Author Topic: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question  (Read 306 times)

mildronate

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 05:58:25 AM »
no just had carbonate in lab

fishinabottle

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2013, 07:17:01 AM »
Thanks so much for the responses, Org I am working on a new method based on what you have said now.

My main concern is also purity not yield, although my very small yield is something I would like to fix. The P2NP is fairly pure as I have ~100g of recrystalized in a freezer, and I recrsytalize again before each batch. The reason for heating the IPA up before adding to the reaction mixture was to make sure complete dissolution, which usually results in a clear liquid. I do not have overhead stirring so fast magnetic will have to do for now, which seemed to work fairly well last time, especially if the foil balls are nice and small.

So after the reaction is completed:
-Add water and distill alcohol out of post reaction fluid (Recover IPA)
-Distill at high temperature for rigorous boil to get all majority of water into receiving flask, driving shit out. (Discard dirty water solution obtained from distillation)
-Once majority of water is distilled out of reaction fluid, basify to pH 14 with sodium carbonate and NaOH solution.
-Steam distill over freebase from reaction flask until nearly dry - magnetic stirring is stopped.
-Receiving flask of freebase in water is extracted with solvent (I dont have petrol ether only diethyl ether, I have access to Toluene or IPA what do you think would be best here?)
-Im not sure what you mean by switching solvent, but assuming I extract the freebase/water mixture with Toluene, then distill off the Toluene leaving freebase residue which is then dissolved in IPA?
-I have an IPA/H2SO4 prepared in a dropper which was rinsed with acetone prior to make sure it is dry.
-Drip in IPA/H2SO4 solution until pH 7, flood suspension with acetone and chill to drive out all precipitate (I use this method as Shulgin uses it in his MDA write up and it seems to work well, as amphetamine is also insoluble in acetone and will effectively wash the amphetamine whilst also causing it to crash out)
-Vacuum filter and wash with acetone/cold IPA

Hopefully this will give a relatively pure product. If it isnt pure enough, surely I could purify further by recrystalization/non-polar washes.
i.e
-Dissolve dirty product in water
-Wash two or three times with Toluene/Naptha/DCM or other solvent
-Basify and resalt

What do you think! Once I can get some good pure products I will be able to start working with larger quantities and will be able to purify much better by vacuum distillation of the freebase.

Thanks for everyone's contribution so far, and Org correct me if I am wrong!

What I forgot is never to let the reaction die or even slack, switch on external heating early so there is no up and down but from the high at beginning to constant boiling until the end.

Thats ok, just dont distill near dryness when steamdistilling but add enough water, if needed also refill some. Distilling out to much water raises the temperature and nobody wants to see the white smoke of death which results from overheating....
You can of course also hook up an external source of steam
Diethylether is good, not so selctive but still ok. I used a low-boiling solvent for it makes the change to IPA so much faster without putting any stress on the target compound. Also here dont remove ALL ether but fill in the IPA before only base is left not to vaporize your product.

The crystallisation in steps was used as trustworthy readings of ph from the dry IPA/H2SO4 never happened and seeing everything going red (again!) was to much for my nerves. Its just playing safe.

Processing large amounts with this reaction is difficult, people do 150g of P2NP in 12l flasks with refilling a lot of lost IPA, must be a dance on the volcano as it sounds....


Regarding the Urushibara:
@no1uno
Quote
If the write-up is up to snuff, and this one appears to be
  What writeup are you referring to?

I was not cynical when telling I want to see a working Urushibara (on P2NP) as I agree the nickel reduction has potential and I would like to pursue it myself not only for nitro to amine but in reductive amination for example.
I doubt though that TMA and other substituted compounds can be behave the same as plain P2NP in this reaction, they cannot be compared like this.
So yes, sure experiment rules and if some try there are chances to find a way what would be great as the acidic Al/Hg is just shit from the volumes needed. What a treasure would a robust reproducable decent yielding Ni based method be!

For iron reduces the nitro group nicely but has problems with the double-bond reduction (but I still think iron prepared in the right way with the right conditions will do), a mixed catalyst might be worth a try, or a kinda two-step starting with Ni and iron added after some time? Other metals?


/ORG
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 08:15:21 AM by fishinabottle »

mildronate

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2013, 05:24:42 PM »
its not true with iron you will het p2p not amine i tested it

Electro´S

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2013, 12:41:05 AM »
its not true with iron you will het p2p not amine i tested it

Even Stannous is a little art.  ;D

uchiacon

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2013, 07:36:11 AM »
There seems to be an eery silence regarding this urushibara reduction. Either because it works, or because it doesnt work. I didnt manage to find any info about it here or on the collective.

To my understanding you need to have an overhead stirrer as nickel is ferromagnetic. Of course, my understanding is limited to the reference on erowid  ;D

I will certainly give it a try when I make an overhead stirrer. I do not like working with mercury.

I also have some gallium, but I am unsure how to make an aluminium amalgam with it, short of melting Al and gal together.

Scarecrow

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2013, 08:30:15 AM »
I am fairly busy at the moment, I will give this a go over the weekend. I think I will post pictures/guide for both the nickel and the amalgam with new method im still trying to refine based on everyones suggestions.

uchiacon

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2013, 12:49:35 PM »
you might beet me to it, I'm fairly busy for the next 2 weeks ;)

fishinabottle

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 11:45:49 AM »
I also have some gallium, but I am unsure how to make an aluminium amalgam with it, short of melting Al and gal together.
As afr as I know thats exactly whats to do, heat Al and Ga together until Ga melts and then shake it to disperse Ga over the Al. It will penetrate immediately, there will be no completely amalgamated surface only sprinkles, but thats ok. More Ga then Hg is needed, some say it works the same some say not so good.

I suggest to make a test as the Ga is wetting glas and you want it on and in the Al and not making a mirror on the glass. Probably Polypropylene is much better then glass when making your amalgam.
Once thats made you can use it the reaction with normal glassware.

Adding a small amount of mercury salt or Ga to a Urushibara might make a hell of a difference as I feel, but thats only a noneducated guess of a simple chemhack nothing more.

/ORG

fishinabottle

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 12:04:05 PM »
its not true with iron you will het p2p not amine i tested it
Iron is the best way to P2P thats known and I never said something else. But just because you did not get the amine it doesnt say at all that there is no way to do this.
Quote
Indeed iron catalysts are known to transfer hydrogen to CÀC double bonds. Early examples were carried out with metal salts activated by aluminum compounds in the hydrogenation of non-funtionalized alkenes under comparatively mild reaction
conditions (0–35  C and low hydrogen pressure) 
cited from: Iron Catalysis in Organic Chemistry

I am tracing the named references now. Iron catalysts are used to reduce double bonds in industry huge scale. Reduction of nitrocompounds to amines is in the related literature (lab-scale, homogenous, mild conditions). Mostly some alkyl-aluminium compound is used as hydrogen donor/transfer agent, but they reduce habitually things which are much harder then our styrene. I am sure another hydrogen source can be found or a mixed iron/nickel catalyst makes it smooth.

Work in progress though, have to go to the big library many references are not online, stuff from the old east.

/ORG

Scarecrow

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Re: P2NP -> Amphetamine Synthesis question
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2013, 10:30:08 AM »
Hmm doesn't look like im going to get time to attempt this for a while now, I have a fairly busy month coming up.