trained to detect these chemicals in a few PPM. I was thinking rather aim for sensory overload rather than anosmia as in the link vesp posted.
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Vesp

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2011, 07:59:17 AM »
If you wanted to mess with them at a concert; add methyl bonzoate into small packets of lotion and give that out for free? People would probably use that or kick it all around, stepping on it with their shoes, etc etc....

>Dogs also are set off by Hemp lotion, so I have heard.
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Gypsy

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2011, 09:19:08 AM »
Yeah and Ive also read somewhere that dogs cant tell the difference between Hops and Cannabis so that might be a very cost effective route to investigate.
I dunno I suppose the lotion thing would work, I was more thinking of a water pistol. spray other people. other vehicles. even if it sublimates quickly, these dogs are trained to detect a few PPM. overload the dogs senses and the pigs workload!

Vesp

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2011, 09:53:47 AM »
Good point. I have heard in mexico they pay people to wash windshields with drug laced water to mess up the border control.

I doubt Hops would work; beer doesn't set them off.
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b6baddawg

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2011, 04:13:26 PM »
dogs are always pulling people visiting in jail who have drugs in their system rather than on their person.
it doesnt seem to be heroin addicts but rather cocaine/amphetamine/cannabis users.
the cannabis is understandable, (smoke clinging to clothes etc)
do the first two have similar degradation products once broken down in the body coming out in sweat?
an idle thought been perhaps it is degradation products what are more "smelly"

dream0n

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2011, 02:22:46 AM »
Safrole, iso-safrole, piperonal, or related compound were used in a MDMA/MDA scent discrimination experiment using trained dogs.

"more than 9 times out of 10", all dogs would alert to mdma/mda even though they had been trained to smell [ Safrole, iso-safrole, piperonal, or related compound] something not mdma/mda itself.

We must gather from this that dogs will occasionally not alert when the substance is not precisely the same, rather, giving off the same (correct) scent.

Experiment:
To test if dogs are trained to smell THC and related compounds, or mixtures of terpenes.
(Which would make sense, but ya never know)
After obtaining a mixture of terpenes that are found in marijuana to spray onto a dorm-walls/carpeting surrounding door frames, etc.. (The halls are regularly monitored by police/campus-police  due to the reputation that the school has acquired for use.) Dogs are often part of the procedure, we may see the number of resulting false-positives raise significantly, or may not. (It will be funny either way, for me to watch) 

[EDIT] I may try and obtain some HOPS profile terpene mixture, and lace a specific area with it to see effect. To experimentally prove the hops thing.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 02:27:49 AM by dream0n »
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psychexplorer

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2011, 02:34:57 AM »
Somewhere over the rainbow it was found that door handles (especially bathrooms), faucet knobs, pay telephones, and armrests/siderails on benches and chairs were frequently touched places. Think of all the places you don't want to touch during flu season. That is where the combination of the scent agent and appropriate low vapor pressure solvent belong.

At a festival, the handles to the portable toilets are by far the most handled surface.

Masking does not work against dogs and deadening is not reliable. If there are targeted scents the dog will detect them. The only way to defeat the dog is to make the dog's scent worthless as a discriminator between those possessing contraband and those who are clean. Think in terms of a denial of service.

The willingness of dogs to alert on trace, residual odors is far overstated. Law enforcement frequently lies to cover up true false positives as well as a handler's illegal signal to alert. Dogs can sense these trace amounts, but they aren't high enough to elicit an alert. Anyone who has ever watched a detection dog at work can pick up on this behavior on closer inspection. The dog only alerts when the odor becomes strong enough to meet the dog's confidence threshold. A properly trained dog will become frisky and inquisitive upon sensing a trace odor, at which point it goes to work trying to find the source. If it can't find a strong source odor then the dog sort of goes in circles before either giving up or chasing a false trail elsewhere.

If the dog alerted on any trace, it would do so upon entering a room with dope, rather than actually tracking down which pocket among hundreds of people the dope is in.

The detection behavior derives from the dog's natural hunting instincts. By its nature, the dog becomes engaged and active when it senses its prey nearby, but it does not become aggressive until it has found the target.

Forget about the wiper man, there are other tricks, assuming the local cell even understands the concept of a DoS attack. Lots of tricks, best not discussed.

psychexplorer

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2011, 02:38:42 AM »
Safrole, iso-safrole, piperonal, or related compound were used in a MDMA/MDA scent discrimination experiment using trained dogs.

"more than 9 times out of 10", all dogs would alert to mdma/mda even though they had been trained to smell [ Safrole, iso-safrole, piperonal, or related compound] something not mdma/mda itself.

We must gather from this that dogs will occasionally not alert when the substance is not precisely the same, rather, giving off the same (correct) scent.

They could also be alerting on traces of unreacted precursors in the final MDMA.

dream0n

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2011, 02:42:02 AM »
Quote
They could also be alerting on traces of unreacted precursors in the final MDMA.

A valid point,
(come on, which of the industrial mdma chemists didn't clean their product?)   :o ;D -All of them.
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NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2011, 07:43:41 PM »
Safrole, iso-safrole, piperonal, or related compound were used in a MDMA/MDA scent discrimination experiment using trained dogs.

"more than 9 times out of 10", all dogs would alert to mdma/mda even though they had been trained to smell [ Safrole, iso-safrole, piperonal, or related compound] something not mdma/mda itself.

We must gather from this that dogs will occasionally not alert when the substance is not precisely the same, rather, giving off the same (correct) scent.

They could also be alerting on traces of unreacted precursors in the final MDMA.

untreated precursors is the only thing i can think of the dog smelling.  at least to the human nose, pure mda/mdma hcl has no odor at all.  the only time i've ever smelled odor from mda/mdma was saf/isosaf/mdp2p but after recrystallization it is odorless, at least to the human nose.  i've always assumed when people speak of the odor of mda/mdma they're referring to the precursors such as mentioned above, piperonal, saf, etc.

aniracetam

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2011, 02:01:17 PM »
Good point. I have heard in mexico they pay people to wash windshields with drug laced water to mess up the border control.

I doubt Hops would work; beer doesn't set them off.

harass a skunk, then collect the thiols
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Vesp

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2011, 08:02:44 AM »
How does that relate?
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dream0n

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2011, 06:55:07 PM »
How does that relate?

Overpowering a dog's sense might work.... but I'm not going near any skunk.
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Sedit

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2011, 07:53:54 AM »
Dogs always seem to find a skunk as anyone who has owned a dog out in the country will sadly find out sooner or later. This means that the skunks smell does not over power the dogs ability to locate. Its just something to keep in mind.
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reDEEMed

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2011, 03:53:38 AM »
Speaking from a human perspective, cocaine has a smell that is unique that smells like, well, cocaine. I can smell the HCl or the citrate and they both smell like cocaine, and I have had citrate in my possession many times in the past, so I know it still smells like coke. So do you really think a dog wont be able to tell? I'm just asking, honestly, not being a smart ass or anything. If its true that the dog is smelling for a very specific nuance that we can't even detect, that would be great news.
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enemyace

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Re: Replicating Drug Scents
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 08:08:33 AM »
I've discussed these things with a physicist friend of mine. From what I remember, he believed the odor from marijuana that detection dogs are (or were) trained to alert on is alpha-pinene(?).
Also, for consideration, detection dogs are smart, well trained, animals; however they're still animals, and thus, subject to animal behavior. Don't think to hard about fooling the dog: consider fooling the handler.

Example: small amounts of otherwise detectable amounts placed into hamburger patties, frozen, and then transported. The dog will obviously smell the drugs, but it would appear as though he were excited about the beef.
On that thread, perhaps the freezing of the patties would help to conceal the odor?
Also, perhaps there's something that you could do that would make that dog go ape-shit, and effectively render it useless! Maybe some animal scents? Cat urine? Or an actual cat! My German Shepherd is very well trained, but when you shine a laser pointer on any surface, she gets focused and won't listen to commands. She will even ignore a treat of raw meat after seeing that dot. I'm sure that those dogs won't fall for something that simple, but what if they weren't trained not to?

here's the wiki:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detection_dog

Here's an old article about the "Never Get Busted" series, which gives cursory coverage to detection dogs:
hxxp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14470003

Here's an abstract on the terpenoids in marijuana:
hxxp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165946/
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:30:29 PM by enemyace »