Author Topic: NaBH4 reduction helps  (Read 381 times)

mdhard

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NaBH4 reduction helps
« on: August 08, 2012, 02:43:19 AM »
I wonder if it's all right with the process .. please

5g - PdCl2
350g - p-benzoquinina
1200ml methanol
150ml water

mix everything in a big balloon

was added slowly to

600g - safrole
200ml - methanol
mixed

added every 12 minutes ...

.................................................. ................................

reduction for I did ..

250g - mdp2p
1500ml - methanol
500g - ammonium acetate
25g - NaBH4 (addition over 4 hours, always at low temperature of 8C)

.................................................. ..............................


throughout the order process is correct?

could be made to mdma, substituting ammonium acetate for methylamina HCl (powder)?

in the synthesis of labtop, methylamine gas is used .. (Could be replaced by methylamine HCl (powder)?

which the income you would expect from all this?


thank you
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mdhard

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2012, 05:04:49 PM »
I have hcl methylamine, which was made from:


ammonium Chloride
formaldehyde

would like to turn that methylamine hcl in methylamine gas?

must have a solution of methylamine 10% in methanol

thank you
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antibody2

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 08:19:55 PM »
To turn your MeNH2 into a gas it will need to be made basic. To do this take a flask which contains a molar excess of NaOH as an 50% aqueous solution. Add your MeNH2.HCl. Stopper the flask with a hose coming out. That hose will lead into trap to prevent the MeOH from being sucked back into your rxn vessel. (If you want everything dry it will then lead into another flask filled with a dessicant b/w the MeNH2 flask and the suck back flask) then from this your hose will attach to either a pipette or a gas dispersion tube, that will be in a flask of stirred MeOH.

Heat the flask slowly (not above 80°C or you will get water coming over too) with the MeNH2/NaOH   with stirring to drive off your MeNH2 and bubble it in to your flask of MeOH. You want the MeOH to be as cold as possible. Weigh your flask of MeOH periodically to see how much MeNH2 has been absorbed.

et voila!

You might want to do this out of doors, in a garage or in a fume hood or its going to smell to high heaven like dead fish.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 02:53:05 PM by antibody2 »

mdhard

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 10:45:01 PM »
thank you my friend ...

Your explanation was really very good ..
I followed everything you told me ..

I heard that the reaction gas MeNH2 and NaBH4, if all goes well dry income is very good ..

someone already followed this path could report something?

I will soon bring the news forum on this reaction
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Electro´S

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 09:23:38 PM »
Why you choose this route starting from safrole????  Jon's method Bromo/Iodo Safrole looks like more easy and effective (all Right may be effective as the same, but more funny and cheap no doubt)
I think this route is fine if you start from piperonal=> MDP2NP> MDP2P=>MDMA. But from safrole Jon is the best.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 09:25:11 PM by Electro´S »

RoidRage

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2012, 03:32:03 PM »
Why you choose this route starting from safrole????  Jon's method Bromo/Iodo Safrole looks like more easy and effective (all Right may be effective as the same, but more funny and cheap no doubt)
I think this route is fine if you start from piperonal=> MDP2NP> MDP2P=>MDMA. But from safrole Jon is the best.

While I personally 100% believes jon about his experimental results using his method, few others seems to have succeeded in getting acceptable amines yields. The bromo and iodosafrole steps seems high-yielding and as basic it can gets, but there are some issues with either jon's explanations or the experimenter's technique at the amination step considering yield seems to be abyssal most of the time. Seems pretty plausible it's due to non-adequately dried alcohol though. Until those issues are figured out and the results reproductible for everyone, I wouldn't consider jon's method superior to the old-fashioned ways  ;). Eliminating the MDP2P intermediate would definitly makes MDxx syntheses a lot more OTC though ;)

Electro´S

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 05:30:18 PM »
I know RoidRage, lot of information for bromo and iodo, but when methylamine going to IPA, the workup is something like a mystery.
Anyways i think than Jon has written enough to give it several tries until it works. Maybe drying agents is the key for the real success.
Amination at room temperature sounds like a dream.
And the best is than Jon is here, with one PM one would be lucky enough to find the way.  8)

antibody2

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2012, 09:18:48 PM »
check this out mdhard

mdhard

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2012, 09:38:34 PM »
check this out mdhard

really appreciate your great help my friend ...

I'll read the article with a lot of attention.

thank you very much
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Sneak

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 12:18:05 AM »
This is great to see a lot of help offered. I love this community.

Fight the power.
If you really want to enjoy a pure, clean product the only way... is to make it yourself...

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take...

letters

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 11:55:33 PM »
alkylamine.hcl + lots of solid naoh (6g per g of water present/formed in the neutralization), slurried and stirred in toluene (sitting in an icebath) for 30-60 minutes. then the mixture is left to settle for some minutes more and the toluene is decanted from the solids and quickly filtered to give a clear, dry alkylamine/toluene solution suitable for imine formation.

Often the imine formation reaction is done with alcohol as solvent. If so, the solid base must be removed very efficiently or the rxn will fail.

Diethyl ether maybe a better choice than toluene.

atara

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2012, 02:57:54 AM »
Dithionite is supposed to be more selective than borohydride. I don't have refs handy; it's been a while since I looked at that. Triacetoxyborohydride is better still and accessible from borohydride. Furthermore the old amalgam route with nitromethane is actually quite good and certainly more OTC.

I suppose what I'm saying is I'm not entirely sure why you'd do a reduction with borohydride...

xman47

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2012, 02:59:31 AM »
For the reaction using MeAm, don't use MeAm.HCl. Better to gas methylamine in methanol, if you know how to do it well.

I tried it once and failed, I wasted 30 g of MeAm.HCl.

The technique I like most is, add MeAm.HCl to methanol ( better cool it first ) inside a bottle. It will sink to the bottom. Next, add the same molar amount of NaOH. It will also sink to the top of the MeAm.HCl layer. Stopper the bottle WELL.

Let it react a bit, then turn/shake the bottle, finally shake it hard. It will become all white like a milkshake.

Let it stay inside your refrigerator for a few hours ( better make it one day before using ).

Then, decant the top clear ( light yellow color ) liquid, discard the bottom white solids.

Place the liquid inside your boiling flask, add the ketone, turn on your stirring, cool it in ice and water and proceed.

You can achieve 65 % yield.

For small amounts of MeAm.HCl, it is a better technique, more control over the amount you are using and no waste from gassing it in methanol.
 

lugh

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2012, 03:21:36 AM »
Quote
You can achieve 65 % yield.

You can get better yields following these techniques:

https://the-collective.ws/forum/index.php?topic=9873

and these threads might be helpful too:

https://the-collective.ws/forum/index.php?topic=22752

https://the-collective.ws/forum/index.php?topic=11258

https://the-collective.ws/forum/index.php?topic=10867

in achieving that goal  ;)  There are literally a plethora of ways to do a reductive alkylation  :-X  It all depends on the circumstances, which can differ greatly  8)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond

jon

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2012, 12:59:52 PM »
65% is the consistent number i see appear when this is done under hydrated conditions.
consistently..
i liken it to the golden ratio, and the fibonacci sequence, established immovable numbers.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 01:02:06 PM by jon »

jon

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2012, 01:06:35 PM »
also a little known trick is to use poisoned pt/c catalyst poisoned with dmso and ammonium acetate to crank out tons but that's another topic.
this is for mda the only requirement for the methylated version is that the catalyst(this can be determined visually) is prereduced so as not to be poisoned by substrates and always use methanol in any of these kinds of reductive aminations.

why methanol?
it has a cetain acidity pka that stabilzes the intermediates.
nabh4 will never work for mda you can scratch that of the list.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 01:11:22 PM by jon »

letters

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2012, 09:49:31 PM »
@xman47, the the hydroxide in the methanol is reacting with your ketone thus accounting for low yields. You should use a different solvent for the amine neutralization.

newbiechem

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Re: NaBH4 reduction helps
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 04:54:11 AM »
also a little known trick is to use poisoned pt/c catalyst poisoned with dmso and ammonium acetate to crank out tons but that's another topic.

jon, second time i hear someone say that.....it could be easylly done with a sirrys globe 3bar pressure reactor right? like this one...http://syrris.com/batch-products/globe-chemical-reactor/pressure-reactors

you have any more info on that pt/c* dmso * AA reaction?

so the write ups on rhodium about catalytic hydrogenation( https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/mdma.catalytic.html) also work as stated?

thanks alot