Author Topic: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?  (Read 162 times)

atara

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Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« on: August 27, 2012, 03:26:54 PM »
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Ornithine_decarboxylase_mechanism.png

The carbonyl-catalyzed decarboxylation of amino acids -- especially tryptophan -- is well-known. Usually people use acetone or spearmint oil because they're cheap and available. Pyridoxal specifically -- the active form of vitamin B6 -- may have some advantages: the carbonyl is an aldehyde and is conjugated to the pyridine, dramatically increasing the stability of the Schiff base, and the ortho-phenol allows the formation of a cyclic transition state featuring a protonated Schiff base and a deprotonated carboxyl, promoting decarboxylation. So pyridoxal seems like an optimal catalyst for decarboxylating amino acids.

Note.....you failed to mentioned that along with acetone and methanol they use a high boiling solvent such as tetralin, as stated here... also it only works in some amino acids ...not all, so i leave it to you to edit your post as it started some unplesant comments ...now deleted in order to keep it civil .....java

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptophan.html
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 06:48:49 PM by atara »

Quantum Dude

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 03:37:23 PM »
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Ornithine_decarboxylase_mechanism.png

The carbonyl-catalyzed decarboxylation of amino acids -- especially tryptophan -- is well-known. Usually people use acetone or menthol

Show us the reference where acetone is use to decarboxylate amino acids please.

......here are some evidence provided to me.........java


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3544

Quote

    Decarboxylation of Tryptophan in Tetralin With a Ketone Catalyst4
     L- or DL-Tryptophan (102.1 g, 0.5 mol) was suspended in tetralin (250 ml) containing acetone (2.9g, 0.5 moles) and the mixture was heated to reflux for 8-10 hours with vigorous stirring until no more carbon dioxide was evolved and the reaction mixture became clear. The solvent was removed under vacuum, and the residue was distilled under reduced pressure to give a yellow crystalline solid, bp 140-155°C at 0.25 mmHg. This was recrystallized from boiling benzene to afford faint yellow prisms, mp 116-117.5°C (lit 115-117°C).

     The yield with acetone as catalyst was 75%, methyl ethyl ketone 84.4%, 3-pentanone 85% and 2-pentanone 86.2%.

NoteThere was a problem of  not stating using acetone (as a ketone source) in a high boiling solvent (tetralin) by the poster ....so doubts  and flaming occurred.....so please check your posts and avoid flaming.....java
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:02:03 PM by java »

aniracetam

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 04:18:32 PM »
hxxp://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0731708506001762
hxxp://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01632a004

I don't know about acetone, it has a rather low b.p., the use of other ketones has been documented in the articles cited here.

acetophenone is one of the more effective ketones to use
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 04:25:40 PM by aniracetam »
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java

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 10:19:49 PM »
Reference Information


A General Mechanism for Vitamin B6-catalyzed Reactions
David E. Metzler, Miyoshi Ikawa, Esmond E. Snell
J. Am. Chem. Soc.
1954, 76 (3), pp 648–652
Publication Date: February 1954 (Article)
DOI: 10.1021/ja01632a004




Analytical characterisation of the routes by thermolytic decarboxylation from tryptophan to tryptamine using ketone catalysts, resulting in tetrahydro-?-carboline formation
Simon D. Brandta, David Mansellb, Sally Freemanb, Ian A. Fleetc,
Journal of Pharmaceutical and Biomedical Analysis
Volume 41, Issue 3, 7 June 2006, Pages 872–882
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpba.2006.02.007

« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:32:07 PM by java »
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Quantum Dude

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 11:03:22 PM »
Thanks for the link java, still, where does the quote (from the OP on the SM thread) comes from ? Theres no citation or information from a published study.

I have no problem with using acetone as a ketone source in a high-boiler for solely the decarboxylation of tryptophan, but as a general procedure for amino acids, I would like to read the study. Hope things are clearer now.

java

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 11:21:34 PM »
"Decarboxylation of Tryptophan in Tetralin With a Ketone Catalyst4

L- or DL-Tryptophan (102.1 g, 0.5 mol) was suspended in tetralin (250 ml) containing acetone (2.9g, 0.5 moles) and the mixture was heated to reflux for 8-10 hours with vigorous stirring until no more carbon dioxide was evolved and the reaction mixture became clear. The solvent was removed under vacuum, and the residue was distilled under reduced pressure to give a yellow crystalline solid, bp 140-155°C at 0.25 mmHg. This was recrystallized from boiling benzene to afford faint yellow prisms, mp 116-117.5°C (lit 115-117°C).

The yield with acetone as catalyst was 75%, methyl ethyl ketone 84.4%, 3-pentanone 85% and 2-pentanone 86.2%."

.....source,

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptophan.html

Ref. S. Takano, Efficient Synthesis of Tryptamine, Heterocycles 6(8), 1167-1171 (1977)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:24:26 PM by java »
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Quantum Dude

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 11:27:15 PM »
Nevermind, I got it .

Efficient Synthesis Of Tryptamine
S. Takano, T. Nishimura, K. Ogasawara
Heterocycles 6(8), 1167-71 (1977)
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine.takano.html

The reference only indicates decarboxylation of tryptophan, I dont see any comments regarding other substrates. So, on the basis of this reference alone, I dont see how it can generalize to other amino acids.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:29:21 PM by Quantum Dude »

java

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 11:35:28 PM »
......generalization of any procedure is on a trial and test basis, until someone documents other amino acids functioning similar...so experimenting is king .....it's what we do....java

Note: PLP (Pyridoxal Phosphate)acts as a coenzyme in all transamination reactions, and in some decarboxylation and deamination reactions of amino acids

.....so again our original poster made some errors ...hence use caution when posting and be clear in your statements they may surely come back to hunt you.....
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:42:34 PM by java »
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Quantum Dude

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2012, 11:40:23 PM »
Heres a bunch of general procedures (2 papers are in french though) implicating different ketones catalysts, reaction parameters and substrates.



aniracetam

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 04:50:56 AM »
here's a relevant thread.
http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,321.msg23874.html#msg23874

heavy mineral oil is another approach, no catalyst necessary. the advantage is no cyclization, disadvantage is low yield. others have had some success with just naphthalene, or acetophenone.

this chromatogram shows sigma tryptamine standard (> 98%) in the first injection, and tryptamine product obtained following mineral oil reflux in the second injection. note: cyclized products are also known as tryptolines, and would appear in the 170 - 200 mass range, +1.
http://i.imgur.com/oelMo.png

column: Waters Acquity C18, 100um i.d.
sample injection: 5 uL, ~ 1mg/mL
mobile phase: A - 0.1% FA in H20, B - 0.1% FA in ACN
flowrate: 30 uL/min
gradient:0-20 min, 20% B, 20-50min, 100% B; 50-60min, 100% B; 60-80min, 20% B
column temp: 25C
detection: ESI, 5kV, + ion mode

« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 05:04:46 AM by aniracetam »
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Baba_McKensey

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Re: Vitamin B6 to catalyze the decarboxylation of amino acids?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »
One time I heated some tryptophan in glycerine to decarboxylate it after reading the LaDecarbI.pdf reference Quantum Dude posted.  There's something about the use of glycol solvents, IIRC in the reference.  After it was cooled, I mixed it with water which caused the product to precipitate out.  It was an off white powder which turned to black gook when I tried heating it in water.   I never got any black gook when boiling tryptophan in water.  The tryptophan just dissolves in water.  I think I got some tryptamine when heating the tryptophan in glycerine.  About half of it precipitated out, though, after diluting it with water.  Extraction could probably be used to get higher yields.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 09:36:46 PM by Baba_McKensey »