Author Topic: Potential Anhydride route.  (Read 133 times)

2bWinston

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Potential Anhydride route.
« on: October 19, 2012, 08:46:56 PM »
2bfrank, a relation, has asked me to share his latest endevours. HIS WORDS< NOT MINE>

Ive been giving this lots of thought, had it down on paper, the mechanism (see attached). Its a common mechanism for numerous reactions, but applying it to an anhydride formation, one is left with water acting as a potential nucleophile, and thus regenerating the starting reagent - the alkanoic, but if the water is forming an azetrope with toluene, and being much denser, then it will sink in a DS trap, and not bother the formed addition product. That was my thinking, and Ive put it to the test, and last count, 3 hours into the reaction, Ive got 5.5 ml of H2O at the bottom of the DS trap. The reagents i used were of course a legal alkanoic acid - 100ml, definitely not ACETIC  8) along with 20 ml of dry toluene, and initially, I added to the pot at one time, all reagents, which included 1 ml of 33% HCl. The DS trap filled quickly(water wise) and I later added another ml of acid, and in future I will wait for the reaction to reach a steady state then add the acid catalyst. Initially I had it on flat out reflux, and flat out stirring. An hour ago, 3 hours into the reaction, the stir bar got jammed, and I had to slowly start it up, and decided to watch the effect of just a mild stir, but still refluxing away strongly, and I could literally see water hitting the top of the DS trap, and sinking to the bottom, so mild stirring has been maintained, and Im going to check her now. The amount now is 6.2 ml of water, This is not alot, but its over 4 ml, and personally, for such a handy reagent, I dont mind baby sitting, for a day, Just keeping the water cool for the condenser, and if the DS gets totally full of water, ending things, or changing things in order to continue. The expected amount can easily be worked out (half the molar amount of alkanoic used), so anyway, to me having water other than from the 2ml of catalyst, is success, and the reaction itself could be improved, Perhaps more toluene could be advantageous.  This is somewhat new for me, working on a mechanism and adapting it to something that I hadn't seen before, and its this sort of chem that I really enjoy. Anyway, I hope to GOD this isn't a common method, and Im the dumbass reinventing the wheel, but hey, if thats the case, the intention was to share something that i feel has merit, and is worthy of more experimentation,  - peace out. Last check, the pot is now a mild beige color, and water is 7.2 ml.  ;D.  Ill keep on till I get the expected, and then check, but this is looking indeed promising. PEACE OUT.

I just checked, its up to 9 ml, my expected amount for 100ml of alkanoic, is 15.72grams, and being water, then its mls. Im blown away by this.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 09:21:31 PM by 2bWinston »

2bWinston

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Re: Potential Anhydride route.
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 03:36:25 AM »
...and of course I should of tested the product, but to me chemistry is about exploring, and I haven't distilled the product as yet, So will know then if I have had success. I sort of felt, I should of tested first, but fuck it, i was on a roll. Having the time of my life. Im wondering about the solubility of CaCl2 in an carboxylic acid, which if it was, or I used a ptc, it could work the same way, if indeed the mech I presented, does indeed represent what is occurring.

The smartest thing I ever did, was stop giving fuel, and importance on being smart.

Mentioning a ptc, does anyone know of anything OTC that is in short a quaternary cation, with a carbon hydrogen tail. I have heard that some fabric softeners can be used, but you have to be careful, or emulsions big time.

2bWinston

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Re: Potential Anhydride route.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 01:03:51 PM »
So far, and Im doing small scale, Ive gotten 5 ml - which is a small amount to test bp ect. ITs over 120 C, I know that, but Ill scale up, when and if I think this is a potential. So.not as promising as I thought it might be. Ive thought some more, as the night I rattled this out, I was having a late long night - one could say, well, the chloride could behave as a nucleophile, which is something I tend to also experiment with, but looking at changing over to another H30 source and we shall see. Ill shut up about this, until ive got results, either way. Peace out.

2bWinston

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Re: Potential Anhydride route.- 2b's experimental.
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 08:47:48 PM »
Tonight I realised that the azetrope's bp is in the 80's and noted my thinking - reflux flat out, with maximan stirring, was not advantageous at all. I discovered this by initially, having the stirring on full, and then stopping it. Within a minute, I could see snow like droplets falling into the aquaous portiion of the DS trap.  ID then stir like crazy, thinking, its this that is causing a more succesful amount of water being collected, then Id stop, and yet again, Id collect a few more mls of water.  THE azetrope of toluene and water is in the 80's. so I turned the heat down to 3 out of a 10 setting range, and slowed the stirring to a mediocre pace. ITS quite extraordinary watching the effect that temp control, has had, and seeing snow like particles falling into the trap. Ive collected 20 ml, out of an expected 30. So although, I did say, I wont rabbit on about this untill I have actual consistent yields, well, I changed my mind. I personally feel this reaction will work, and just needs tweaking, which of course is good experience for young 2b, as he has not done much azetrope distillation before, and its all in the name of experimental fun.
Im trying to get my head around wtf is happening. I just checked the situation, and couldn't see the water particles dropping into the trap. I revved up the stirrer to flat out, which would break the surface tension, and this seems to cause unreacted acetic acid to rise, so the stirring is maintained for a minute and when I stop the stirring, the surface is gently refluxing, and it is then that I see the formed water dropping into the DS trap. The azetrope's bp, is alot lower than the acetic acid, so I'd say its that, The way I see it, is if water is being collected from a flask with these species, the only mech that I can see plausible, is the one I attached. I think the secret is to remove all the water, and because I hadn't earlier, the water would of reestablished the alkanoic acid.

2bWinston

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Re: Potential Anhydride route.
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 10:34:59 PM »
I need constant temp control. Water bath might do it, and use stirring to explore that effect on its own. Its protonation first, which makes the nucleophilic attack attractive to remove the charged carbonyl, So its all in the flask. Slowly nutting this out. Id be so stoked to work this one, as it would apply to any single carboxylic acid. Hope its cool me writing this out here. I dont give a fuck, no ones responding. Just got the rambles. and if its good, then its here. If its not, Ill delete. 2b

dream0n

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Re: Potential Anhydride route.
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 10:49:41 PM »
2bW - I enjoy the posts, keep on the experimenting. I have nothing further to contribute to the thread, but for the sake of enabling you. Right on!
off to bigger and better things - don't worry I will visit from time to time

2bWinston

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Re: Potential Anhydride route.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 12:57:08 PM »
Thanks for saying that dreamOn, The water wasn't generating enough heat, so I switched to an oil bath, and on a low setting, with very slow stirring, the water was seen to consistently sink in the trap. When I collect the expected 34 ml, I might even reflux with a good drying salt for 30 minutes, just to be absolutely sure that its dry of water, which is the enemy in this situation. I'll fractionally distill the product with a short column, as the bp of 118 and 138, is close. I may in fact have to add some toluene to form an acetrope with any remaining acetic acid and tolune. bp. is 105, which is a bigger gap from the anhydride. Fun and games. ;)

2bWinston

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Re: Potential Anhydride route.
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 08:41:09 AM »
Those bp's are pretty damn close. research suggests this to be somewhat problematic. I dont want to use a long vigreux, as i doubt it would come over, ( I am seriously seeing sense in insulating the column, as the last usage, the bp was fluctuating all over the place) unless 2b applied vacuum, which he doesn't want to add. The other option is to add toluene and form the azetrope with the alkanoic acid b.p., being 105degC, which is a better difference with the 138 deg C of the anhydride. Hmm. He happens to have a small  8 inch column, that he fills with small glass tubing's, and works a treat, but First things first. Get that water out, and use a drying salt to be sure.
He will no doubt apply fractional distillation, as is, and see what results, on half, and the other, add toluene, which may be just adding another issue. but bp, from memory is around 110, so not such a bad one.
Of course their is toluene used to remove the water, but is it going to be enough to remove any unreacted acid. Trial and test.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 08:48:21 AM by 2bWinston »