Author Topic: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals  (Read 847 times)

dream0n

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Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« on: May 03, 2012, 01:44:22 AM »
Would it work?
On the topic of acquisition through legal entities.  Since the intermediates are not specifically scheduled, take for example chlorosafrole  ;), but would be considered an unlisted precursor (meaning it might go through, but they are going to be watching the address no doubt) that would prove working with a supplier to be very difficult.   ::)
I would venture so far as to say that someone could find a supplier willing to sell it, and that it would be delivered successfully.
But! That is not the question.    ;D   Is there anything -legally speaking- that customs can do, since it is neither scheduled nor is listed specifically if it was ordered to an appropriate business entity. 
off to bigger and better things - don't worry I will visit from time to time

embezzler

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 08:59:30 AM »
Besides inform the DEA?

I think for B2B sales there is a lot less watching done than one would think. IUPAC naming of shipped goods wouldn't hurt either.

Business entities just do the paperwork as I linked in the "appearing to be a professional organization" thread then they don't have to worry.
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salat

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 10:09:24 AM »
Note that they listed "and their salts" and I thought chlorosafrole is a derivative not an intermediate??

Also you appear to be under the illusion that the DEA/Customs etc has to follow rules.  They do what they want, when they want.

Salat

embezzler

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 11:05:26 AM »
Hey Salat,

I guess that they can certainly bend the rules to start an investigation but if a business can display a legitimate use and follow the rules governing the control of these compounds then there is little they can do. There is a lot to be said for a paper trail :-X The job doesn't stop with the delivery and this is seldom discussed on these sites  ::)

p.s. I didnt think Chlorosafrole was a salt of safrole in that the Cl is non ionically bound? Do I need to stretch my definition here?

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E
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RoidRage

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 05:24:54 PM »
p.s. I didnt think Chlorosafrole was a salt of safrole in that the Cl is non ionically bound? Do I need to stretch my definition here?

Chlorosafrole is definitely not a salt of safrole

embezzler

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 06:39:11 PM »
I was really wondering if the Legal definition of a salt differed from a chemists one. I'm not qualified to answer on that one  ???

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dream0n

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 09:01:05 PM »
The definition is what ever the court ( expert witness ) gets paid to say it is..
This is just one example of what I am getting at, those who read between the lines should be able to see how to use this bit of information constructively.
I think it is a valid point that they don't have to follow any rules, and are essentially over the law. It changes how I see things anyhow.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 09:27:06 PM by dream0n »
off to bigger and better things - don't worry I will visit from time to time

salat

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 01:06:32 AM »
Yeah the differences between salt and intermediate are not going to be too fine when the A-holes can't even pronounce the stuff.  My husband still snickers over the court clerk stumbling over pronouncing Methylenedioxybenzaldehyde or whatever - weird sense of humor he's got.

If it gives them enough warrant to search your place then splitting chemical hairs of language won't matter after the fact.

Take a look at "Meth lab" statistics - doya know they count each soda pop bottle as a separate lab!!

Drug Chemist is right up there with "Nazi" and "Child Molester" in the mind of the public.

Salat
Salat

therepublicanpartier

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2012, 06:43:17 PM »
Also remember that since 9/11 not only have the barriers stopping police been knocked down, but the technology available to them has grown.  There are numerous security firms in Isreal that write software to identify suspicious internet activity and they operate at the speed of light.  Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_surveillance
Quote
Computer surveillance programs are widespread today, and almost all Internet traffic is closely monitored for clues of illegal activity.

And also, Cops on that level are good.  If you get into their radar, you will not escape them.  You need to look at every single step in your chain.

fresh1

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2012, 10:09:11 AM »
Quote
that they don't have to follow any rules, and are essentially over the law. It changes how I see things anyhow.

yep  :'(

Quote
And also, Cops on that level are good.  If you get into their radar, you will not escape them.  You need to look at every single step in your chain

yep definitely  :(  Only today I was trying to explain to someone who IS going down (it's just a matter of time) that these dudes are paid to hunt him down AND have a virtual army at their disposal to do it :P

as the cop said to me the first time I was busted  "if your gonna break the law,,don't get caught"  Simple  ::)
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misgnomer77

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 04:49:58 AM »
I'm wondering the same thing, I've been talking with a few manufacturers of pure Apiol I found on a B2B trading platform.. They're very distant from the USA and I don't think Apiol is controlled anywhere on earth though I still want to be cautious and not raise any eyebrows so to speak.

dream0n

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 06:37:14 PM »
misgnomer, what you may find is that one can never be too cautious. Even when you have nothing to hide, still hide your ass like 'they' are watching your every move.
off to bigger and better things - don't worry I will visit from time to time

carl_nnabis

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 09:52:24 PM »
I have mentioned it somewhere else, i knew about somebody who ordered cyclohexylamine benzaldehyde and nitroethan, one liter each, and (dont know exactly) i think shortly after delivery the police showed up, they just want to look around his flat, to see if anything suspicious was going on.
These three chemicals are not watched by law, neither is phenyl-2-nitropropene.
Phenylacetone is watched as precursor, and amphetamine off course is too illegal.
So he had just bought some precursor to make a precursor? Luckily enough he got just charged with methamphetamine production Off course its stupidity at its finest to order these things together, but to think no one will notice or know about this doesnt deserve anything better ;D
Luckily enough if you only made drugs to do them and not to try to get rich, you get away with mostly harmless punishments, if you dont deal, you will probably never get into jail for that sort of hobby.
But when it comes to decisions, the police proves everytime theyre just a bunch of morons, they decide mostly without any knowledge just at the site what is suspicious and what is not. But i could tell you again another story, where somebody went into a pharmacy, bought 50g I2 and left without any stupid questions what it will be used for, and an id was never requested. The latter story happened just a few weeks ago, and this is not really that uncommon.
But a combination some far from reality thinking chemist for a police laboratory recognizes as possible for drug production suited can get you into trouble without a proper law existing for those cases...

And now i get to sleep and try to stop spamming around here!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 10:20:04 PM by carl_nnabis »
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TooCold

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2012, 04:03:45 AM »
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet is that as far as precursors go even if they are list one or derivatives of list one chemicals, obtaining them is not going to be very difficult as long as they have some sort of legitimate use in commerce. There are legitimate uses for iodine, benzaldehyde and even substituted benzaldehydes. However, chemicals like chloro-safrole are not realistic goals for precursors to obtain as they have no commercial uses whatsoever.

Sydenhams chorea

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 06:09:46 PM »
Would it work?
On the topic of acquisition through legal entities.  Since the intermediates are not specifically scheduled, take for example chlorosafrole  ;), but would be considered an unlisted precursor (meaning it might go through, but they are going to be watching the address no doubt) that would prove working with a supplier to be very difficult.   ::)
I would venture so far as to say that someone could find a supplier willing to sell it, and that it would be delivered successfully.
But! That is not the question.    ;D   Is there anything -legally speaking- that customs can do, since it is neither scheduled nor is listed specifically if it was ordered to an appropriate business entity. 


You might want to read this thread before attempting anything foolish:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=21829
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fractal

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2012, 10:14:07 AM »
If you you can make it easily from less conspicuous chems that's always the way to go. You're likely to get it if you go through a company willing to lie on the customs forms though. If you can find someone willing to synth it for you chances are they'll be willing to lie on the forms as they'll know what you are doing. One question you're not asking yourself is about cost. They'll charge you a shit ton as it's work outside of the norm. Not worth it considering how easily you can make halosafrole. The effort in finding someone to make it, then risking it going through customs, and paying more out weighs the convenience in my opinion at least with the compound you mentioned.

And keep in mind a chemical doesn't have to be listed for you to catch a manufacturing charge, if they did find it they may deliver and let you incriminate yourself by monitoring you.

jon

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2012, 07:46:38 PM »
it's best to use an intermediary if your dealing with china find a startup import broker in china town the start up companies don't ask too many questions speak mandarin or cantonesse fluently and will bend a little more to your will because they are lean and hungry.
they also know a thing or two about customs and how to handle this kind of thing.
it also puts a layer of insulation between you and LE.
as far as LE playing by the rules, don't expect it at all.
these days, they are returning blackwater, or military and they just run up in your house and shoot you, and that's it.
forget about it.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 07:50:02 PM by jon »

phaseolus

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 04:15:05 PM »
I think for B2B sales there is a lot less watching done than one would think. IUPAC naming of shipped goods wouldn't hurt either.

B2B sales are watched because they're pretty much 100% of the traffic of reagent-grade chemicals (in the U.S. at least). Front businesses are not an original idea.

By far the biggest risk area is not Big Brother watching your purchases (and it won't be unless you're ordering anything above the reporting thresholds), but those suppliers for any reason at all saying, "This company looks suspicious."

Mango

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 11:01:41 AM »
There is also a non-surveillance list so be careful.

Assyl Fartrate

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Re: Ordering 'Legal' Intermediates of listed Chemicals
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 11:28:24 AM »
What is the source of that image? Interested in more information.

Quote
as far as LE playing by the rules, don't expect it at all.
these days, they are returning blackwater, or military and they just run up in your house and shoot you, and that's it.
forget about it.

The sad truth.
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