Author Topic: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.  (Read 202 times)

Vesp

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Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« on: September 27, 2009, 06:12:18 PM »
I have been using a water pump to pump water through my reflux and condenser set up, it is originally designed for the use in small ponds to form fountains and water falls.
I've only used it with water that is just a bit lower then room temperature, but I have always wondered if it has the potential to be used with way colder temperatures, in a salt or alcohol water solution.
I don't see why it couldn't be, however, I really don't want to break it. I fear that maybe the salt could short circuit it, and maybe the alcohol, if used, could dissolve something?

Has anyone ever used a pump similiar to mine with an ice/salt water bath or perhaps even an alcohol dry ice bath?

What is the highest temperatures you've used a water pump such as mine for? I doubt it could with stand boiling water, but maybe?

If it is able to hold up to hot and very cold temperatures while being submerged in salts or some types of diluted solvents, this really would be great for a lot of experiments and procedures. 

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poisoninthestain

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2009, 07:01:32 PM »
I have the same pump haha but I've never ran anything  colder than ice water. I'd imagine it could take an alcohol/dry ice setup...that's just an educated guess though. My parts are all magnetic so I don't see why not.

Douchermann

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2009, 12:24:29 AM »
Salts wont hurt it, the motor is protected from what it's pumping.  The only problem with alcohol is that I know alcohol can mess up some rubber seals.  It dissolves rubber used for fuel lines in certain automobiles, but I don't know what kind of rubber they use in those pumps.  The cold wont hurt it, so that isn't a concern.

heisenberg

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2009, 12:29:14 AM »
I've successfully run ethylene glycol / ice water, salt/ice water, and IPA / ice water through my $5 harbor freight pump.
I spent all my money on booze and hookers, the rest I wasted - Charles Bukowski

Vesp

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2009, 12:32:41 AM »
Awesome.. that might be exactly what I have..

I was thinking a mixture of alcohol/dry ice might cause some problems, but I've always thought it would be interesting to distill something that needed that low of a temperature to condense.
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heisenberg

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2009, 12:53:02 AM »
The primary problem that I foresee is that the plastic could shatter from being so cold.
I spent all my money on booze and hookers, the rest I wasted - Charles Bukowski

Formula409

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2009, 02:31:40 AM »
I have a small $15aud pump, junk really.
The damn thing struggles to pump water through a vertical condenser, however, once it is flowing it works well.
Now I'm assuming we have the same pump, and if this is the case I have used Salt/Ice/Water solutions all the time with mine, however, I don't think I'd trust it with acetone.

I'm now thinking ethylene glycol could be the way with this pump, because I know from past endeavours with water-cooling my computer that similar pumps run fine with anti-freeze mixes.  :o

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Vesp

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2009, 02:36:52 AM »
Pretty sure it is the same pump, or close enough to it that it wouldn't matter.
Mine has problems with that as well - I think I will upgrade eventually but I don't have enough time to break it via solvents and temperatures let alone to go find a new and better one.

Ps... Does anyone have a chart of how cold you can get things using different salts, solvents, and things like dry ice, etc? I'd love to see one if anyone has a nice link..

I've heard -78 for dry ice and ethanol.. IIRC

That is pretty good.
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Douchermann

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2009, 05:27:59 AM »
Whatever solvent you use with the dry ice should get damn close to the sublimation point of CO2.  Assuming good thermal conductivity.  I don't forsee the dry ice causing a problem, assuming you take some precautions.  Let the pump circulate in just alcohol for a while to warm up the motor and bearings, then add the dry ice.

iknowjt

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2009, 12:14:50 PM »
I have a 3$ pump yanked out of a zen garden fountain.  Sometimes I want a quick jolt down in temp so I pour ice into the reservoir mug well above the water line, and just dump a salt-trucks amount of NaCl.  Then a bit later add water or rubbing alcohol.  Over all my little pump gets vulger treatment from me.  Once in a while I see it struggling and the flow rate starts to lag more and more.  Than i have to give it a tune-up:  wash off all water that becomes slimey-grimey for some reason, and take the case off and scrub the paddle-wheel with a tooth brush for a second or two, just like I would with any mechanical moving devices I use/abuse on a constant basis.


Acetone might goo up some part not immedietally visible and cause a more permanent lag/stall, I would think.  With $3 zen garden pumps in mind, anyway.

Dongle

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2010, 04:55:27 PM »
Good god, what are you people condensing? At these temps, I'd imagine the condensor clogged full of crystals!


Vesp

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2010, 08:39:26 PM »
Well, mine was just an interest and I never used anything really cold, but there are things that you may want to condense, for instance NH3, NO2/N2O4, Cl2, and other things like that.
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drone1240

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2010, 09:37:06 PM »
Pretty sure it is the same pump, or close enough to it that it wouldn't matter.
Mine has problems with that as well - I think I will upgrade eventually but I don't have enough time to break it via solvents and temperatures let alone to go find a new and better one.

Ps... Does anyone have a chart of how cold you can get things using different salts, solvents, and things like dry ice, etc? I'd love to see one if anyone has a nice link..

I've heard -78 for dry ice and ethanol.. IIRC

That is pretty good.

This chart is from UC Davis ChemWiki

   Temperature
   Mixture Composition
0 °C    Ice
-20 °C    Equal amounts of ice and NaCl. The actual temperature obtained will depend on how finely crushed and well mixed the components are, and could be as high as -10°. A dewar is recomended.  Brine/ dry ice produces an identical mixture.
-40 °C    Acetonitrile/dry ice. Put the acetonitrile into the Dewar with your thermocouple, slowly add dry ice until you hit your desired temperature. Don't add too much dry ice or you'll freeze the MeCN solid.
-78 °C    Dry ice/acetone:  Slowly adding acetone to dry ice will minimize the amount of dry ice you need to handle.  Alternatively, you must slowly add dry ice to the acetone or the large volumes of carbon dioxide produced will cause rapid bubbling.
-98 °C    liquid nitrogen/methanol
-131 °C    liquid nitrogen/n-pentane

Temperatures between -20 and -80° can be obtained using varied mixtures of ethylene glycol and ethanol over dry ice.

A little more detailed list taken from the Hoveyda group website at Boston College.
Temperature      Mixture Composition
13 °C    p-Xylene/ dry ice
12 °C    Dioxane/ dry ice
6 °C    Cyclohexane/ dry ice
5 °C    Benzene/ dry ice
2 °C    Formamide/ dry ice
0 °C    Crushed Ice
-5 -> -20 °C    Ice/Salt
-10.5 °C    Ethylene Glycol/ dry ice
-12 °C    Cycloheptane/ dry ice
-15 °C    Benzyl alcohol/ dry ice
-22 °C    Tetrachloroethylene/ dry ice
-22.8 °C    Carbon Tetrachloride/ dry ice
-25°C    1,3-Dichlorobenezene/ dry ice
-29 °C    o-Xylene/ dry ice
-32 °C    m-Toluidine/ dry ice
-41 °C    Acetonitrile/ dry ice
-42 °C    Pyridine/ dry ice
-47 °C    m-Xylene/ dry ice
-56 °C    n-Octane/ dry ice
-60 °C    Isopropyl Ether/ dry ice
-77 °C    Acetone/ dry ice
-77 °C    Butyl Acetate/ dry ice
-83 °C    Propyl Amine/ dry ice
-83.6 °C    Ethyl Acetate/Liq N2
-89 °C    n-Butanol/Liq N2
-94 °C    Hexane/Liq N2
-94.6 °C    Acetone/Liq N2
-95.1 °C    Toluene/Liq N2
-98 °C    Methanol/Liq N2
-100 °C    Ethyl Ether/dry ice
-104 °C    Cyclohexane/Liq N2
-116 °C    Ethanol/Liq N2
-116 °C    Ethyl Ether/Liq N2
-131 °C    n-Pentane/Liq N2
-160 °C    Isopentane/Liq N2
-196 °C    Liq N2
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Prepuce

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2010, 01:42:42 AM »
The pump I got from HF is magnetically coupled to the motor, and the motor is sealed in epoxy. It's probably the same one you guys have. As long as the plastic doesn't dissolve you should be okay using it for whatever you like.

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Doc B

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Re: Water Pump, Salts, Alcohol and Temperatures.
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2012, 06:03:53 PM »
A previously owned pump of such a design was largely dissolved in an acetone/dry ice mix and caused an inferno. Hilarity ensued, then panic and fire extinguishers, the hilarity again.

Why the dry ice didn't sublime and put out the fire is still a mystery.