Author Topic: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic  (Read 220 times)

Tsathoggua

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 05:22:39 PM »
Aahhhh fuck that post got unintentionally spliced and diced over quite some time...

He was referring to the awful fallout of domoic acid-producing dinoflagellates, nasty little algae variety that ends up in shellfish (amongst quite a few other nasty marine biotoxins)

The algae bloom like crazy, get eaten by the plankton and it then works its way up the food chain and there have been massive die-offs of wildlife, gets a fair few people also. Leaves some of them as permanent basket-cases
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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

fresh1

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2012, 02:25:19 PM »
hey tsog how the fuck can you take such high doses of baclo?

If I take 50mg it will keep me asleep for <18hrs :o
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2012, 04:46:09 PM »
Got funny responses to GABA drugs. Most of them do not do much at all. He gets prescribed loprazolam, nitrazepam and chlormethiazole and the three together do not faze him. At all...he can swallow a months worth of nitrazepam in one go and it will do nothing other than provide an anxiolytic effect. Doses of chlormethiazole that would kill most people several times over do little.
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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

fatfreddy

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2012, 06:01:40 PM »
Got funny responses to GABA drugs. Most of them do not do much at all. He gets prescribed loprazolam, nitrazepam and chlormethiazole and the three together do not faze him. At all...he can swallow a months worth of nitrazepam in one go and it will do nothing other than provide an anxiolytic effect. Doses of chlormethiazole that would kill most people several times over do little.

Do you suspect that it's due to tolerance or unique brain chemistry?

jon

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2012, 02:29:28 AM »
all i can say is make sure you have enough and don't run out because you can have a heart attack or stroke.
happened to me.

fresh1

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2012, 03:38:23 AM »
wow toady thats one hell of a combo :o

It doesnt take long to get quite tolerant of these compounds, but it can take a while to stop them and return to baseline homeostasis

I agree with jon here, it could be a hell of a ride--the 'cascade' effects of stopping i.e. liver failure then kidney failure and heart attacks make me wonder about how much your dr cares about ur wellbeing!

Have you ever considered taking some GABA supplements?

fresh was on 75ug/hr fent, 160mg MScontin and 20-30mg of valium about 6moths ago when he had a majoor disagreement with his rxing dr....well, suffice to say it wasnt fun

not the 'worst' opiate wd's he's had but the combination made for 8days of NO sleep, and a good 6 weeks to get even close to 'normal' it was possibly one of the most unpleasant wd's he can recall

worse (as far as headspace goes) than coming off 7oomgs of MScontin cold, after 5years constant use--he was fuckin sick but his headspace was nowhere near as 'crooked' as from this combo

Large opiate habit wd's can make one very ill for a week or so, but this combo with the SNRI effects of the fent made for a REALLY screwy state of mind during this period and it lasted for almost 2 months!

what kinda concerns me is something which disrupts ones ability to procure these drugs (sunspot blackout, fire in factory etc)

can you imagine how FUCKED things would get IF all the folks on SS/SNRI's had to go cold T coz of lack of supply?

I'd go hide somewhere I think
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 03:46:13 AM by fresh1 »
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salat

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2012, 05:58:42 AM »
My personal theory is a downregulated parasympathetic system.  Kids may wind up being hyper because they don't have receptors for the calming down.  I read a paper that posited a disregulated serotonin system for some autistic/aspergers types due to early stress.  SSRI's are death traps for my partner and they are finding many auties can't tolerate them.   

I suspect there's a whole lot more to it than that.  One interesting lead I'm following up on has to do with brain size and development as a child.  I'm researching a bit about auties and aspies and genetics because my partner has very distinct eyebrows which his daughter also inherited.  There's names for some of those things, I just can't find his specific one.  The science under it has something to do with the closing/shaping of the skull either before or just after birth - can't remember.  I was interested because it might help his daughter understand herself better.

I've been studying Chinese herbalism and would suggest trying Dan Shen for helping recover your heart and liver.  Kudzu root is pretty good stuff too - undoes a lot of alcoholic effects in the liver and intestines.  11.50 a lb someone could get rich digging up the south.   

Salat
Salat

Tsathoggua

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2012, 04:06:37 PM »
I find a lot of auties/aspies do not react at all well to SSRIs.

Toady just got some more MXE, for when he eventually runs out of oxy. That will help blunt or prevent withdrawals. It seems to substitute well for oxy, or opioids in general, both in preventing withdrawals and as an analgesic. The NMDA antagonist properties helping stamp down on tolerance. Brilliant stuff for those uses.

As for GABA drugs, just wierd brain chemistry. Most GABA agonists just do not work on him properly. Weather GABAa modulators of GABAb agonists like baclofen. He has something wierd going on as far as adrenergic drugs go. He needs to take an alpha2 adrenoreceptor agonist to suppress jitters and akathisia. As far as his liver and kidneys, he had an abnormal liver/kidney test a couple of years back, but all that was was that serum albumin levels were just slightly on the high side of normal, nothing to worry about at all there.

He doesn't think his GABA drug issues are to do with tolerance, he doesn't use them that often at all. Mainly because they don't work properly. The doses he can take without phasing him whatsoever are quite rediculous, but how OFTEN he uses them, not very often, his scripts just mount up until he needs to take a huge great dose to do something so he always has plenty of spares. The amount of times he even uses his scripts for any of them at all is not very many.

The same goes for crosstolerant drugs like pregabalin. Never tried gabapentin, but pregabalin, even at several grams just does not get him high, and its not fantastic for his neuropathic pain either. Better than nothing, but not great.

Hopefully his MXE arrives soon, that way he can temporarily taper down his oxy until his next script is due. Withdrawals blow, but he isn't likely to have his pain fixed any time soon either. And of course he is physically dependent through having such long term pain. Toady just got referred to a pain clinic, as his docs don't know what the hell to do anymore. Really quite annoying. He would prefer being switched to a pain med with NMDA antagonist effects. Most countries keep at least one in their arsenal, that way he could knock the pregabalin on its head, he has loads of the stuff anyway. Just not this country, unless a racemic methadone brand is available.

As for fent, its notorious for downregulating MOR fast. Short acting, highly potent opioids or other drugs in general tend to produce a very rapid tachyphylaxis and are hard to maintain stably on even at regular, non-abusive doses. He had a problem with being on dihydrocodeine, getting regular scripts, due to its short duration of action. He prefers being on a long acting drug with a short acting one available to provide a small bolus dose with a fast onset when needs be.

Trying to get that done for the alpha2 adrenoreceptor agonist he takes, tizanidine, at the moment. He doesn't function well without, and wants to add in clonidine as his main drug of that class, with tizanidine available to provide a top-up dose to generally suppress his adrenal output when the clonidine proves not to be enough. At the moment he takes OCs and oxynorm, IR oxy for when it just doesn't give enough analgesia, a low dose of IR oxy tends to make all the difference dealing with his chronic pain while the OCs provide a steady long term state.

He just has half his OC supply as usual, which is going to be a nuisance, but MXE will take care of that. A downregulated parasympathetic nervous system is an interesting theory salat, it might just tie in with having to squash noradrenergic/adrenergic output as a theory not too badly.

Early stress...oh he has been through way too many highly stressful experiences, repeated false arrests, doing jail time etc. Hence his PTSD.
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

fresh1

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2012, 08:11:50 AM »

SSRI's are death traps for my partner and they are finding many auties can't tolerate them.   

yes the SSRIs are a weird beast, I have a neighbor who I think is a bit ? hard to say..aspie..(never really liked that classification) who is on Venlafaxin (Effexor) and a bunch of other shit as well, and he has some very strange behavior from time to time. Not sure if its the drugs or just him ???
Quote
because my partner has very distinct eyebrows which his daughter also inherited. 

lol classic stuff salat, sorry for laughing but it sounds pretty funny!

I have a dutch friend who has the classic neanderthal brow,(with the eyebrows from hell) but fortunately not the brain! He's actually very smart

Yes many chinese herbs work well, but they usually taste like shit!
To say they are hard to swallow is an understatement!  Shrooms have a taste I can JUST handle, but still make me gag if I dont slam em back in solution
the chinese herbs my friendly (and good, trained in china as a teenager, but is thai :o) accupuncturist has given me at times are WORSE!

Hey Toady have you ever heard of Proglamide? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proglumide
Quote
Proglumide (Milid) is a drug that inhibits gastrointestinal motility and reduces gastric secretions. It acts as a cholecystokinin antagonist,[1] which blocks both the CCKA and CCKB subtypes.[2] It was used mainly in the treatment of stomach ulcers,[3][4] although it has now been largely replaced by newer drugs for this application.

An interesting side effect of proglumide is that it enhances the analgesia produced by opioid drugs,[5] and can prevent or even reverse the development of tolerance to opioid drugs.[6][7] This can make it a useful adjuvant treatment to use alongside opioid drugs in the treatment of chronic pain conditions such as cancer, where opioid analgesics may be required for long periods and development of tolerance reduces clinical efficacy of these drugs

I want to give it a go!
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2012, 11:57:31 AM »
Yes I hae heard of it.
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

fresh1

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2012, 07:14:50 AM »
I like the sound of that " it can prevent or reverse the tolerance to opiod drugs" fuck yeah! my kinda drug!
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