Author Topic: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate  (Read 243 times)

sassa

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ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« on: December 13, 2012, 03:48:36 AM »
Hi all.
  I was looking further into that reaction since time ago,,but seems not much info about concret methods.
  All info on the web talks about how happens hepatic transesterification of methylphenidate to ethylphenidate when ingested  last one with alcohol(ethanol),but never saw the inverse conversion on any recipe.
 From what i know until date,..following some article,basic will consist on that one pot method:
 
methylphenidate HCL-------------------------------ritalinic acid-----------------------------ethylphenidate HCL
                                      Hydrolized with HCL                       esterified with Ethanol+HCL

I supossed,the inverse reaction can be also easy ,but who knows.treating on last step ritanilic acid with methanolic hcl to get racemic methylphenidate seems to much easy.
I was thinking  on something as simple as refluxing the ethylphenidate on minimum amount acidic methanol,reducing methanol amount at the end and  go with an  acetone flash...or simply evaporation after refluxing too...
Well,my questions it´s simply,...how can one performs that conversion...and most important,what kind of yields can one expect from that reaction?
  Ethylphenidate it isn´t cheap,..like 30$ 2 grams.Cheaper on bulk sure.
  But i´m a real fan of methylphenidate to some situations where other drugs are too strong or too weak...and of course ,it isn´t easy to get on gram quanties because legal problems.
I tested several times the ethylphenidate and it´s not for me at all.There is much info about  really some sellers are listing the really potent ethylphenidate isomer,..but lots of scams too,and anybody can guaranties the seller it´s selling  the isomer listed.
Anyway,i still prefer the methylphenidate,..and allways it´s little painfull to access  because control.
On the other side,i know sellers that list racemic ethylphenidate at verty good prices now,and can be an alternative to get methylphenidate without much legal troubles.
  Like said,i looked into esterification reactions,but don´t found a recipe how to perform it.
  I´ve found latelly that article about ethylphenidate from justice papers where talk a little about esterification process but no much.
  Any idea will be great,as allways!
  hxxp://www.justice.gov/dea/pr/microgram-journals/2011/mj8-2_58-61.pdf DO NOT LINK TO GOVERNMENT SITES
  Ethylphenidate: An Analytical Profile
 U.S. Department of Justice
Drug Enforcement Administration
Special Testing and Research Laboratory
22624 Dulles Summit Court
Dulles, VA  20166
ABSTRACT:  Spectroscopic and chromatographic data are provided for ethylphenidate, a relatively new internet-available
compound, possessing CNS stimulant properties.  Analytical data (infrared spectroscopy, mass spectrometry, and proton/carbon
nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy) are presented.


please no direct links always substitute some letters
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 12:59:13 AM by no1uno »

Sedit

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2012, 04:01:20 AM »
Am I missing something here? This is a basic esterfication correct? Just follow the process used to make Ethylphenidate except use MeOH/HCl instead of EtOH.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

sassa

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2012, 04:16:20 AM »
I don´t know if i´m  explaing well Sedit...i didn´t made ethylphenidate...not methylphenidate.
  I was looking into transform comercial RC ethylphenidate into methylphenidate
  Much doubts are about time and mostly hcl amount.
  Like i´ve told ,i was thinking on simply refluxing the ethylphenidate with methanol on little hcl presence and then let evaporate or crystallize by cooling,..but any idea about time and hcl amount.
 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 04:24:37 AM by sassa »

dream0n

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2012, 05:19:10 AM »
Not part of the discussion, but ritalinic acid is not specifically scheduled...
Ethylphenidate doesn't get cheaper than around 2$/g US without involving a lifetime binge supply.
The methyl ester is far less pleasurable, but perhaps less functional..
off to bigger and better things - don't worry I will visit from time to time

Sedit

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2012, 11:26:22 PM »
I don´t know if i´m  explaing well Sedit...i didn´t made ethylphenidate...not methylphenidate.
  I was looking into transform comercial RC ethylphenidate into methylphenidate
  Much doubts are about time and mostly hcl amount.
  Like i´ve told ,i was thinking on simply refluxing the ethylphenidate with methanol on little hcl presence and then let evaporate or crystallize by cooling,..but any idea about time and hcl amount.
 

I understand exactly what your saying. Its hydrolysis of the Ethylphenidate to get to ritalinic acid and then esterfy it using MeOH/HCl. A very minor grasp of basic chemistry goes a long way here Sassa.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

atara

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 06:45:28 AM »
Why in God's name would you do such a thing?

"Hey, I have this shitty drug, do you know if I can make it worse?"

Anywho, the Google search keyword is transesterification.

sassa

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2012, 11:48:08 AM »
i understood from the begining was almost a stupid question/thread to start...but didn´t expect so much  ::).
   Ritalinic acid it´s hardly available on the web...too,prices of suppliers are not interesting at all vs. ethylphenidate from what i saw.

  I was allways talking about snorting the esters...not oral consumption...that never made on me anything usefull or interesting.The oral effects vs. snorted effects are so extremly different that almost it´s like talking about 2 different drugs.

I´m still on the idea pure snorted methylphenidate it´s a great clean/social stimulant...and it  can get really  strong and fine at not very high doses...I think lots people don´t know how good can be if snorted pure...sure much people are thinking on oral pills effects...But sure each consumer  like/dislikes different highs,....

Finally..racemic ethylphenidate samples i was able to got from 2 differents suppliers ,i felt it really weak,hard on the nose,short duration,...nothing interesting comparable(to me) to pure methyl ester.Still to me one of the best clean stimulants available.,and much better than 90% street coke here,for example..but each ones.... ;).
 
  Have seen too...when first time ethylphenidate was introduced on legal market...much people thought about that hepathic trassterification of methyl ester when ingested with alcohol, resulting on a way more harder and pleassurable effect...thinking that ethylphenidate would  be the way to go...From what i´ve read latelly..that conversion of methylphenidate to ethylphenidate it´s marginal...and latelly,..people talking about  that much stronger effects of the methyl ester when combined with alcohol are impossible to be induced by so low ethylphenidate amounts on blood,..and too..that the transesterification only works on one of the isomers of the methyl ester...resulting on only one isomer of the ethyl ester formed....i supossed that one some seller claims to sell and supossed the only SNC active....
   

« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:08:37 PM by sassa »

atara

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012, 08:54:41 PM »
No, I mean, seriously, you can achieve transesterification under laboratory conditions. Sodium methoxide in methanol should work fine. It's basically the biodiesel reaction.

Though you should probably check the purity of your product first! Ethylphenidate tends to attract the sketchiest vendors for some reason.

As lugh says, the end results from the effort applied.

Sedit

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 05:01:16 AM »
Sorry its off topic but its had me curious for a long time now....

Can you smoke the freebase just like you can with Cocaine since they share similar pharmacology? I have tried with Methylphenidate and it appeared there was some activity but starting with a pure product was near impossible due to the time release binders they put in the pills themselves.

There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

atara

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 06:03:28 AM »
I'm pretty sure you can. I tried to base a Ritalin xr once but I couldn't figure out a way to crush the little balls inside the cap and gave up.

4studiesonly

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 10:51:51 AM »
Aah yes smoking methylphenidate, think they call it "kitty crack" and it does work
Bis zum bitteren ende

sassa

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2012, 07:22:59 PM »
i runned several extractions of rx pills,works well with that kind presetations of a capusule filled with little hard balls.
   crushing that balls,and morter it wto a fine powder,and then extracted with isopropanol at room temperature for an hour-2 hours...resulted allways on a very clean product,..perfectly for snort without almost any goo remaining.
  other thing are those complex hard pills like concertas ,,,that pills are mostly imposible to get a clean product to snort.
 well,i reveived yet the ethylphenidate,5 grams.
i planning today experiment with half a gram,refluxing it o methanol at ph 2-3 30 minutes,then neutralize with sodium carbonate,and then reducing methanol to half volume and let evaporate.
  May that work?what do you think?
 I´ve smoked several times methylphenidate salt.It gives you a stronge "flash" that last short but it´s really pleaseant..way more relaxing than snorting,but definitly and interesting high.
  Well,i will see how performs then the method..Saddly,i have no idea how to test if the methyl ester it´s formed,only but bio test and looking at diference on high.

Sedit

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 01:49:35 AM »
The carboxylic acid will go into a (aq)basic solution and stay there where as the ester should remain as an oil or precipitate for non polar extraction.

Reflux your carboxylic acid in MeOH/HCl solution and allow to evaporate. Wash this with 5% NaOH solution and extract with DCM(emulsion could form due to Na cations) or other non polar solvent and precipitate ester as the amine salt using HCl or other suitable acid.

This is all rather trivial basic highschool chemistry Sassa.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

wasabi

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2012, 08:39:40 PM »
(Iso)propyl ester would be more interesting, no?
Methy/Ethyl are everywhere.

sassa

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2013, 05:41:42 PM »
well...thank´s sedit about all advises..i was looking into something more direct,but sure nothing can be as easy as i was thinking...more than easy,..so straight forward as dessired
  I experimented with refluxing half gram on methanol with some drops 37% HCL 30 minutes.,and then have let evaporate.Snorted the final stuff after cleaning it...and with no testing on hand..pretty sure was still ethylphenidate...posisbly some conversión to methyl ester,i felt minimal stronger effect than plain ethylphenidate,but almost anything...
  Because that,i was asking so much about hcl amount...no much idea i need a very strong acidic methanol to hydrolize de ethyl ester first and then,what conversion yields i will expect.
Sure i was reading a lot ,and not be able to figure it out exactly.
  Go into basic water first was something i was not looking out.
That so basic things are that remin me how little chemistry basics i have ;).But sure i read and read and read,..but when on other methods i felt it really easy to go practical,..here i can´t see the light at the end  :D
 
Sincerily,i was looking into a "one pot method" to take a bunch of ethyl ester and converting to the methyl ester without much work.,with not much matter if resulting stuff it´s contamined with other ester..
About isopropil-/ethyl-/methyl- esters,,i´ve noticed when used hot IPA to extract pills,,the stuff it´s stronger than plain water extractions or methanol extractions... but i was thinking was about the stuff from IPA extraction comes white as hell,,,lot purer than extracting with water,or methanol,but really effect seemed stronger.It´s known the isopropil ester as better?(ethylphenidate it´s sure all ther,but methyl it isn´t so free available)
  I will think then on advises from sedit to perform something that can work without too much work,
  Thank´s all ;)
  Bye

Sedit

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 07:06:21 AM »
Your missing the point completely....

COMPLETELY!!!!!!

You need to perform a transesterfication if you wanted to do it using Ethylphenidate....

Last time I can even say this without completely tossing out this thread due to lack of trying. If you can't be bothered to learn basic chemistry then you should without a doubt not be tossing chemicals together and sniffing the product with nothing to go on other then hopes and prayers.

YOU DONT WANT TO USE ETHYLPHENIDATE!!!
YOU WANT TO HYDROLYSIS IT FIRST TO ITS CARBOXYLIC ACID THEN PERFORM THE ESTERFICATION USING METHYL ALCOHOL!!!
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

sassa

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 06:51:17 AM »


Thanks Sedit ... already knew about basic chemistry was a retard but always fortunate to have somebody that can remember that somettimes ...
i understand the fatigue ... but not the ways ... I think on this forum always introduced myself as someone who had no great knowledge of chemistry, but declined tsure to be included in the group of people that throw questions in the air throwing without having bothered to review all available information.I´m not that kind of guy,and you know it.
Is how it works ... the theoretical Sedit, but nothing worth me without a practical application.
    My field is genetics, and to more specifically molecular biology and biotecnology, .You can be surprised,but can know anything about mapping genes and not much how works a basic esterification.It´s crude reality.On other hand,I'm tired of seeing people learning theory for months and then not knowing how to begin in the laboratory,
Anyway, I do not get angry,,,, I like too ,uch this forum and the people who form it  to take it seriously, or something .. but if I am saw by someone almost as a parasite that does not spend a minute in learning . Sorry to be so blunt, but I thought it´s really bad taste.
I guess you know my contributions to this forum, and always introducing me as someone with serious deficiencies in basic chemistry, I have been involved in processes almost blind, and I'm sure that at least someone will benefit from my experiences .
Do not take me for what I am not Sedit.
I understand your role here, I respect you like one of the most relevant people here, but I can´t understand your indignation and innecesary irony.
    On the topic, I tested the baic  hydrolysis process with heat, extraction with toluene , then I reduced the mixture until complete evaporation and then I put it to reflux in methanol with HCl and then evaporate and heat to clean.
I gotI  nothing.
never mind, it's my way of learning.
Of course I read all the literature available at this time about the esterification of methylphenidate, ethylphenidate and esters in general.
Thank´s

Sedit

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Re: ethylphenidate esterification to methylphenidate
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2013, 07:19:23 PM »
I just attempting to show you the direction you need to take Sassa and it seems like you are completely ignoring my post as you go along with your experiments and its frustrating as all hell.

Steps...
1: Hydrolysis of Ethylphenidate
2: Esterfication of the Acid using MeOH/HCl or H2SO4
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!