This is the latest psychedelic I'm into: 4-aco-dmt (which is "acetyl-psilocin".....compare to psilocin which is 4-ho-dmt). It appears to be "the one RC" that is to be ranked among the 3 big classics.
It also appears from some reports it may be possible to convert the 4-aco-dmt to 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) by simple hydrolysis, i'll go into this at the end of this thread, and also include receptor binding data for 4-ho-dmt compared to LSD. Last part of this paper will deal with easy conversion of 4-aco-dmt (acetyl-psilocin) to the all time classic 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) for those willing to experiment....does it work? you be the judge. But if your solution starts to turn blue (as mushrooms do when bruised) it may serve as a visual indicator.
Important: The fact that so many report 4-aco-dmt to be sedating/relaxing indicates it probably hits all 4 of the 5-HT1 receptor families, which is excellent and indicates a high degree of 100% mind-manifesting psychedelic activity, as 5-HT1 receptors not only shut off serotonin firing but are the most populous of all the 5-HT receptors in the brain (over 70%). mescaline/LSD/4-ho-dmt all hit the 5-HT1 receptors with great force, way stronger than 5-HT2A/5-HT2C. The 5-HT1 receptors are implicated in counter-balancing the stimulating activity of 5-HT2A/5-HT2C, for imparting a tranquil/zen like meditative quality to the trip, not only that but they are implicated in mystical insights, archaic imagery, access to deep memories and the universal collective consiousness.
I've used 25i-nbome for well over a year, but I'm looking for a more "well-rounded" psychedelic that hits all the receptors (like LSD which hits over a dozen receptors) instead of just 25i-nbome which hits only 2 receptors (5-ht2a/5-ht2c) with super-human-strength. In-between taking the 25i-nbome, I would take real acid at around 180 to 220ug amounts (which simply blew away the 25i-nbome) and also took 25i-nbome along with mescaline which substituted just fine in place of actual acid, worked fantastic. 25i-nbome hits these 2 receptors (5-HT2a/2c) 100 times more powerfully than acid according to Nichols (and he is right). But as Nichols states in one of his papers, LSD is actually "not that remarkable" in it's agonism at 5-ht2A/5-HT2C, LSD's unique activity and response is due to it's actions at well over 10 other receptor brain sites (see attached paper "IB_LSD by Jeremy")
25i-nbome captures the euphoria, over-flowing empathy, LOVE, humor, all the complex behavioral qualities that make us human, and the visual take-off power of LSD, the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptor part of the brain is the part of the brain that has developed most recently in our evolution...it controls higher brain functions and is what makes us for the most part uniquely human. 25i captures this part of the brain, but that is about it, it only hits 2 receptors with any amount of super-power strength (the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors)...just as LSD does...however, remember that LSD and psilocin, dmt, mescaline all hit over a handfull of OTHER important receptors with way way more power than they even hit 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors, this is paramount to a quality nature-made psychedelic, you NEED to hit the 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, 5-HT7, 5-HT6, 5-HT5A receptors with way more potency than 5-ht2a/5-ht2c to end up with a 100% mind-manifesting trip....the 25i trip feels like "half-a-psychedelic trip" because it is so lacking in not being able to hit the other brain receptors....it will always be "one-dimensional" because of this, this can only be corrected by taking 300 to 400mg of mescaline along with your low-level (350 to 500ug) dose of 25i. If you don't have mescaline, you can substitute any other well-rounded psychedelic like psilocyn, 4-aco-dmt, etc. 25i-nbome can get you really deep-thinking, but what's the point of all that deep thinking if the rest of the brain/mind is not involved? We need total mind-expansion, not just 1/2 of mind-expansion.
25i-nbome does work well in combination with mescaline for a very well-rounded psychedelic experience however. It appears that 4-aco-dmt is just the well-rounded psychedelic RC I've really been looking for all this time.
I look forward to in a week getting to try 4-aco-dmt. After reading over 1000 pages on this psychedelic, it is believed by most all to be ranked among the classics LSD, mescaline, and mushrooms. From all my reading, it appears to hit a very wide range of receptors just as LSD and mushrooms do. It is also sedating and relaxing (which indicates to me that it probably hits all 4 of the 5-HT1 receptor families, excellent!) so combing this with a very small dose of stimulating 25i-nbome (only about 300ug, 25i is a potent 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonist) should work great in combination.
I look forward to combining the following:
* 4-aco-dmt all on it's own at different doses
* mescaline + 4-aco-dmt
* 25i-nbome (300ug) + 4-aco-dmt
The 4 experience reports I cite below are from 4 of the most experienced psychedelic users on the forums out there:
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bluedolphin:
"This stuff is frickin fantastic (4-aco-dmt).
Very smooth comeup.... the chemical seems to physically and mentally relax you before the trip really starts, and people have agrreed with me that this seems to cut back the anxiety that a mushroom trip would frequently have during the comeup.
Seems like a very pure psychedelic to me.... a very high signal to noise ratio here.
Put simply, I prefer it over DMT, shrooms, LSD, and everything else I've ever tried.
8mg gave me a mild +3 with a pretty quick peak.
12mg was only a little stronger wih a longer peak.
Snorted it appears you only need like 1/3 of the oral dose. Not 1/2. Less.
I have not felt the desire to take a larger dose than that, but other people have. Almost everyone agrees it is better than any shroom trip they ever had and a few of them had the best trips of their lives.
Unfortunately I know me saying this will probably encourage people to do stupid things with this chemical. Oh well. It is what it is.
No nausea.
Smoother comeup.
The chemical is more relaxing on the body and mind.
Visuals are slightly different than shrooms but only slightly.... I wouldn't call them better or worse but CERTAINLY better than any other "RC" I've tried. Only DOC is in the same ballpark as this one.
4-aco-MiPT is crap compared to this stuff.
Personally I only like to eat the BEST psychedelic I can when I choose to indulge these days, which is rarely. For me that means I will only be eating psilacetin these days, save the occasional LSD trip if the time and feel is right.
For me and the people I know who have eaten it, this is basically tripping on shrooms minus everything that sucks about shrooms.
I would take 4-aco-DMT or mushrooms over Ayahuasca any time. Pure DMT, both in its oral maoi activated form and smoked is too much of a sensory and hyperdimensional assualt. You are shown too much and at too rapid of a pace. The result is fear and disorientation in strong doses.
Shrooms will dissolve your ego gradually, at least giving you a chance to come to terms with your impending death. 4-aco-DMT seems even more gentle. I believe both these substances lend their journeys to better insight and contemplation, and life lessons in general because they give your brain a chance to catch up with your soul.
Furthermore oral DMT is just too freakin creepy. I can't think of any other drug that makes so many damn eyeballs pop out of thin air. I don't mind entities and "life-forces"... I even experience these on LSD, like some angel is hovering right over my shoulders or something. But goddamn all those DMT eyeballs, that's just creepy.
4-aco-DMT differs from ayahuasca significantly to me. First of all, the "trances". Both will give you trances. But 4-aco-DMT is relaxing and smooth sailing beauty. Aya knocks your ass into a trance and then 1000000 gods rape you in the asshole. The former is much more useful and enjoyable for me.
Then the visuals. 4-aco-DMT is just beautiful. Really, right up there with the classics: Shrooms and LSD. But, sparkly. Like everything is painted with glitter paint in super high resolution. It's unique, a bit less organic in appearance then shrooms, but really beautiful, almost a bit more towards the "cosmic" end of the spectrum where LSD lies.
Aya is just crazy freakin visuals. Eyeballs, rivers in the floor, all kinds of entities and weird shit goin on. Things change appearance between levels of dimension. Things levitate quite easily. Anything that looks remotely organic to begin with will grow/die/rebirth/grow/die in a cycle and take on quite a life of its own. More "organic" than shrooms but also a bit towards the "alien" end of spectrum. (Salvia is there too, yet very different)
Then the body buzz. 4-aco-DMT is relaxing, feels so good for a psychedelic! Really, who could ask for more. You feel the god-energy flowing through you, your heart rate isn't even elevated, its great.
Aya is outta control in this aspect. It can go from relaxing one minute to feeling like you grabbed a live power line the next minute. And of course this intense shocking buzz is linked to your psychological and visual state, which only exascerbates PANIC!
.... 4-aco-DMT over Ayahuasca any day. "
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xorkoth:
"I finally used my one sample of 4-AcO-DMT the other night, at a little under 30mg, and it was astounding! The walls of my apartment looked like windows into other dimensions, where I saw an endless web of connected human-like figures with no faces, and my thoughts had taken on a vastly different path, where I felt as if I was constantly switching identities as I plunged down strange tunnels behind my eyes. It was quite indescribable. Also, color was dramatically enhanced and every object or surface I saw seemed to be giving off an inner glow.
The only thing is, after the first hour and a half, I laid down to listen to music and meditate, and before I knew it, I woke up with a start after the entire 80-minute CD was over, with absolutely no memory of that stretch of time at all. By that time, the experience had died down significantly, and I attempted to redose with my last 10-12mg, which didn't really do anything, unfortunately. I don't know if I somehow fell asleep, or if I (more likely) went so far out that I had a complete ego loss so that my human self had no memory of it.
It was remarkable in so many ways... one of the heaviest trips I've had in a long time. Of particular note was that unlike mushrooms (4-HO-DMT), I experienced not even the slightest hint of anxiety ot fear or negativity. It was really quite blissful, even in the midst of huge distortions and alien thoughts.
I look forward to trying it again. I'd like to write an actual trip report but I can't remember the peak, so I'm not sure if I will.
I also find 4-AcO-DMT and mushrooms to be different enough to warrant separate usage. I find mushrooms to be very emotionally intense and "jarring", whereas 4-AcO-DMT was extraordinarily smooth and calm, physically and emotionally. The headspace is similar but mushrooms are definitely more forceful in content. Both come up extremely fast and are very mentally "far-out". They both have that creepy, twisted, sometimes dark feel to them, but 4-AcO-DMT sheltered me from the darkness of the space.
In my (limited) opinion, mushrooms are more profound, or at least more easily profound, but 4-AcO-DMT has the distinct advantage of being much easier and friendlier. Also, the headspace is different enough that it warrants separate usage aside from mushrooms. I found 4-AcO-DMT to be more similar to DMT than mushrooms, including the almost joyful overrriding emotion than comes with DMT.
Of course, this is all based off of a single, albiet very intense, experience with 4-AcO-DMT, and a last mushroom trip over 2 years ago."
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santadog:
"I’ve had three trials with this one so far and I’m blown away. I started with an 18mg oral dose, then combined 16mg with 8mg 4-HO-Dipt a week later, and finally combined 18mg with 8mg 4-Aco-Mipt just last weekend.
I hope I can add at least a little to what others have been saying.
After the first experience it’s clear that 4-Aco-DMT makes all the other characters in my tryptamine collection pale in comparison. It is by far the friendliest, easiest and most versatile. I hate to say it but it’s almost like ‘psychedelic cotton candy’ in the way it just melts into your psyche during comeup. Like others have said, the comeup is actually relaxing. CEV’s appear first (rotating kaleidoscope images with eyes), then OEV’s (multi-layered auras, patterns, music-driven shifting colors, huge arcs of energy) at about 45mins. Suddenly music becomes very euphoric. Then it gets DEEP.
It also seems to be a great ‘helper’ for the other tryptamines when combined, like it actually aids them in coming on and showing their true spirit. Hard to explain. It’s kind of like introducing a shy friend of yours around the party, 4-Aco-DMT takes it’s brother tryptamines by the hand and introduces them to your mind in a much more friendly and direct way than before.
Both combinations were spectacular but different. It’s like pushing exactly all the right buttons to connect to god. I was reminded just how very deep and complex reality is, how we are normally so bound up in ignorance that we’re not even aware of it, and that someone else is entirely in charge. Any concept that man has given to god over the millennia is completely inadequate, yet during these experiences I was given absolute access to god. It lives within us all. There is so much going on behind the scenes of our everyday lives and I feel like I understand those things so much better now. Especially after integrating and re-tripping a week later. Where will our ever-evolving brains take us next?
It was very easy to meditate to music for hours, very touching and reflective. I also went outside for a hike after the peak each time. My hearing was quite amplified and the mountains around my house seemed so different, steeper with the scary impression of a swirling vortex down in the valley that I could hear. People’s houses looked extraterrestrial. I also talked on the phone with no problem and had animalistic sex with my trip sitter.
I plan on combining this one with 4-HO-Mipt and/or 4-Aco-Dipt in the future. Then maybe a PEA. After a long enough break to integrate the first experiments!"
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nitrogen:
"Had the chance to dose some 25i on NYE - made up complexed buccal strips ala tregar - made them 500mcg apiece. This was done by dissolving 10mg of 25i and 90mg of HPBCD in 2cc of everclear in a spoon (heat was required). The liquid was drawn up in a syringe and .1cc was laid on each strip of filter paper. The 25i was in hcl form and a light yellow, very dense, micro-crystalline/sparkly powder - similar to the consistency of the 5-meo-dipt back in the day - much denser by far than a 2C-x..
I dosed 750mcg and then another 250mcg some 3 hours later. The effects were very nice - came on with a very enjoyable body high and some mild euphoria. We were out at a dance party type thing and the 25i was reasonably enjoyable in that context and very similar to 2C-x type substances. Visuals were mild but I could tell they were on the verge of being much stronger. I have found with both 2C-x and this 25i though that they are not particularly interesting in a club/festival/party atmosphere - an enhancement over being sober for sure, but nothing like the experience that LSD, mescaline, or mushrooms provide in that environment..
The 25i also had a strange body load to it - unlike the 2C-x bodyload, which is just a sort of roughness, or mild overstimulation - the 25i had me feeling a sort of pressure in my throat and chest, and like I couldn't breathe as well as I would like - this was quite disconcerting and odd because, other than that, the substance felt very clean and light on the body..
Anyhow, we went to another party and I'd been on the 25i for about 6 hours by that point - FWIW, the effects had not diminished in intensity at all. I had made up some ~8mg 4-AcO-DMT capsules which I suspect are 4-HO-DMT/psilocin at this point due to a strong smell of acetic acid that emerged after I tried to re-x the product in hot distilled water. The product had a distinct smell before which is entirely absent now. Fortunately I opted for only 1 of these capsules as the drug arrived with alarming intensity..
What was amazing about the addition of the psilocin was that not only could I not tell the difference between the effect and that of mushrooms, but that is was highly educational in terms of what a "real" psychedelic is all about. The trickster mushroom spirit arrived and the change in latitude was dramatic - any memory of the 25i headspace was brushed aside and I entered the endlessly deep, endlessly fascinating world of DMT/mushrooms. A friend of mine was also on 25i, and also took the psilocin and reported that it had the same effect on him in terms of obliterating the 25i high and making it seem trivial..
Unfortunately, I was at a quite swanky house party at this point - no one under late 20's to 30, a more mature and sophisticated crowd - not a place where anybody was just wasted and acting out of it - definitely NOT the place to have a mushroom freakout, which is what I struggled with for about an hour.. It was like the mushrooms came in and were like "GUESS WHAT BITCH?? *THIS* IS PSYCHEDELIA - WHAT YOU WERE ON BEFORE WAS CHILD'S PLAY!" - it was as though they were ridiculing the whole concept of 25i as a psychedelic and were showing me who was boss..
This was all very intense, and didn't know what to do with myself - didn't want to sit down because when I did the visions and weirdness increased and threatened to suck me down the rabbit hole - but I wasn't comfortable to stand around much either.. I found my rescue in dancing - there was a DJ who was spinning a fantastic set and, though I had been dancing all night on the 25i, the psilocin totally transformed my perception of music and the command I had over my body - my body became totally loose and under my control like nothing I'd ever felt - and the music became absolutely exquisite and extra-dimensional - the phenethylamines seem to "enhance" the experience of music - it sounds "really good", but the psilocin brought me way way deep into the universe of sound in a whole different way.. My body felt and responded to what seemed like every note of the music I heard..
I got a handle on the high after about 2 hours, but not before the psilocin "made me" take a look at some areas of my life that I had not been doing so well in - once I worked through those and came up with some (very practical) resolutions, my "bad trip" type experience, which had been occurring off and on throughout, dissipated.. My sense of humor (and the mushroom's sense of humor!) became absolutely fantastic as the experience progressed - my body and mind felt extraordinarily healthy and as though reborn.. I experienced all sorts of feelings of awe, wonder, euphoria, and so forth, in addition to the feelings of doom and terror..
Anyhow, I hadn't taken mushrooms in like 2-3 years - haven't had any in the ol stashbox.. And I'd been using so many of the phenethylamines that I'd forgot (or never quite realized) just how vastly superior DMT and the 4-substituted tryptamines (like 4-Ac0-DMT, 4-AcO-DET, 4-HO-DMT) are to these phens and NBOMe substances.. I'll still use and enjoy the phens and the NBOMe's I am sure - but I'm under no illusions that if I really want to journey and go deep into an endlessly spectacular and rich dimension, the tryptamines are where it's at..
The 25i has been compared to LSD, in terms of the headspace, and I agree that it *feels* sort of like the headspace, but what is missing is the powerfully mind-altering properties of acid. I have begun to regard "clearheaded", which is how NBOMe and other 2C's are often described, as something that can translated as "not very interesting". What goes along with a heavily "mind-altering" substance like LSD or mushrooms, is all sorts of experiences of wonder and awe, and all sorts of experiences of transcendence, of hyperdimensionality, time dilation, of experiencing "god", of being godlike - and just radically entertaining perceptions of reality. The phenthylamines often produce strong "visuals", but they don't seem to alter the fundamental fabric of reality like LSD and the tryptamines can do - and altering the fundamental fabric of reality is where things become truly interesting..
I used to value this "lack of mindfuck", or "clearheaded" experience - but the psilocin showed me just how thrilling and rewarding it can be to take a walk on the wild side, to step up and party like the self-transforming machine elves do
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Side note - I have only tried the 4-aco-dmt that I received and converted to fumarate salt, and then treated with the hot distilled water. It may be that treating it with the hot dH20, letting it sit out for a day or so, then heating it again to achieve crystallization, is a legit "tek" for de-acetylating the compound into 4-HO-DMT. Everything about the mushroom experience was present in that 8mg dose I took - the melting body high, the experience of "the other", and those massive, face stretching yawns.. The visuals maybe moved a tad quicker, and looked a bit more like the way the DMT visuals do, but I wouldn't know the difference, and I've taken mushrooms many dozens of times.. Contrast this to 4-AcO-DET, which I do not find similar to mushrooms except that it's a deep, zany tryptamine excursion - mushrooms though have a very distinct body feeling and sense of "other" that was unmistakable.. "
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Jeff:
"4-Aco-DMT is awesome, i used to trip on shrooms once a month, about 6 months ago this replaced shrooms for me. Dont need to go through all the effort of growing shrooms anymore lol. Personally i like 4-Aco-DMT better, the body tention is completely gone for me, it is a very clean high for me. The only thing i find different from 4-ACO-DMT and shrooms is the visuals are a lot more DMT like then Shrooms. On doses 30mg and higher it felt like i was almost going to BLAST OFF.
You know when you smoke DMT in a joint, i find the effects of 4-aco-dmt similar to that, except it lasts 3-4 hours long. It has always been very beautiful for me."
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erowid:
"4-ACO-DMT at .45mg/kg was like nothing I had ever experienced before on any drug, it was fully psychedelic, an outstanding euphoria and visuals like nothing I had ever seen before. With eyes open there was rapid and very obvious changes to the color of the light in the room, looking at red bricks for a few seconds and looking back at the room caused the world to take on a deep blood-red color, everything sparkled like you were in an enchanted forest out of a fairytale, the walls 'breathed' and everything else was crawling. Then you close your eyes, the closed eye visuals mimic that of smoked DMT but slowed down, with less complexity. They are the same visuals though, from the same realm, it is as if you have taken the time frame and strength of the mushroom experience and applied it to DMT. Unfortunately the 'machine elves' were nowhere to be found. Another thing worth noting is the almost absurd connection to music that I felt, I listen to 'Bass Music' mostly Dubstep. The music felt like it was being pumped directly into my soul. I will never forget it. Surprisingly my thoughts were mostly clear and concise, much more so then a 5 Gram mushroom trip, and this felt deeper.
The next step was to give out doses to friends and interested parties at .45mg/kg and see what they report. Almost every single report came back the same 'best drug experience of my life', 'amazing', 'best drug I have ever done'. Of probably 10-15 doses given out to people at .45mg/kg the only experience that seemed to differ from the others was one who sounded like they went even deeper, but finding people overly sensitive to a certain substance is pretty common."
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Society:
"4-AcO-DMT has given me the most intense open eye visuals on perhaps any psychedelic I have ever taken. A 20mg dose once turned a bathroom in to a bizarre fun house world. As I pissed into the toilet, the bowl turned into the head of a create... I was pissing into its mouth. I saw creatures sitting in the bathtub. Creatures on the walls... creatures dripping off of the towels hanging up.
With 4-AcO-DMT, I often see human-like figures on nearly every surface.
What an amazing chemical, for sure."
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NW-baltiland:
"I really cannot choose at all, while 4-aco-dmt has basically taken over my mushroom usage, I feel it is much cleaner. So when choosing between the pure chems LSD and 4-ho/aco-dmt it's really impossible to choose, they both are great for different reasons."
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Delsyd:
"Although I prefer LSD because it provides what I look for in a psychedelic, mushrooms are still a very valuable tool that can teach you things LSD can't. 4-aco-dmt is 2nd only to LSD by a very short margin in my opinion.
I have always prefered LSD. The euphoria, when you are lucky enough to experience it, beats any drug and is comparable with DMT.
mushrooms, although deep and powerful, have always given me anxiety. sometimes so much that it takes away from some of the usefull aspects of the trip.these days i only like mushrooms in lower doses (around 2 grams).
4 aco dmt on the other hand is a great chemical. IMO it is almost like the perfect "in between" of mushrooms and LSD."
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psilocin (4-ho-dmt) is an extraordinary psychedelic as it hits all the following:
(4.00 = maximum affinity)
psilocin:-------------compared with---------LSD:
5-HT1A--2.88................................5-HT1A--3.73
5-HT1B--2.19................................5-HT1B--4.00
5-HT1D--3.40................................5-HT1D--3.70
5-HT1E--3.03................................5-HT1E--2.62
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5-HT2A--2.14................................5-HT2A--3.54
5-HT2B--4.00................................5-HT2B--3.11
5-HT2C--2.52................................5-HT2C--3.11
5-HT5A--2.83................................5-HT5A--3.64
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5-HT6--2.82.................................5-HT6---3.75
5-HT7--2.82.................................5-HT7---3.77
D1-----3.37..................................D1------2.34
adrenal 2A--1.36........................adrenal 2A---2.93
adrenal 2B--1.57........................adrenal 2B---0.00
adrenal 2c--1.03.........................adrenal 2c---0.00
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Mescaline hits:
5-HT1A--3.61
5-HT1E--3.16
5-HT2B--3.97
adrenal 2A--2.92
adrenal 2B--0.00
adrenal 2C--4.00
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there are even other dopamine receptors that psilocin hits that I don't have data for, but as you can see, it is a VERY WELL ROUNDED psychedelic, just like LSD.
I'll post my report in a couple weeks.
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Here is my theory on agonism based on Kent's book and my own research:
5-HT2A = responsible for high visual activity & complex human behaviors as well (love, humor, empathy, joy) (stimulating & raises blood pressure slightly)
5-HT2C = responsible for high visual activity & complex behaviors as well. (stimulating)
5-HT2B = responsible for entactogenic (touch & feel) and sensual effects (stimulating)
5-HT1A = responsible for mystical & spiritual insights, calming & serene (inhibitory & modulates the visual activity of 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C to make it archaic and meaningful, also lowers blood pressure) key to the "antipodes" of the mind. Very important/also shuts off serotonin firing/inhibiting/important to a true psychedelic trip
5-HT1E = responsible for forming memories and accessing deep memories/also shuts off serotonin firing/inhibiting.
5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, same as above 5-HT1A & 5-HT1E/also shuts off serotonin firing/inhibiting.
5-HT5A = novel brain receptor
5-HT6 & 5-HT7 = responsible for psychedelic transcendence & enhanced cognitive abilities, the transcendental brain receptor, novel receptor, cosmic & ingenious.
alpha 2C & 2A = effective at stimulating serotonin production, cardiovascular activity, and actue sensuality.
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converting 4-aco-dmt (acetyl-psilocin) to 4-ho-dmt (psilocin)
I've read of at least 2 reports in those 1000 pages involving 2 people that said when they mixed their 4-aco-dmt dose into a glass of water, and slowly drank the solution over 1 hour, that the effects were very different from 4-aco-dmt and felt instead alot like 4-ho-dmt. it's possible this allows the body to slowly convert more of the 4-aco-dmt into 4-ho-dmt due to metabolism, or it could be some sort of hydrolysis is taking place in solution....here are 4 "takes" below to get your brain ticking:
take1:
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Here is my take on hydrolysis...Chemist Peter Webster (page 182 of Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess):
"In the first trial I heated 1 ergotamine tartrate tablet, containing 1mg of ergotamine with 200mg of hardwood ash in 20ml of vodka in a kitchen doble-boiler, and I found that after one hour the alcohol had boiled off. I continued to heat this mixture for an additional two hours at around 50degreeC, then neutralized the mixture with vitamin C, or ascorbic acid. Decanting the liquid from the residue of solids left by the wood ash, I then drank the result. A definite but weak psychoactive effect was noticed. Repeating the experiment with two and then three migraine tablets, the result was stronger and left no doub in my mind that the partial hydrolysis process we hpothesize does indeed happen to ergotamine. In my experiments here I used vodka as a solvent, since in a Gynergen tablet the ergotamine content exists as tiny crystals and an alcohol-water mixture would enhance the low solubilty of these ergotamine crystals. Neutralizing would make the brew more palatable and, in addition, augment the solubility of ergine/isoergine in body fluids since these alkaloids easily form salts with acids such as ascorbic, tartaric, or even hcl salts. These salts are far more soluble than the free base alkaloids."
This same procedure could be used with 4-aco-dmt I believe, perhaps yielding an ending solution of at least 50% psilocin In case the experiment of using baking soda (ph = 8.2) in water doesn't work, you may want to try dropping a few TUMs or Rolaids into water and stirring the 4-aco-dmt with it, TUMs/rolaids have a ph of 10.0, the same as wood ash (wood ash is 90% calcium carbonate).
Let it spin for 1 hour if possible, then simply sip it slowly over the course of 1/2 to 1 hour, this may indeed result in an experience very different than 4-aco-dmt, and much very like psilocin indeed (4-HO-dmt)...as the 4-aco-dmt (acetyl-psilocin) is hydrolized into 4-ho-dmt (psilocin).
You don't have to use wood ash as Peter Webster did, just use TUM's instead, same exact PH as wood ash. I'll definately be experimenting with this in the future.
Another experiment can be done by heating the tums/water/mixture of 4-aco-dmt to speed up or completely convert the stuff perhaps...but then again the heat might destroy it, who knows.
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take2:
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Avalokita:
"Hot base solutions are used to hydrolyse things. I've read of boiling 6-acetyldihydromorphine in 10% sodium hydroxide solution under an nitrogen atmosphere, in order to strip off the acetyl group attached to it, to convert it to dihydromorphine.
However, hot base solutions will likely destroy the psilocin. Probably sodium bicarbonate solution would be your best bet, but you'd have to do a series of experiments.
Put 5 mg 4-AcO-DMT in a test tube, then add 2 mL of saturated sodium bicarbonate solution. Mix it well, then let it sit for either 1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, or 8 hours. Then drink the contents. If the trip works, try it again using a longer soaking time. If after 8 hours works, then try it again, but heat the test-tube to boiling for either 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, or 30 minutes before the 8 hour soaking time. For the long boiling times, you may need to add some distilled water to it when the water level gets too low.
Once you find out the soaking time or the boiling time that breaks down the psilcin enough that the solution is inactive and doesn't make you trip, then you'll know what is too much.
I would expect that the psilocin would be weaker than the 4-AcO-DMT, because psilocin isn't taken into the brain as quickly. You may like psilocin more than the 4-AcO-DMT or find just the opposite. Good luck with it. "
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take3:
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09-10-2008, 21:17
DivineMomenT
In the big and dandy 4-aco dmt thread if I recall correctly, someone tried this conversion. They said it turned the solution blue, but it was still active, and they felt a difference.
09-10-2008, 22:27
psood0nym
Potentially relevant info from the B&D 4-AcO-DMT thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Each paragraph is a different post
Also, question. I wanted to see if I could convert some into psilocin by hydrolysis. I dissolved about.. ~4 mols of NaOH (2 mols for the fumarate then the acetyl group + extra) in a small cup of water (room temp) then dissolved however many mg's of 4-aco-dmt fumarate in there and stirred it.. let sit for a little over an hour. Drank it down.. *think* i noticed a difference - it came on much faster (could feel it in 10 mins) I think it was partially but not completely converted into psilocin.
^By the way, dont drink NaOH water, you arent going to get a ph of 7 unless something reacts with it, NaOH is incredibly bad for you to drink.
BTW: I wonder that nobody, who tried alkaline ester hydrolysis, reportrd from a change in color. I'd suppose, the free indolol should quickly form colored quinones or polymers in alkaline solutions. But maybe I am wrong.
…about hydrloysis.. I have had a small amount of 4-aco-mipt (don't know if it was fb or salt) in a small water vial solution and within days it did turn dark brown. I wonder if putting some dh20 in a small glass test tube or similar, and a little 4-aco-dmt (NaOH dissolved in water first), and just kept heating it with an alcohol lamp? You think it would turn "blueish"?
[This post is probably where you heard about the “blue solution,” DivineMomenT]In regards to degradation, I had some diluted in tap water that was stored in less than optimal conditions that turned blue, and I threw it out (I wish I didn't). I've had some more stored in the fridge in tap water for monthsa and I suspect it will be stable for quite a while. Before I take it I might mix it with some alcohol just in case. I'm aware distilled water is a much better choice, but I expected to use it quickly which turned out not to be case.
take 4:
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nitrogen:
"Side note - I have only tried the 4-aco-dmt that I received and converted to fumarate salt, and then treated with the hot distilled water. It may be that treating it with the hot dH20, letting it sit out for a day or so, then heating it again to achieve crystallization, is a legit "tek" for de-acetylating the compound into 4-HO-DMT. Everything about the mushroom experience was present in that 8mg dose I took - the melting body high, the experience of "the other", and those massive, face stretching yawns.. The visuals maybe moved a tad quicker, and looked a bit more like the way the DMT visuals do, but I wouldn't know the difference, and I've taken mushrooms many dozens of times.. Contrast this to 4-AcO-DET, which I do not find similar to mushrooms except that it's a deep, zany tryptamine excursion - mushrooms though have a very distinct body feeling and sense of "other" that was unmistakable.. "
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to elaborate on what Nitrogen said about "the Other": (I once encountered the voice of "the Other" on my highest LSD trip (about 1 dozen hits over a decade ago)...I heard the voice speak to me for a good 1/2 hour, very gentle, all knowing, the mystic helper.
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"Shroom" by Andy Letcher page 263:
"For McKenna, then, what made the tryptamines (and mushrooms and DMT in particular) superior to all other drugs was not only the depth of the visions they occasioned, but also the overwhelming force with which they brought about this encounter with the Other. Even to think of them as drugs was wrong. They were rather independent agentic souls, plant-allies or spirit-teachers, with whom a symbiotic relationship would yield ecstasy and gnosis. The shamanic world view, in other words, was right all along."
1. 1st attached paper from Jeremy gives receptor data profile for LSD and explains why 5-HT1 agonism is important to LSD's effects.
2. 2nd attached paper is one of my all time favorite papers from Ray, the receptor data for a wide array of psychedelics from the natural classics to the man-made synthetics. Notice how 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonism is below the halfway mark in strength for all the classics like LSD, DMT, psilocin, mescaline....whereas just the opposite with just about all the man-made psychedelics, which emphasize 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonism in strength to just about all else, results in skewed/unbalanced psychedelic activity imho, also does not shut down serotonin firing like the classics when this occurs. 5-HT1A, 1B, 1D, 1E and 5-HT7, 5-HT6, 5-HT5A agonism should be hit with more strength than 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors for a fully balanced mystical, spiritual, complete & archaic psychedelic trip as all the classics do imho.
It also appears from some reports it may be possible to convert the 4-aco-dmt to 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) by simple hydrolysis, i'll go into this at the end of this thread, and also include receptor binding data for 4-ho-dmt compared to LSD. Last part of this paper will deal with easy conversion of 4-aco-dmt (acetyl-psilocin) to the all time classic 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) for those willing to experiment....does it work? you be the judge. But if your solution starts to turn blue (as mushrooms do when bruised) it may serve as a visual indicator.
Important: The fact that so many report 4-aco-dmt to be sedating/relaxing indicates it probably hits all 4 of the 5-HT1 receptor families, which is excellent and indicates a high degree of 100% mind-manifesting psychedelic activity, as 5-HT1 receptors not only shut off serotonin firing but are the most populous of all the 5-HT receptors in the brain (over 70%). mescaline/LSD/4-ho-dmt all hit the 5-HT1 receptors with great force, way stronger than 5-HT2A/5-HT2C. The 5-HT1 receptors are implicated in counter-balancing the stimulating activity of 5-HT2A/5-HT2C, for imparting a tranquil/zen like meditative quality to the trip, not only that but they are implicated in mystical insights, archaic imagery, access to deep memories and the universal collective consiousness.
I've used 25i-nbome for well over a year, but I'm looking for a more "well-rounded" psychedelic that hits all the receptors (like LSD which hits over a dozen receptors) instead of just 25i-nbome which hits only 2 receptors (5-ht2a/5-ht2c) with super-human-strength. In-between taking the 25i-nbome, I would take real acid at around 180 to 220ug amounts (which simply blew away the 25i-nbome) and also took 25i-nbome along with mescaline which substituted just fine in place of actual acid, worked fantastic. 25i-nbome hits these 2 receptors (5-HT2a/2c) 100 times more powerfully than acid according to Nichols (and he is right). But as Nichols states in one of his papers, LSD is actually "not that remarkable" in it's agonism at 5-ht2A/5-HT2C, LSD's unique activity and response is due to it's actions at well over 10 other receptor brain sites (see attached paper "IB_LSD by Jeremy")
25i-nbome captures the euphoria, over-flowing empathy, LOVE, humor, all the complex behavioral qualities that make us human, and the visual take-off power of LSD, the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptor part of the brain is the part of the brain that has developed most recently in our evolution...it controls higher brain functions and is what makes us for the most part uniquely human. 25i captures this part of the brain, but that is about it, it only hits 2 receptors with any amount of super-power strength (the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors)...just as LSD does...however, remember that LSD and psilocin, dmt, mescaline all hit over a handfull of OTHER important receptors with way way more power than they even hit 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors, this is paramount to a quality nature-made psychedelic, you NEED to hit the 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, 5-HT7, 5-HT6, 5-HT5A receptors with way more potency than 5-ht2a/5-ht2c to end up with a 100% mind-manifesting trip....the 25i trip feels like "half-a-psychedelic trip" because it is so lacking in not being able to hit the other brain receptors....it will always be "one-dimensional" because of this, this can only be corrected by taking 300 to 400mg of mescaline along with your low-level (350 to 500ug) dose of 25i. If you don't have mescaline, you can substitute any other well-rounded psychedelic like psilocyn, 4-aco-dmt, etc. 25i-nbome can get you really deep-thinking, but what's the point of all that deep thinking if the rest of the brain/mind is not involved? We need total mind-expansion, not just 1/2 of mind-expansion.
25i-nbome does work well in combination with mescaline for a very well-rounded psychedelic experience however. It appears that 4-aco-dmt is just the well-rounded psychedelic RC I've really been looking for all this time.
I look forward to in a week getting to try 4-aco-dmt. After reading over 1000 pages on this psychedelic, it is believed by most all to be ranked among the classics LSD, mescaline, and mushrooms. From all my reading, it appears to hit a very wide range of receptors just as LSD and mushrooms do. It is also sedating and relaxing (which indicates to me that it probably hits all 4 of the 5-HT1 receptor families, excellent!) so combing this with a very small dose of stimulating 25i-nbome (only about 300ug, 25i is a potent 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonist) should work great in combination.
I look forward to combining the following:
* 4-aco-dmt all on it's own at different doses
* mescaline + 4-aco-dmt
* 25i-nbome (300ug) + 4-aco-dmt
The 4 experience reports I cite below are from 4 of the most experienced psychedelic users on the forums out there:
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bluedolphin:
"This stuff is frickin fantastic (4-aco-dmt).
Very smooth comeup.... the chemical seems to physically and mentally relax you before the trip really starts, and people have agrreed with me that this seems to cut back the anxiety that a mushroom trip would frequently have during the comeup.
Seems like a very pure psychedelic to me.... a very high signal to noise ratio here.
Put simply, I prefer it over DMT, shrooms, LSD, and everything else I've ever tried.
8mg gave me a mild +3 with a pretty quick peak.
12mg was only a little stronger wih a longer peak.
Snorted it appears you only need like 1/3 of the oral dose. Not 1/2. Less.
I have not felt the desire to take a larger dose than that, but other people have. Almost everyone agrees it is better than any shroom trip they ever had and a few of them had the best trips of their lives.
Unfortunately I know me saying this will probably encourage people to do stupid things with this chemical. Oh well. It is what it is.
No nausea.
Smoother comeup.
The chemical is more relaxing on the body and mind.
Visuals are slightly different than shrooms but only slightly.... I wouldn't call them better or worse but CERTAINLY better than any other "RC" I've tried. Only DOC is in the same ballpark as this one.
4-aco-MiPT is crap compared to this stuff.
Personally I only like to eat the BEST psychedelic I can when I choose to indulge these days, which is rarely. For me that means I will only be eating psilacetin these days, save the occasional LSD trip if the time and feel is right.
For me and the people I know who have eaten it, this is basically tripping on shrooms minus everything that sucks about shrooms.
I would take 4-aco-DMT or mushrooms over Ayahuasca any time. Pure DMT, both in its oral maoi activated form and smoked is too much of a sensory and hyperdimensional assualt. You are shown too much and at too rapid of a pace. The result is fear and disorientation in strong doses.
Shrooms will dissolve your ego gradually, at least giving you a chance to come to terms with your impending death. 4-aco-DMT seems even more gentle. I believe both these substances lend their journeys to better insight and contemplation, and life lessons in general because they give your brain a chance to catch up with your soul.
Furthermore oral DMT is just too freakin creepy. I can't think of any other drug that makes so many damn eyeballs pop out of thin air. I don't mind entities and "life-forces"... I even experience these on LSD, like some angel is hovering right over my shoulders or something. But goddamn all those DMT eyeballs, that's just creepy.
4-aco-DMT differs from ayahuasca significantly to me. First of all, the "trances". Both will give you trances. But 4-aco-DMT is relaxing and smooth sailing beauty. Aya knocks your ass into a trance and then 1000000 gods rape you in the asshole. The former is much more useful and enjoyable for me.
Then the visuals. 4-aco-DMT is just beautiful. Really, right up there with the classics: Shrooms and LSD. But, sparkly. Like everything is painted with glitter paint in super high resolution. It's unique, a bit less organic in appearance then shrooms, but really beautiful, almost a bit more towards the "cosmic" end of the spectrum where LSD lies.
Aya is just crazy freakin visuals. Eyeballs, rivers in the floor, all kinds of entities and weird shit goin on. Things change appearance between levels of dimension. Things levitate quite easily. Anything that looks remotely organic to begin with will grow/die/rebirth/grow/die in a cycle and take on quite a life of its own. More "organic" than shrooms but also a bit towards the "alien" end of spectrum. (Salvia is there too, yet very different)
Then the body buzz. 4-aco-DMT is relaxing, feels so good for a psychedelic! Really, who could ask for more. You feel the god-energy flowing through you, your heart rate isn't even elevated, its great.
Aya is outta control in this aspect. It can go from relaxing one minute to feeling like you grabbed a live power line the next minute. And of course this intense shocking buzz is linked to your psychological and visual state, which only exascerbates PANIC!
.... 4-aco-DMT over Ayahuasca any day. "
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xorkoth:
"I finally used my one sample of 4-AcO-DMT the other night, at a little under 30mg, and it was astounding! The walls of my apartment looked like windows into other dimensions, where I saw an endless web of connected human-like figures with no faces, and my thoughts had taken on a vastly different path, where I felt as if I was constantly switching identities as I plunged down strange tunnels behind my eyes. It was quite indescribable. Also, color was dramatically enhanced and every object or surface I saw seemed to be giving off an inner glow.
The only thing is, after the first hour and a half, I laid down to listen to music and meditate, and before I knew it, I woke up with a start after the entire 80-minute CD was over, with absolutely no memory of that stretch of time at all. By that time, the experience had died down significantly, and I attempted to redose with my last 10-12mg, which didn't really do anything, unfortunately. I don't know if I somehow fell asleep, or if I (more likely) went so far out that I had a complete ego loss so that my human self had no memory of it.
It was remarkable in so many ways... one of the heaviest trips I've had in a long time. Of particular note was that unlike mushrooms (4-HO-DMT), I experienced not even the slightest hint of anxiety ot fear or negativity. It was really quite blissful, even in the midst of huge distortions and alien thoughts.
I look forward to trying it again. I'd like to write an actual trip report but I can't remember the peak, so I'm not sure if I will.
I also find 4-AcO-DMT and mushrooms to be different enough to warrant separate usage. I find mushrooms to be very emotionally intense and "jarring", whereas 4-AcO-DMT was extraordinarily smooth and calm, physically and emotionally. The headspace is similar but mushrooms are definitely more forceful in content. Both come up extremely fast and are very mentally "far-out". They both have that creepy, twisted, sometimes dark feel to them, but 4-AcO-DMT sheltered me from the darkness of the space.
In my (limited) opinion, mushrooms are more profound, or at least more easily profound, but 4-AcO-DMT has the distinct advantage of being much easier and friendlier. Also, the headspace is different enough that it warrants separate usage aside from mushrooms. I found 4-AcO-DMT to be more similar to DMT than mushrooms, including the almost joyful overrriding emotion than comes with DMT.
Of course, this is all based off of a single, albiet very intense, experience with 4-AcO-DMT, and a last mushroom trip over 2 years ago."
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santadog:
"I’ve had three trials with this one so far and I’m blown away. I started with an 18mg oral dose, then combined 16mg with 8mg 4-HO-Dipt a week later, and finally combined 18mg with 8mg 4-Aco-Mipt just last weekend.
I hope I can add at least a little to what others have been saying.
After the first experience it’s clear that 4-Aco-DMT makes all the other characters in my tryptamine collection pale in comparison. It is by far the friendliest, easiest and most versatile. I hate to say it but it’s almost like ‘psychedelic cotton candy’ in the way it just melts into your psyche during comeup. Like others have said, the comeup is actually relaxing. CEV’s appear first (rotating kaleidoscope images with eyes), then OEV’s (multi-layered auras, patterns, music-driven shifting colors, huge arcs of energy) at about 45mins. Suddenly music becomes very euphoric. Then it gets DEEP.
It also seems to be a great ‘helper’ for the other tryptamines when combined, like it actually aids them in coming on and showing their true spirit. Hard to explain. It’s kind of like introducing a shy friend of yours around the party, 4-Aco-DMT takes it’s brother tryptamines by the hand and introduces them to your mind in a much more friendly and direct way than before.
Both combinations were spectacular but different. It’s like pushing exactly all the right buttons to connect to god. I was reminded just how very deep and complex reality is, how we are normally so bound up in ignorance that we’re not even aware of it, and that someone else is entirely in charge. Any concept that man has given to god over the millennia is completely inadequate, yet during these experiences I was given absolute access to god. It lives within us all. There is so much going on behind the scenes of our everyday lives and I feel like I understand those things so much better now. Especially after integrating and re-tripping a week later. Where will our ever-evolving brains take us next?
It was very easy to meditate to music for hours, very touching and reflective. I also went outside for a hike after the peak each time. My hearing was quite amplified and the mountains around my house seemed so different, steeper with the scary impression of a swirling vortex down in the valley that I could hear. People’s houses looked extraterrestrial. I also talked on the phone with no problem and had animalistic sex with my trip sitter.
I plan on combining this one with 4-HO-Mipt and/or 4-Aco-Dipt in the future. Then maybe a PEA. After a long enough break to integrate the first experiments!"
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nitrogen:
"Had the chance to dose some 25i on NYE - made up complexed buccal strips ala tregar - made them 500mcg apiece. This was done by dissolving 10mg of 25i and 90mg of HPBCD in 2cc of everclear in a spoon (heat was required). The liquid was drawn up in a syringe and .1cc was laid on each strip of filter paper. The 25i was in hcl form and a light yellow, very dense, micro-crystalline/sparkly powder - similar to the consistency of the 5-meo-dipt back in the day - much denser by far than a 2C-x..
I dosed 750mcg and then another 250mcg some 3 hours later. The effects were very nice - came on with a very enjoyable body high and some mild euphoria. We were out at a dance party type thing and the 25i was reasonably enjoyable in that context and very similar to 2C-x type substances. Visuals were mild but I could tell they were on the verge of being much stronger. I have found with both 2C-x and this 25i though that they are not particularly interesting in a club/festival/party atmosphere - an enhancement over being sober for sure, but nothing like the experience that LSD, mescaline, or mushrooms provide in that environment..
The 25i also had a strange body load to it - unlike the 2C-x bodyload, which is just a sort of roughness, or mild overstimulation - the 25i had me feeling a sort of pressure in my throat and chest, and like I couldn't breathe as well as I would like - this was quite disconcerting and odd because, other than that, the substance felt very clean and light on the body..
Anyhow, we went to another party and I'd been on the 25i for about 6 hours by that point - FWIW, the effects had not diminished in intensity at all. I had made up some ~8mg 4-AcO-DMT capsules which I suspect are 4-HO-DMT/psilocin at this point due to a strong smell of acetic acid that emerged after I tried to re-x the product in hot distilled water. The product had a distinct smell before which is entirely absent now. Fortunately I opted for only 1 of these capsules as the drug arrived with alarming intensity..
What was amazing about the addition of the psilocin was that not only could I not tell the difference between the effect and that of mushrooms, but that is was highly educational in terms of what a "real" psychedelic is all about. The trickster mushroom spirit arrived and the change in latitude was dramatic - any memory of the 25i headspace was brushed aside and I entered the endlessly deep, endlessly fascinating world of DMT/mushrooms. A friend of mine was also on 25i, and also took the psilocin and reported that it had the same effect on him in terms of obliterating the 25i high and making it seem trivial..
Unfortunately, I was at a quite swanky house party at this point - no one under late 20's to 30, a more mature and sophisticated crowd - not a place where anybody was just wasted and acting out of it - definitely NOT the place to have a mushroom freakout, which is what I struggled with for about an hour.. It was like the mushrooms came in and were like "GUESS WHAT BITCH?? *THIS* IS PSYCHEDELIA - WHAT YOU WERE ON BEFORE WAS CHILD'S PLAY!" - it was as though they were ridiculing the whole concept of 25i as a psychedelic and were showing me who was boss..
This was all very intense, and didn't know what to do with myself - didn't want to sit down because when I did the visions and weirdness increased and threatened to suck me down the rabbit hole - but I wasn't comfortable to stand around much either.. I found my rescue in dancing - there was a DJ who was spinning a fantastic set and, though I had been dancing all night on the 25i, the psilocin totally transformed my perception of music and the command I had over my body - my body became totally loose and under my control like nothing I'd ever felt - and the music became absolutely exquisite and extra-dimensional - the phenethylamines seem to "enhance" the experience of music - it sounds "really good", but the psilocin brought me way way deep into the universe of sound in a whole different way.. My body felt and responded to what seemed like every note of the music I heard..
I got a handle on the high after about 2 hours, but not before the psilocin "made me" take a look at some areas of my life that I had not been doing so well in - once I worked through those and came up with some (very practical) resolutions, my "bad trip" type experience, which had been occurring off and on throughout, dissipated.. My sense of humor (and the mushroom's sense of humor!) became absolutely fantastic as the experience progressed - my body and mind felt extraordinarily healthy and as though reborn.. I experienced all sorts of feelings of awe, wonder, euphoria, and so forth, in addition to the feelings of doom and terror..
Anyhow, I hadn't taken mushrooms in like 2-3 years - haven't had any in the ol stashbox.. And I'd been using so many of the phenethylamines that I'd forgot (or never quite realized) just how vastly superior DMT and the 4-substituted tryptamines (like 4-Ac0-DMT, 4-AcO-DET, 4-HO-DMT) are to these phens and NBOMe substances.. I'll still use and enjoy the phens and the NBOMe's I am sure - but I'm under no illusions that if I really want to journey and go deep into an endlessly spectacular and rich dimension, the tryptamines are where it's at..
The 25i has been compared to LSD, in terms of the headspace, and I agree that it *feels* sort of like the headspace, but what is missing is the powerfully mind-altering properties of acid. I have begun to regard "clearheaded", which is how NBOMe and other 2C's are often described, as something that can translated as "not very interesting". What goes along with a heavily "mind-altering" substance like LSD or mushrooms, is all sorts of experiences of wonder and awe, and all sorts of experiences of transcendence, of hyperdimensionality, time dilation, of experiencing "god", of being godlike - and just radically entertaining perceptions of reality. The phenthylamines often produce strong "visuals", but they don't seem to alter the fundamental fabric of reality like LSD and the tryptamines can do - and altering the fundamental fabric of reality is where things become truly interesting..
I used to value this "lack of mindfuck", or "clearheaded" experience - but the psilocin showed me just how thrilling and rewarding it can be to take a walk on the wild side, to step up and party like the self-transforming machine elves do
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Side note - I have only tried the 4-aco-dmt that I received and converted to fumarate salt, and then treated with the hot distilled water. It may be that treating it with the hot dH20, letting it sit out for a day or so, then heating it again to achieve crystallization, is a legit "tek" for de-acetylating the compound into 4-HO-DMT. Everything about the mushroom experience was present in that 8mg dose I took - the melting body high, the experience of "the other", and those massive, face stretching yawns.. The visuals maybe moved a tad quicker, and looked a bit more like the way the DMT visuals do, but I wouldn't know the difference, and I've taken mushrooms many dozens of times.. Contrast this to 4-AcO-DET, which I do not find similar to mushrooms except that it's a deep, zany tryptamine excursion - mushrooms though have a very distinct body feeling and sense of "other" that was unmistakable.. "
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Jeff:
"4-Aco-DMT is awesome, i used to trip on shrooms once a month, about 6 months ago this replaced shrooms for me. Dont need to go through all the effort of growing shrooms anymore lol. Personally i like 4-Aco-DMT better, the body tention is completely gone for me, it is a very clean high for me. The only thing i find different from 4-ACO-DMT and shrooms is the visuals are a lot more DMT like then Shrooms. On doses 30mg and higher it felt like i was almost going to BLAST OFF.
You know when you smoke DMT in a joint, i find the effects of 4-aco-dmt similar to that, except it lasts 3-4 hours long. It has always been very beautiful for me."
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erowid:
"4-ACO-DMT at .45mg/kg was like nothing I had ever experienced before on any drug, it was fully psychedelic, an outstanding euphoria and visuals like nothing I had ever seen before. With eyes open there was rapid and very obvious changes to the color of the light in the room, looking at red bricks for a few seconds and looking back at the room caused the world to take on a deep blood-red color, everything sparkled like you were in an enchanted forest out of a fairytale, the walls 'breathed' and everything else was crawling. Then you close your eyes, the closed eye visuals mimic that of smoked DMT but slowed down, with less complexity. They are the same visuals though, from the same realm, it is as if you have taken the time frame and strength of the mushroom experience and applied it to DMT. Unfortunately the 'machine elves' were nowhere to be found. Another thing worth noting is the almost absurd connection to music that I felt, I listen to 'Bass Music' mostly Dubstep. The music felt like it was being pumped directly into my soul. I will never forget it. Surprisingly my thoughts were mostly clear and concise, much more so then a 5 Gram mushroom trip, and this felt deeper.
The next step was to give out doses to friends and interested parties at .45mg/kg and see what they report. Almost every single report came back the same 'best drug experience of my life', 'amazing', 'best drug I have ever done'. Of probably 10-15 doses given out to people at .45mg/kg the only experience that seemed to differ from the others was one who sounded like they went even deeper, but finding people overly sensitive to a certain substance is pretty common."
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Society:
"4-AcO-DMT has given me the most intense open eye visuals on perhaps any psychedelic I have ever taken. A 20mg dose once turned a bathroom in to a bizarre fun house world. As I pissed into the toilet, the bowl turned into the head of a create... I was pissing into its mouth. I saw creatures sitting in the bathtub. Creatures on the walls... creatures dripping off of the towels hanging up.
With 4-AcO-DMT, I often see human-like figures on nearly every surface.
What an amazing chemical, for sure."
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NW-baltiland:
"I really cannot choose at all, while 4-aco-dmt has basically taken over my mushroom usage, I feel it is much cleaner. So when choosing between the pure chems LSD and 4-ho/aco-dmt it's really impossible to choose, they both are great for different reasons."
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Delsyd:
"Although I prefer LSD because it provides what I look for in a psychedelic, mushrooms are still a very valuable tool that can teach you things LSD can't. 4-aco-dmt is 2nd only to LSD by a very short margin in my opinion.
I have always prefered LSD. The euphoria, when you are lucky enough to experience it, beats any drug and is comparable with DMT.
mushrooms, although deep and powerful, have always given me anxiety. sometimes so much that it takes away from some of the usefull aspects of the trip.these days i only like mushrooms in lower doses (around 2 grams).
4 aco dmt on the other hand is a great chemical. IMO it is almost like the perfect "in between" of mushrooms and LSD."
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psilocin (4-ho-dmt) is an extraordinary psychedelic as it hits all the following:
(4.00 = maximum affinity)
psilocin:-------------compared with---------LSD:
5-HT1A--2.88................................5-HT1A--3.73
5-HT1B--2.19................................5-HT1B--4.00
5-HT1D--3.40................................5-HT1D--3.70
5-HT1E--3.03................................5-HT1E--2.62
------------ ------------
5-HT2A--2.14................................5-HT2A--3.54
5-HT2B--4.00................................5-HT2B--3.11
5-HT2C--2.52................................5-HT2C--3.11
5-HT5A--2.83................................5-HT5A--3.64
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5-HT6--2.82.................................5-HT6---3.75
5-HT7--2.82.................................5-HT7---3.77
D1-----3.37..................................D1------2.34
adrenal 2A--1.36........................adrenal 2A---2.93
adrenal 2B--1.57........................adrenal 2B---0.00
adrenal 2c--1.03.........................adrenal 2c---0.00
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Mescaline hits:
5-HT1A--3.61
5-HT1E--3.16
5-HT2B--3.97
adrenal 2A--2.92
adrenal 2B--0.00
adrenal 2C--4.00
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there are even other dopamine receptors that psilocin hits that I don't have data for, but as you can see, it is a VERY WELL ROUNDED psychedelic, just like LSD.
I'll post my report in a couple weeks.
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Here is my theory on agonism based on Kent's book and my own research:
5-HT2A = responsible for high visual activity & complex human behaviors as well (love, humor, empathy, joy) (stimulating & raises blood pressure slightly)
5-HT2C = responsible for high visual activity & complex behaviors as well. (stimulating)
5-HT2B = responsible for entactogenic (touch & feel) and sensual effects (stimulating)
5-HT1A = responsible for mystical & spiritual insights, calming & serene (inhibitory & modulates the visual activity of 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C to make it archaic and meaningful, also lowers blood pressure) key to the "antipodes" of the mind. Very important/also shuts off serotonin firing/inhibiting/important to a true psychedelic trip
5-HT1E = responsible for forming memories and accessing deep memories/also shuts off serotonin firing/inhibiting.
5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, same as above 5-HT1A & 5-HT1E/also shuts off serotonin firing/inhibiting.
5-HT5A = novel brain receptor
5-HT6 & 5-HT7 = responsible for psychedelic transcendence & enhanced cognitive abilities, the transcendental brain receptor, novel receptor, cosmic & ingenious.
alpha 2C & 2A = effective at stimulating serotonin production, cardiovascular activity, and actue sensuality.
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converting 4-aco-dmt (acetyl-psilocin) to 4-ho-dmt (psilocin)
I've read of at least 2 reports in those 1000 pages involving 2 people that said when they mixed their 4-aco-dmt dose into a glass of water, and slowly drank the solution over 1 hour, that the effects were very different from 4-aco-dmt and felt instead alot like 4-ho-dmt. it's possible this allows the body to slowly convert more of the 4-aco-dmt into 4-ho-dmt due to metabolism, or it could be some sort of hydrolysis is taking place in solution....here are 4 "takes" below to get your brain ticking:take1:
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Here is my take on hydrolysis...Chemist Peter Webster (page 182 of Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess):
"In the first trial I heated 1 ergotamine tartrate tablet, containing 1mg of ergotamine with 200mg of hardwood ash in 20ml of vodka in a kitchen doble-boiler, and I found that after one hour the alcohol had boiled off. I continued to heat this mixture for an additional two hours at around 50degreeC, then neutralized the mixture with vitamin C, or ascorbic acid. Decanting the liquid from the residue of solids left by the wood ash, I then drank the result. A definite but weak psychoactive effect was noticed. Repeating the experiment with two and then three migraine tablets, the result was stronger and left no doub in my mind that the partial hydrolysis process we hpothesize does indeed happen to ergotamine. In my experiments here I used vodka as a solvent, since in a Gynergen tablet the ergotamine content exists as tiny crystals and an alcohol-water mixture would enhance the low solubilty of these ergotamine crystals. Neutralizing would make the brew more palatable and, in addition, augment the solubility of ergine/isoergine in body fluids since these alkaloids easily form salts with acids such as ascorbic, tartaric, or even hcl salts. These salts are far more soluble than the free base alkaloids."
This same procedure could be used with 4-aco-dmt I believe, perhaps yielding an ending solution of at least 50% psilocin
In case the experiment of using baking soda (ph = 8.2) in water doesn't work, you may want to try dropping a few TUMs or Rolaids into water and stirring the 4-aco-dmt with it, TUMs/rolaids have a ph of 10.0, the same as wood ash (wood ash is 90% calcium carbonate).Let it spin for 1 hour if possible, then simply sip it slowly over the course of 1/2 to 1 hour, this may indeed result in an experience very different than 4-aco-dmt, and much very like psilocin indeed (4-HO-dmt)...as the 4-aco-dmt (acetyl-psilocin) is hydrolized into 4-ho-dmt (psilocin).
You don't have to use wood ash as Peter Webster did, just use TUM's instead, same exact PH as wood ash. I'll definately be experimenting with this in the future.
Another experiment can be done by heating the tums/water/mixture of 4-aco-dmt to speed up or completely convert the stuff perhaps...but then again the heat might destroy it, who knows.
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take2:
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Avalokita:
"Hot base solutions are used to hydrolyse things. I've read of boiling 6-acetyldihydromorphine in 10% sodium hydroxide solution under an nitrogen atmosphere, in order to strip off the acetyl group attached to it, to convert it to dihydromorphine.
However, hot base solutions will likely destroy the psilocin. Probably sodium bicarbonate solution would be your best bet, but you'd have to do a series of experiments.
Put 5 mg 4-AcO-DMT in a test tube, then add 2 mL of saturated sodium bicarbonate solution. Mix it well, then let it sit for either 1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, or 8 hours. Then drink the contents. If the trip works, try it again using a longer soaking time. If after 8 hours works, then try it again, but heat the test-tube to boiling for either 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, or 30 minutes before the 8 hour soaking time. For the long boiling times, you may need to add some distilled water to it when the water level gets too low.
Once you find out the soaking time or the boiling time that breaks down the psilcin enough that the solution is inactive and doesn't make you trip, then you'll know what is too much.
I would expect that the psilocin would be weaker than the 4-AcO-DMT, because psilocin isn't taken into the brain as quickly. You may like psilocin more than the 4-AcO-DMT or find just the opposite. Good luck with it. "
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take3:
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09-10-2008, 21:17
DivineMomenT
In the big and dandy 4-aco dmt thread if I recall correctly, someone tried this conversion. They said it turned the solution blue, but it was still active, and they felt a difference.
09-10-2008, 22:27
psood0nym
Potentially relevant info from the B&D 4-AcO-DMT thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Each paragraph is a different post
Also, question. I wanted to see if I could convert some into psilocin by hydrolysis. I dissolved about.. ~4 mols of NaOH (2 mols for the fumarate then the acetyl group + extra) in a small cup of water (room temp) then dissolved however many mg's of 4-aco-dmt fumarate in there and stirred it.. let sit for a little over an hour. Drank it down.. *think* i noticed a difference - it came on much faster (could feel it in 10 mins) I think it was partially but not completely converted into psilocin.
^By the way, dont drink NaOH water, you arent going to get a ph of 7 unless something reacts with it, NaOH is incredibly bad for you to drink.
BTW: I wonder that nobody, who tried alkaline ester hydrolysis, reportrd from a change in color. I'd suppose, the free indolol should quickly form colored quinones or polymers in alkaline solutions. But maybe I am wrong.
…about hydrloysis.. I have had a small amount of 4-aco-mipt (don't know if it was fb or salt) in a small water vial solution and within days it did turn dark brown. I wonder if putting some dh20 in a small glass test tube or similar, and a little 4-aco-dmt (NaOH dissolved in water first), and just kept heating it with an alcohol lamp? You think it would turn "blueish"?
[This post is probably where you heard about the “blue solution,” DivineMomenT]In regards to degradation, I had some diluted in tap water that was stored in less than optimal conditions that turned blue, and I threw it out (I wish I didn't). I've had some more stored in the fridge in tap water for monthsa and I suspect it will be stable for quite a while. Before I take it I might mix it with some alcohol just in case. I'm aware distilled water is a much better choice, but I expected to use it quickly which turned out not to be case.
take 4:
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nitrogen:
"Side note - I have only tried the 4-aco-dmt that I received and converted to fumarate salt, and then treated with the hot distilled water. It may be that treating it with the hot dH20, letting it sit out for a day or so, then heating it again to achieve crystallization, is a legit "tek" for de-acetylating the compound into 4-HO-DMT. Everything about the mushroom experience was present in that 8mg dose I took - the melting body high, the experience of "the other", and those massive, face stretching yawns.. The visuals maybe moved a tad quicker, and looked a bit more like the way the DMT visuals do, but I wouldn't know the difference, and I've taken mushrooms many dozens of times.. Contrast this to 4-AcO-DET, which I do not find similar to mushrooms except that it's a deep, zany tryptamine excursion - mushrooms though have a very distinct body feeling and sense of "other" that was unmistakable.. "
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to elaborate on what Nitrogen said about "the Other": (I once encountered the voice of "the Other" on my highest LSD trip (about 1 dozen hits over a decade ago)...I heard the voice speak to me for a good 1/2 hour, very gentle, all knowing, the mystic helper.
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"Shroom" by Andy Letcher page 263:
"For McKenna, then, what made the tryptamines (and mushrooms and DMT in particular) superior to all other drugs was not only the depth of the visions they occasioned, but also the overwhelming force with which they brought about this encounter with the Other. Even to think of them as drugs was wrong. They were rather independent agentic souls, plant-allies or spirit-teachers, with whom a symbiotic relationship would yield ecstasy and gnosis. The shamanic world view, in other words, was right all along."
1. 1st attached paper from Jeremy gives receptor data profile for LSD and explains why 5-HT1 agonism is important to LSD's effects.
2. 2nd attached paper is one of my all time favorite papers from Ray, the receptor data for a wide array of psychedelics from the natural classics to the man-made synthetics. Notice how 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonism is below the halfway mark in strength for all the classics like LSD, DMT, psilocin, mescaline....whereas just the opposite with just about all the man-made psychedelics, which emphasize 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonism in strength to just about all else, results in skewed/unbalanced psychedelic activity imho, also does not shut down serotonin firing like the classics when this occurs. 5-HT1A, 1B, 1D, 1E and 5-HT7, 5-HT6, 5-HT5A agonism should be hit with more strength than 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors for a fully balanced mystical, spiritual, complete & archaic psychedelic trip as all the classics do imho.
IB_LSD.pdf
