Author Topic: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic  (Read 220 times)

Dr. Tox

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Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« on: November 30, 2011, 11:43:38 PM »
I'd bee interested to know if anyone (salat?) has any further experience with tianeptine in treating anxiety as it does look promising. I've used baclofen successfully for it before but I ran out of stash.  :-\

I take about 12mg of tizanidine at night to sleep but I'm one of those people who sometimes experience hallucinations from it and while that's kinda fun at times, it can be annoying. I can't take tizanidine during the day for my anxiety as it just puts me to sleep. Plus it seems to shorten my sleep period. Similar to GHB's dopamine rebound effect. In fact, I haven't slept normally since I stopped my 6 year run of monster GHB/GBL/1,4-BDO dosing.

I presently take clonaz but it's also somewhat sedating.
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

jon

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 06:19:17 AM »
be careful with clonazepam.
don't come off it suddenly.
i was on 8 milligrams a day when the doctor cut me off dry, 5 days later i have a stroke kidney failure liver failure seizures heart attack.
the list goes on.
that shit will kill you in detox.

Dr. Tox

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 11:42:48 AM »
Thank you for the heads up!
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

tryl

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 01:11:14 PM »
tianeptine, the french atypical tricyclic antidepressant famous in the russian junkie underground for the ungodly rush that comes with crushing some 30-40 pills and shooting that insta-gangrene.. supposedly so irresistable they shoot it til their flesh starts coming off of their skeleton and after...  actually most shocking videos about the so-called 'krokodil' are about tianeptine, not desomorphine.

never thought that shit was anything worth my while.

too bad you're out of baclo. if it's safe to import, i can supply you any time.
it has done wonders for me, and anybody i have recommended it to for that matter.
as an anxiolytic and anti-depressant (why isn't there more research done on GABA-b's i wonder, they've been far more effective than anything that messes with the 5ht reception), and even anti-addiction (they are currently running trails on it in the netherlands.. i discovered by accident that it kills my opiate cravings before it was even mentioned in the literature).

my GABAnergic system is by now a torn up vaginal abyss though, if i take baclo i start with 100+mg and build up to somewhere around 200-250. you do get hooked (no surprise there), but i've never had any problems with it. i just noticed once or twice when i don't take it for a day i start getting shaky and in pretty much the same place where i was at when i was abusing G and would run out, but unlike it i've always easily tapered down and off in a week or less.

from what's available, doesn't diphenhydramine do it for ya?
we have a formulation of diphenhyd here for anxiety.

"In the words of Archimedes, give me a lever long enough and a place to rest it... or I shall kill one hostage every hour."

Sedit

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 04:40:51 AM »
be careful with clonazepam.
don't come off it suddenly.
i was on 8 milligrams a day when the doctor cut me off dry, 5 days later i have a stroke kidney failure liver failure seizures heart attack.
the list goes on.
that shit will kill you in detox.

Yes benzos are bad if abused but do you realize that what you just listed off are the side effects of opiates and SSRIs that Benzos coverup? Think about that for a minute and before you take that next hit ok :-\

Plus your doctor was a fool for ever having ANYONE on 8mg of Clonazapam per day.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

jon

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 06:41:05 AM »
A damned fool, anything over 4 is high, comming off 8 is, well deadly.
I would have prefered death over this set of circumstances.
benzos cover up some of the side effects of ssri's, sure they do, prozac always made me anxious and tempremental.
you want to hear about a travesty?
how about the GAO report on foster childeren being drugged to death by the psychiatric profession?
Some are infants under 1 year old being given antipsycotic drugs
now that's a damned shame.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204397704577072743861074270.html
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 07:18:21 AM by jon »

nigluhS

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 03:35:26 PM »

Plus your doctor was a fool for ever having ANYONE on 8mg of Clonazapam per day.

something tells me this wasn't your standard doctor/patient relationship that most of the general public experiences, LOL
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fresh1

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 04:57:35 PM »
Quote

Yes benzos are bad if abused but do you realize that what you just listed off are the side effects of opiates and SSRIs that Benzos coverup

So sad but true. What really pisses me off, is that the plethora of SSRI type drugs, while "possibly useful" if judiciously used, unfortunately are not.

And those of us who have had the displeasure of having taken these insidious compounds, KNOW the multitude of weird effects these drugs have, yet the WORST PART is, the 'average punter' who's gone to the Dr for some help coz he's feeling a bit out of sorts, gets given Effexor (venlafaxin) or another "new generation" SSRI, which will have them coming back FEELING WORSE!   Which gives the Dr 'reasons' to try OTHER drugs, to "couteract" the "side effects" of the first drug, ad infinitum, ad NASUEM :o

 Seriously, if a worse snake oil scam has been played on the public, I dont know about it, Bernie Madoff was a beginner compared to BigPharma.

 
Quote
Plus your doctor was a fool for ever having ANYONE on 8mg of Clonazapam per day

Strangely sedit I beg  to differ, although I think the drugs combined,and the period of time a person takes them, were the culprit with jon, ime, when clonazepam is taken at doses of <2mg a day there are few problems stopping, and when taken in doses of 10-20mg pd for short periods (its the best benzo for opiate withdrawals ;)) again there were no negative effects experienced, HOWEVER, when combined with a drug that raises seretonin levels, and clonazepam, which used to be a favored maintenance drug for epileptics (at 2-4mg pd) AND THEN STOPPING someone with elevated seretonin levels cold, off 8mg of clonazepam, IS ASKING FOR SEIZURES! >:( 

I'm just glad you're still with us jonmon ;D Once again your mystical metabolism saves the day 8)

f1 ;)
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Sedit

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 05:54:04 PM »
You know my take on it, I was on Lexapro and Clonazapam for two years 10mg/1.5mg for about 3 years and started having seizures. It also destroyed my memory and learning ability after.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

jon

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 10:30:37 PM »
lexapro is terrible stuff last time i did that i was patently insane, stay away!

salat

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2011, 10:27:27 AM »
I've been taking Tianeptine at normal dosage (3 x12 mg)  for about 6 months now.   I have PTSD and it has helped enormously.  I have to order it from overseas and the mail is unreliable, so I ran out of it once during over the summer.  Had about 24 hours of nonstop anxiety and then it calmed down again.  Considering I had to take an early retirement, my house is being foreclosed on and I need to file bankruptcy I got a lot of shit to be anxious about.  No physical symptoms to speak of in withdrawal and if I miss a pill may not notice it except for an increase in anxious thoughts. 

It took over a year to come off Effexor and if I missed a pill while on it I was psycho 3 days later and had no sex drive to speak of - like you said they give you another pill for that - gave me wellbutrin for that but it didn't help (this was years ago).

 Tianeptine doesn't seem to have any side effects except loss of appetite which doesn't hurt me any!!

Supposedly it works by modulating the HPA and increasing neurogenesis.  I've taken clonidine and benzos and don't care for either because they shut me down even more than normal.  In general I have a hard time getting motivated (probably downregulated adrenaline receptors).

Ignore about 90% of what you read about tianeptine since recent research has shown a lot of early assumptions and studies about it were wrong or misinterpreted.  You gotta love a drug that put the wrench into the cozy theories about serotonin!

They wanted to put my husband on seroquel when he was locked up for suicidal and he refused - would have killed him I think.  I suspect that you Aspie/Autie types have some sort of abnormalities in your serotonin functioning.  He can chew through benzos too.  He tried to OD 2 years ago on 130mg valium + everclear and it took four EMS to subdue him and get him tied down to transport.

Salat

« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:32:37 AM by salat »
Salat

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2011, 10:40:04 AM »
As a side note I had requested some papers on psoralea corifolia a while back.  Finally got around to making some up and trying it.  It definitely had a mood brightening effect.  I made a simple decoction they way the chinese do (my lab has been in moth balls since the summer house hunting trip).  Nasty tasting stuff - I thought it tastes like dirty river water but no my husband says its more like "the garage floor".

It's called Bu Gui Zhi by the chinese and is supposedly a DAT and NOR reuptake inhibitor - another paper said an MAOI.

My husband(an Aspie) took some and said it gave him a dreamy sort of feel.  I've been taking it for 2 days it gave me a strong feeling of well being yesterday and head tingles today.

Salat
Salat

EU1920xy

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 01:10:46 PM »
tianeptine in therapeutic doses (3x12.5mg) is without effects, many people confirmed this. But more tablets can cause euphoria - the tolerance rises very quickly. 6-10x12.5mg tab it safe for the beginning someone said

Tsathoggua

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 12:48:07 AM »
Jon...you are already patently insane:P

Salat...interesting you say your hubby can chew through benzos. I'm the same. Valium, chlordiazepoxide, temazepam and lorazepam, the relatively speaking, weaker end of the benzo scale, I would likely get, from a two-week script (standard procedure here is to rx for short periods only, up to 14 days, if must, up to 1 month) of 5mg diazzies, maybe 2 or three doses, not looking for recreational use, just for sleep.

I have always, as long as I can remember, had trouble sleeping. I suspect that its an adrenergic thing, possibly, although of course, such a prediction is only an educated guess, it isn't as if one can magically measure levels via microdialysis and other such techniques (and of course I wouldn't try, self-trepanning and insertion of cannulas, microdialysis probes, cementing them in with dental cement is something I need like a hole in the head. Chances are I would handle it better than I do dental work though:P)

Just going from piloerection, jittery overstimulation identical to that produced by drugs or conditions resulting from their use that are known to case a flood of catecholamines, very low or nonexistent appetite when thats happening and I don't take any tizanidine.

I see another mention of the latter drug. Hallucinations? I've had some strange experiences on it, such as a sort-of lucid dream state, being much more aware than usual during a dream, along with talking out loud, and apparently saying some really strange fucking things:P

I find it works best as a sleep aid plugged. It WILL knock you out cold. Doesn't take much to do it either. Plugged tizanidine has even put me out during a stimulant experience, several times. At the tail end of AMT, when all thats left is muscle relaxation, a warm glow, sensory tactile enhancement and tiredness, although insomnia from the amphetamine-like properties of the drug, depending on dosage preventing sleep. Or when I started to notice cognitive deficit relating to sleep deprivation after dosing desoxy following staying up all night reading journal articles on cognitive neuroscience, org.chem, various molecular biology topics and going through the name reaction pages on wikipedia, to broaden my knowledge. Started noticing that ability to concentrate and focus, as well as my already problematic memory were beginning to get poor (or poorer), so I could stay up a while longer reading, I took a low dose of desoxy (500mcg initially, plugged, and redosed a while later with another small dose, typical doses for desoxypipradrol around 2-4mg, its strong fucking stuff, although subtle enough to be dangerous if you don't know what to expect from a pretty clean DARI. doi: 10.1177/0269881111430733
J Psychopharmacol December 7, 2011 0269881111430733 stating that a 7fold peak increase in electrically evoked DA release, 4 times greater than that our good ol' charlie, and extension of the half-life of DA by 15 fold, compared with 5fold using coke as a standard. Its also very, very long acting, which seems to have led on many occasions to people thinking they could treat it like they do other stimulants, giving the drug a bad name, redosing compulsively will just lead to several weeks of psychotic sleep deprivation almost certainly, due to its extreme half-life)

When I got tired of it, not of continuing to read, but of the desoxy, as I am really no fan of stimulants, as they are just not my thing. I took a couple of sleepers, chlormethiazole, I think and waited for them to kick in, then dosed some 20mg of tizanidine rectally (this is a large dose, be well aware of how you respond to the drug before dosing that sort of level, esp. rectally, and avoid if you have low BP) and couldn't even finish my rollup before it knocked me out cold. It acts damn fast plugged and even a small dose, 4mg is enough to induce sleep within a few minutes.

I find it a very effective anxiolytic, taken sublingually. I don't have a clinical anxiety problem, but to help deal with situations causing it, I'll take 2-4mg under the tongue beforehand, works a treat.

I take it daily, as a preventer med for overloading of the autie variety, although it works for that acutely as well as a prophylactic. In a sense, by analogy, sort of like how asthma inhalers (not that autism is a disease like asthma of course) come in two main types, preventers and rescue inhalers, the former being long acting and taken regularly to stop an asthma attack and a fast-acting, shorter lasting rescue inhaler for stopping attacks once one has started.

Being that its similar to clonidine, although shorter acting and some 40x less potent as a hypotensive agent (presumably due to differences in potency at imidazoline receptors between the two drugs), and clonidine being rx'd in PTSD, to help deal with hyperarousal (I find it helps to an incredible degree with nightmares, I almost never get any at all on tizanidine). Having PTSD also, might be something of use to you Salat?

What is tianeptine like subjectively? I would like to try it, if only out of interest, as its a strange drug, pharmacologically speaking. Although I wouldn't know where to get it, at least not to the best of my knowledge.

Tryl, what info on krokodil do you have that suggests its not desomorphine (or rather, an assortment of byproducts and noxious shite that can't have been cleaned much, if at all, given the short duration of action of the tiny amount of desomorphine they get left with (the russian junkies) and the time it takes to prepare (around 1.5 hours and 90 minutes respectively according to the testimony of recovered addicts) Tianeptine is stated to have a half life of 2.5 hours on wikipedia though, putting the two into around the same ballpark figure for duration of action.

The krokodil preparation being desomorphine rather than tianeptine makes more sense to me, looking at the tissue damage resulting from IV use, it doesn't look gangrenous, tissue isn't blackened, but rather, the result of frank necrotic death of exposed tissue. Desomorphine must be quite something, if its that reinforcing, enough to make a junkie with his necrotic radius/ulna showing, and the flesh of his forearm stripped of flesh right down to the bone.

Given the known method of preparing krokodil, and reagents used in manufacture, red P, thionyl chloride, I2, naptha, acids and bases, and it being doubtful the users could clean it up much in the way of a post-reaction workup, not to mention that I just bet they aren't exercising much in the way of PH control of the final witches brew of nasties I think it fits, in terms of likely effects on injection.

Apparently the average lifespan of a junky that starts using krokodil is usually less than 2 years. I've read it said that every hit takes a year off your life, I'd dismiss such a statement out of hand when said of most drugs as propaganda in the war on drug user, seeing as how it always is. But I can well believe it in this case. I read an article just yesterday about a young woman who had managed to kick it in an missionary-operated xtian facility, although she went back to it, and had to do it all over again. This woman had escaped the massive tissue damage that goes with krokodil, but was left with severe motor function deficit as well as pronounced neurological problems, which speaks against it being tianeptine in my view.
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EU1920xy

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 06:39:59 AM »
Tianeptine effects are boosted by empty stomach and strong coffee - caffeine, but sometimes violent nausea comes. But when no, after a dose depend on tolerance, which rises very quickly, and you must abstain a long time to get it down. 8-20 pills produce a very nice high, soft euphoric feeling, not like opiate, more like mdma. Everything is beautiful, nature, etc, nice thoughts and so on. Its very short lived, say hour or two. Then a crash comes, terrible depression. Not easy to cope with it, but some benzos and sleep help. Its nothing for long use, but from time to time say twice a year its good, the tolerance disappears. Thre are known cases of using 90x12.4mg tablets at once daily. But thats expensive. Therapeutic dose 1-2 tablet 3 times daily.

Of course do no shit like IVing this stuff, oral use is safe and there are no side effects except occasiinal nausea

Tsathoggua

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 08:08:53 AM »
Hadn't planned on IVing any. Would have to find some first anyway:P

Would be a bit difficult to IV it even if I wanted to. its almost impossible for me to find a vein, Really punished them with a MXE habit not so long ago.

I will ONLY shoot pills when they have been thoroughly cleaned, using a micron filter, then sometimes oxycontin, but most of the time I either take it orally when I need it to act sustained release, or powdered, and dissolved in water for plugging. (best one let it sit for 10-15 minutes before administration, to allow for as much oxy as possible to leave the battered and bruised remnants of the time release matrix without having to sit there, releasing over a shortened period in one's rectum:P

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salat

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 03:31:54 PM »
It's dangerous to shoot that stuff - they put some sort of stuff in it to help with intestinal stuff. 

Have clonidine but only take it if I'm getting close to psychotic.  I am very sensitive to rebound from it - even if I only take one pill to go to sleep I have to ramp down the next day.  You should have seen what predisone did to me!  That was the last time i will ever trust an MD.

When you take tianeptine in it's prescribed dose it reduces anxiety and makes you less likely to fly off the handle or be paranoid and defensive.  The main selling point for me was the not conclusive evidence that it works by regulating glutamate and it helps repair the brain via neurogenesis.  It isn't something you could take and expect instant anxiety relief.  For me its the only thing that has helped me come close to feeling normal.  Going off it abruptly was not fun - nonstop generalized anxiety for 24 hours.

I used Kava and California Poppy to help get to sleep early on.  The muscle relaxant effect seems to be the most important thing, hard to go to sleep when you're in pain from spasming thighs.

Meditation and the binaural stuff has helped also.  Some of the binaural can help substitute for sleep.  I can listen to 30 minutes and mentally feel like I've had a long sleep.  Not sure how healthy that is, but it beats being brain asleep.  Not being able to sleep after the trauma is believed to be a contributing cause to developing PTSD.

My psych taught me some stuff from martial arts about relaxing the "one point" that is somewhat effective in calming down the HPA.   I just have a hard time getting it to relax sometimes and it tenses up automatically in response to certain places and triggers.   I have come to believe that we can exert a great deal of control over our Autonomic Nervous system by using things like that to communicate "I'm safe" to the Amygdala.  That is part of the goal of CBT - to put you into rational space so you can override what's coming out of the back door.  It's just hard to do when the glucocorticoids have already caused brain fog in your forebrain.

I can take 40 mg adderall and go to sleep and do need stimulants to get motivated enough to do anything.

I've noticed that many Auties seem to have a lot of symptoms of stress related illness - the HPA does have chemicals for keeping you awake during battle.   I think Auties childhoods are rarely anything but highly stressful.  Lots of research confirming HPA alterations in abused children.  Abuse doesn't have to be intentional. 

Dissociation is also a side effect of PTSD.  Scary stuff gets forgotten.  And you can be completely unaware of stuff happening in your body.

Salat
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 03:50:22 PM by salat »
Salat

jon

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 06:21:23 PM »
i've heard horror stories of people injecting tianeptine.

tregar

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 03:32:21 PM »
Just like Sedit, about 10 years ago, i was on clonazepam at night (1mg or so)....and it was the worst experience coming off that stuff, thankfully i found a forum on "bezo help" and learned that if I could get my doctor to prescribe me like a hundred of the 1mg valium pills, since 10mg valium = 1mg clonazepam, then I could decrease my dose every week by 1mg, very slowly tappering, which finally helped me to easily get off the stuff over the course of many months, it worked (the slow taper)...don't try and do otherwise or you can have a seizure, nasty stuff.

Tsathoggua

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Re: Tianeptine as an anxiolytic
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 01:03:44 PM »
Shit, I hate to think what would happen were I to get suddenly cut off..chlormethiazole, loprazolam,  pregabalin, nitrazepam-christ, I don't know what it is...it sure is not tolerance.....but fuck me sideways with a cluster bomb....a month's rx supply of nitrazepam,  two weeks of chlormethiazole, which seems to suggest I'm not just insensitive to benzos, and Z-drugs, and strangely almost everything else affecting GABAaRs With the sole other exception of muscimol. The only GABAa agonists I have ever taken that are definitively effective are either propofol, alcohol, barbital and those binding to the loreclezole binding site.

I have yet to try an agonist binding at the neurosteroid site....anyone think pregnenolone could easily be reduced to pregnanolone? PregnAnalone is an agonist at the neurosteroid binding site. And inhalational anaesthetics also work, although plentyof those act at all sorts of extraneous targets to the two ionotropic GABA systems, GABAa and GABAc aka GABAa-Rho homomer type receptors...anyone know their distribution within the brain and or spinal cord?

Oh boy.....thank fuck for the mail man and his rapid delivery. Lets just say Dr.Toady is about to deploy the nuclear option in the war on screaming fucking well agony. To start with, by his eye, ten mil of methoxetamine and an equal dose of oxycodone up north.

All my benzos, chlormethiazole etc I get legitimately scripted, but the docs would be shocked to the core if they actually knew my dosing pattern. I only get a handful of doses out of the three scripts combined. Although I won't use them often, actually the alpha2 adrenoreceptor agonists like clonidine and tizanidine, appear almost made for a perfect sleep inducer. I'd go without my tizanidine script just about as soon as I'd tell the doc to shove my oxy script through the shredder and send me home with APAP.

I just read in the daily mail an article about methoxetamine. That is NOT a good sign. If there is a god, the british govt. will not ban that drug. Its the only drug that is effective against the severest pain I get. The sort that last night had me lying down on the opposite side on the stairs and dragging myself up because I could not stand. Doc thinks the hip issues, or some of, might be bursitis.

Don't come off benzos, barbs, chloral, etc. quickly, there be bad mojo. These are drugs to be treated with the utmost respect. Do not forget, that while glutamate is the principle excitatory neurotransmitter GABA is the main inhibitory neurotransmittter. GABA receptors are somewhat safer to fuck with than glutamate receptors, which can do SERIOUS and quite irrecoverable damage.


If you fry your hippocampus with say, domoic acid shellfish poisoning (an AMPA receptor orthosteric agonist....just look at the  wrecks left behind, the video evidence Toady sees sea-lions Toady seizing and  rocking after blowing 
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.