Author Topic: Short Question Thread 2.0  (Read 5704 times)

Tsjanga

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #200 on: September 25, 2012, 07:10:32 AM »
Well, tell your dog he should add some suited drying agent ;)

Yeah he already told me that he would do it!
Can you tell me how much he would need to get 1 liter of xylene free of H2O, or is there some way to see it is free of H2O?

Xylene and water form a lower boiling point azeotrope:

h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotropic_distillation

You need to start learning about practical organic chemistry from textbooks instead of posting such questions:

http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/vogel_practical_ochem_3.pdf

http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_practical_methods_of_organic_chemistry.pdf

http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/practical_organic_chemistry.pdf

The end results from the effort applied  8)

Thanks I will get into that!

carl_nnabis

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #201 on: September 25, 2012, 07:46:45 AM »
Yes electros right there, if you heat it too much you will create dimethylamine, which is as its HCl salt soluble in chloroform, so thats why you wash it afterwards with CHCl3.
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ImAMANGUYS

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #202 on: September 27, 2012, 05:25:33 PM »
If I were to wash brown camphor with a 25% acetic acid solution, and the resulting separation inside the funnel was a yellow layer on top, and a slightly cloudy clear-white layer on bottom, would the bottom white layer contain the safrole?

This question was just for confirmation as the section in TSII on chemical isolation of safrole states that a colored layer will be created on top, the acetic acid wash, which contains all other chemical constituents of the oil with the exceptions of phellandrene and safrole which are left on the bottom.

Thanks :D
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 05:29:30 PM by ImAMANGUYS »

T-cowboy

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #203 on: September 28, 2012, 07:38:28 AM »
quick questiong pertaining the bisulfite regeneration.

This procedure is copied from wd.

3. Stripping of the Sodium Bisulfite and recover pure Piperonal
- take all swiy's crystals of the former step and insert them in swiy's separatory funnel (yes in powder form)
- measure out 50ml water and add this to swiy's separatory funnel
- give swiy's separatory funnel a good shake
- add more portions of 10ml water and shake, until the product in swiy's separatory funnel is dissolved (it does not need to fish tank clear, just dissolved!)
- measure out 105ml water and put it on swiy's stirrer with a stirr bar
- weigh 10,5g Sodium Hydroxide (swiy knows, toilet destopper)
- add the Sodium Hydroxide to swiy's beaker with water on the stirrer, and start stirring for a few mins, it will warm up firmly
- let the solution cool back to room temp
- add the solution to swiy's separatory funnel, watch the solution in swiy's separatory funnel going from white to a bit more clear
- weigh 5g salt and add that to swiy's separatory funnel
- measure out 50ml ether, and add to swiy's separatory funnel
- shake with swiy's separatory funnel for a few mins, releasing the pressure in intervals
- take a good look in swiy's separatory funnel, mind the bubbles going from swiy's water to the top of the ether layer
- drain off the bottom (aqueous) layer, and discard
- pour the remaining layer in a (preferrably clear) glass dish
- let the ether evaporate (better outside, prevent headache)


Now, why the fudge is ether used to get the piperonal out? as far as i can tell piperonal dissolves in 500 parts water. There must be an easier way.

The piperonal should crash out it in the water, (if temperature allows it, piperonal mp)

Have been wasting atleast 200 ml of "compound".

Tsjanga

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #204 on: September 28, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »
A dog I know doesn't know what the mol mass of the amide is, he is working on the hofmann bleach route but he wants to know exactly how it is working.
Can someone point him in the right direction?

lugh

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #205 on: September 28, 2012, 02:16:29 PM »
A dog I know doesn't know what the mol mass of the amide is, he is working on the hofmann bleach route but he wants to know exactly how it is working.
Can someone point him in the right direction?

The article from the Rhodium collection:

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/pdf/mda.hoffman-rxn.pdf

 8)
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lugh

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #206 on: September 28, 2012, 04:19:59 PM »
quick questiong pertaining the bisulfite regeneration.

This procedure is copied from wd.

3. Stripping of the Sodium Bisulfite and recover pure Piperonal
- take all swiy's crystals of the former step and insert them in swiy's separatory funnel (yes in powder form)
- measure out 50ml water and add this to swiy's separatory funnel
- give swiy's separatory funnel a good shake
- add more portions of 10ml water and shake, until the product in swiy's separatory funnel is dissolved (it does not need to fish tank clear, just dissolved!)
- measure out 105ml water and put it on swiy's stirrer with a stirr bar
- weigh 10,5g Sodium Hydroxide (swiy knows, toilet destopper)
- add the Sodium Hydroxide to swiy's beaker with water on the stirrer, and start stirring for a few mins, it will warm up firmly
- let the solution cool back to room temp
- add the solution to swiy's separatory funnel, watch the solution in swiy's separatory funnel going from white to a bit more clear
- weigh 5g salt and add that to swiy's separatory funnel
- measure out 50ml ether, and add to swiy's separatory funnel
- shake with swiy's separatory funnel for a few mins, releasing the pressure in intervals
- take a good look in swiy's separatory funnel, mind the bubbles going from swiy's water to the top of the ether layer
- drain off the bottom (aqueous) layer, and discard
- pour the remaining layer in a (preferrably clear) glass dish
- let the ether evaporate (better outside, prevent headache)


Now, why the fudge is ether used to get the piperonal out? as far as i can tell piperonal dissolves in 500 parts water. There must be an easier way.

The piperonal should crash out it in the water, (if temperature allows it, piperonal mp)

Have been wasting atleast 200 ml of "compound".

The Merck Index states that piperonal is freely soluble in alcohol and ether, and one part dissolves in five hundred parts of water  ;)  CRC Handbook states that piperonal is infinitely soluble in ether, and soluble in acetone as well as alcohol   :D  Thus one extracts the solution with ether, once the piperonal is liberated from the bisulfite adduct   :P If you're not recovering much piperonal then you need to use the search engiine and study the procedures involved until you understand what's going on as opposed to expecting to be spoon fed  ::) The end results from the effort applied  8)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 12:29:00 AM by lugh »
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T-cowboy

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #207 on: September 28, 2012, 06:18:04 PM »
you dont get my point, i know of all the solubilties:

1. im not trying to get spoonfed, been combing the web for 1 month. carlnabbis can confirm this

2. if a water hydroxide solution is used, then the crystals should crash out hence there is already water?

3. ether is extremely restricted here, and i mean like "unobtainium", and yes maybe another solvent can be used but why use that when merck states this compound in water.

4. i am trying to get it to work, and make it simpler for all of us here

But, since this is not a oily aldehyde but in a powdery form this gives me headaches. I know carlnabbis and electro'S know this, but the info i am getting is sparse.

Oh and the precipitating the adduct is a walk in the park. But regenerating is something else. Have tried HCL didnt work, so did sodium bicarbonate.

carl_nnabis

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #208 on: September 28, 2012, 10:18:53 PM »
1. I concur!
2. yes, if it didnt works like i said, use a stronger solution, but a cold one.
3. use dcm or any other low boiling solvent, or better apply a vac
4.  ;)

I had never a problem to crash the free piperonal out of water, i maybe will show it on picture if i find out about those metadata

btw - a walk in the park? reminds me of nick straker ;D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:23:44 PM by carl_nnabis »
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lugh

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #209 on: September 29, 2012, 01:22:59 AM »
Piperonal is volatile in steam, so the procedure mentioned in:

http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,3387

can be used for purification purposes  ;) The attached article:

Piperonal in Vanilla Extract
C. B. Gnadinger
Ind. Eng. Chem., 1926, 18 (6), pp 588–589
DOI: 10.1021/ie50198a014
Publication Date: June 1926

discusses procedures used for isolating and identifying piperonal and thus should be studied by anyone working with it   ;) The short monograph on piperonal from Guenther's Essential Oils is attached as well 8)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 02:16:39 AM by lugh »
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carl_nnabis

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #210 on: October 02, 2012, 02:41:44 PM »
I had an interesting find which might or might not could be useful regarding "the unwatched aldehyde thats better not be mentioned", you all know, aldehyde voldemort, and i thought if one replace benzaldehyde with it and dimethylamine with ethyl- or methylamine, it could be a replacement of the current beckmann rearrangement in use, and also provide a route to secondary amines as endproduct with this starting feed:

Quote
Benzylidene-bis-dimethylamine
Benzaldehyde (106 g., 1 mole) was poured into a 1-liter flask containing 400 g. of 25% aqueous dimethylamine. The mixture was swirled occasionally during 10 minutes warming on the steam-cone. After cooling, the aqueous layer was saturated with potassium carbonate and the upper layer separated with the aid of 100 ml. of benzene. The benzene layer was dried over potassium carbonate, the benzene removed under reduced pressure and the residue distilled. The product was collected at 57-60°C/(0.9mmHg, 143 g. (80%).

N,N-Dimethylbenzamide
Benzylidene-bis-dimethylamine (44.5 g., 0.25 mole) was heated in a 200-ml. flask, fitted with a dropping funnel and reflux condenser with drying tube, in an oil-bath at 120-130°C. 2-Nitropropane (22.2 g., 0.25 mole) was added dropwise in the course of 2.5 hours with continuous evolution of dimethylamine. Heating was continued one additional hour and then the light amber reaction mixture was distilled. The forerun was collected at 35-70°C/20mmHg, and the dimethylbenzamide at 94-96°C/0.5mmHg, 35g (94%).
from: hxxp://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/halide.carbonyl.html

Would this work with this certain aldehyde? Just curious, its maybe of much use for other people.  Also, hydroxylamine is watched, i dont think isonitropropane is to the same extent yet.
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T-cowboy

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #211 on: October 02, 2012, 06:12:46 PM »
wow, thats nice thinking there. combining two reactions, the one beeing recently "popular" beckmann.

But as with all "home" beckmann's i think the yield will be medium to low at best.! but hey its a secondary amine! :D

hmm maybe i am not thinking of the samen aldehyde, but its either one of two.

Respect from me again!

carl_nnabis

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #212 on: October 02, 2012, 07:55:19 PM »
i mean that certain aldehyde that results, when someone is so stupid like me, and adds piperonal to a ethereal solution of ethylmagnesiumbromide and dehydrates the resulting alcohol, to brominate the resulting safrol and react its grignard reagent with triethyloformiate to get like two hundred milligrams of "the aldehyde" which smells plain nice but less than the starting feed piperonal i have wasted for this shit, more than thirty grams for ALL this other aldehyde!!!!!
I must be one of the must stupid persons alive, all the dangerous shit ive done, ive even made the EtO3CH myself, and no, why should i choose the harmless low yielding shit route with NaOEt?
Who would if the cyanide is already around ;D
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 08:01:00 PM by carl_nnabis »
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T-cowboy

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #213 on: October 02, 2012, 08:20:16 PM »
wow, you went all that way to "voldemortaldehyde"! that is in a sense stupid, but at the same time awesome. gotta love your access to chems... i envy

2bWinston

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #214 on: October 12, 2012, 08:37:17 PM »
Hi all, Ist week back into my own stuff.  Perfume intermediates that they cannot keep up demand, but that isn't the question in mind. I want to produce benzyl chloride, and it says equal volume of Toluene and Ca(O-CL)2,
I thought just using the density, which is giving me volume of 1ml, so if the reaction says, equal volume, and the density of toluence is 0.85g/ml and the hypochlorite is 2.35g/ml.   Then its just a simple scaling up, I scaled a small run to 50 ml toluene, so that would make it 117,50g of dry Ca(OCL)2 It just seems alot. Like no fucking way, The salt is flaky, and perhaps if I powdered it, yet it just seems a hell of a lot. ANYONE PLAYED WITH THIS. And hi all, Ive been away for a few years, the odd pop in and out, but Im hanging around some more, Hope all and everyone is doing good.

Thanks in advance 2B

lugh

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2bWinston

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #216 on: October 13, 2012, 05:17:46 AM »
Thank GOD Im a noob, 8) It would of crushed my pride to be reminded to stop being a lazy noob, 8) and use whats available, For my defense ;D, I google, and add SM, or go for journals, but such a question for such a molecule, would obviously have been discussed. PLENTY, So thank you kind Sir.  YOU have the patients of a snail. ;D lols. And are an asset here. I in fact was on board pretty much from the start, and have returned with vengence  8) BTW, before my last AWOL act, some one, whose name I have no recallable memory was trying to contact 2bfrank, some fellow native. Now because someone went Missing in action, a very respected and freinds with little 2b, well, everything was helter skelter, so YOU know who you are, If you want to get in touch with Ns friend 2bfrank, I can help that along. Sorry, buit I dont keep messages that long, and I cannnot recall, but Im cool if you wish to message me.

Fuck I have so many ideas. IM starting to think an anhydride could be easily produced via the use of an azetrope say toluene for the water eliminated, i.e. 1,2 addition, that is one molecule of acetic acid, via resonance causing the pi e's of the carbonyl, to attack another molecules carbonyl carbon, then some proton shifts, acid catalyst, to promote the 1,2 elimination of water, which would associate more with toluene, DS and bobs your Uncle as they say, GOD KNOWS WHERE, obviously here, but who KNOWS where else  ;D,  Anyway, its my bed time, and once again thanking you muchly and kindly dear Lugh

ps, a snail with an EST wrist watch, RELATIVITY.  ;D- im sure you get my jist.

psss., re verification, WHERES ya telescope when you need it. FUCK, GOING for attempt 5.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:31:15 AM by 2bWinston »

Sedit

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #217 on: October 14, 2012, 02:49:49 AM »
Hi all, Ist week back into my own stuff.  Perfume intermediates that they cannot keep up demand, but that isn't the question in mind. I want to produce benzyl chloride, and it says equal volume of Toluene and Ca(O-CL)2,
I thought just using the density, which is giving me volume of 1ml, so if the reaction says, equal volume, and the density of toluence is 0.85g/ml and the hypochlorite is 2.35g/ml.   Then its just a simple scaling up, I scaled a small run to 50 ml toluene, so that would make it 117,50g of dry Ca(OCL)2 It just seems alot. Like no fucking way, The salt is flaky, and perhaps if I powdered it, yet it just seems a hell of a lot. ANYONE PLAYED WITH THIS. And hi all, Ive been away for a few years, the odd pop in and out, but Im hanging around some more, Hope all and everyone is doing good.

Thanks in advance 2B

Its a pain in the dick because it causes a runaway reaction and the bulky ass hypochlorite is just to much to deal with. Go with radical Bromination using Br2 to yield Benzylbromide. Mix the correct amount of Br2 and Toluene and place it in a strong light source.
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2bWinston

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2012, 10:07:20 AM »
thankyou Sedit. I have heard that before, I aim to work safely, and effectively. I dont like run away situations, so I will seriously look into your suggestion.  Nice to hear from you bro.  ;D

overunity33

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Re: Short Question Thread 2.0
« Reply #219 on: October 15, 2012, 05:09:38 AM »
I have a questions about LSA hydrolysis.

Since it is a non- reversible reaction it wouldn't make too much difference if the reactant was slowly metered in as opposed to having it added all at one time to push the equilibrium, right?

I am wondering if other than longer basic environment exposure for the product, there is not much difference between adding it all at once or metering it in slowly.