Author Topic: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?  (Read 118 times)

agmotes165

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Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« on: February 19, 2009, 02:00:01 AM »
Ok, so I dont have much experience with microscopes, but i've been thinking about this for a long time.

If you could use a microscope, and say a small needle as your spore mover, Could you make a really dilute spore syringe and place a small drop on a slide from each strain, close enough so that they would be easy to join later, and use a small needle and some trial and error to get one and only one spore in each drop (granted after filddling with this long enough the drops would be really small) and then move each spore into the center in one very small water drop...then add a very small amount of sterilized LME/Dex LC solution on top of the spores, thus encouraging them to germinate.  :P

Now when the monokaryotic mycelium from one spore meets the monokaryotic mycelium from the other spore, they will form dikaryotic mycelium, each cell of which would contain one nucleus from one strain and one nucleus from another strain...thus forming a new strain that would be a hybrid of the other two. One could then easily transfer that to a small liquid culture or agar petri and clean it up a bit since you might have contamination or just to grow it out to make enough health mycelium to inoculate a BRF jar...then from there you have spore prints and a new strain is born!  :D

Now i realize that this would take many attempts to get right...and i also realize that one would have to do this in a sterile environment...then only thing that i dont have a full grasp on is the ability to move things that small around...it might be impossible  ::) It just seems like if it could work, then it would be much more reliable than the old way of letting two dikaryotic cultures grow into each other on a petri and hope that they exchange some genetic material through the cell walls...and even then you aren't guaranteed a complete hybrid... :'(

anyway...what do you think?
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agmotes165

Vesp

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 02:20:47 AM »
does having 2 spores germinating by each other and combine lead to them fusing to make a new strain?
Is there a difference between hybridizing, and making a new strain?
I am guessing a strain is with in the same species, while a hybrid is with in the same genus?


This is probably useful for what you are asking.
http://www2.psu.ac.th/PresidentOffice/EduService/journal/27-5-pdf/05-protoplast-fusion.pdf

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 02:23:40 AM by Vesp »
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agmotes165

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 02:37:36 AM »
They didn't describe the process for isolating single spores...but yes that is the basic idea behind what i was thinking...and i think the term would be hybrid strain...which would be synonymous with new strain. Like for instance, if you tried this with P. cubensis var. penis envy (sorry if i screwed up the nomenclature) and P. cubensis var. orissa india, then you would end up with a hybrid strain or new strain, something like P. cubensis var. orissa envy or P. cubensis var. penis india  :o . If you managed to do this with, say, P. cubensis and P. azurescens...which might be possible...especially using the method described in that article...then you would have a hybrid species, or new species, in the genus Psilocybe

Thanks for the input...what do you think?
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agmotes165

Vesp

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2009, 11:17:36 PM »
Are you sure adding two mycelial growths together just doesn't create chimeras? I have a hard time seeing how simply mixing them would lead to protoplast fusion. 

I think making chimera mushrooms would be just as useful however. I bet if you were to mix one species, that is high in active indoles, with another that produces a larger yield, you could get one that is moderately high yielding, and with higher concentrations of actives.
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agmotes165

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2009, 05:10:35 AM »
Sorry about all the confusion, I didnt know what i was talking about earlier...

My idea was for a method to form hybrid strains of P. cubensis only.

My newest idea inspired by the one and only Vesp, is to use protoplast fusion to attempt a hybrid of P. cubensis and P. azurescens...I am currently pouring over scholarly articles about this technique and getting together a method for trying this. I will post details of my method...which is purely theoretical right now...when im not dog-ass tired...

But yea, I won't be attempting protoplast fusion until the fall...I will however research and amass resources and equipment in the meantime...details of my plans will follow shortly.
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agmotes165

Vesp

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2009, 05:14:25 AM »
If you did protoplast fusion you'd be my hero. I have always wanted to do this, and if you succeeded it would only prove that it is possible to do it at home. Personally, I'd like to do it with plants, but with mushrooms it is probably easier, more practical and useful.

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OoBYCoO

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 12:18:15 AM »
I read somewhere that PF used rattlesnake venom to breakdown the cell walls to aid in a successful hybridization.

Vesp

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 06:02:18 AM »
I have read that as well, it is some protien/enzyme the vemon and it is incredibly expensive. I don't understand the roll of the vemon either - it would seem to me that something as simple as chitinase would be needed, than you would just need to induce the protoplasts using either the propylene glycol or electro method.
I think the only real difficulty here is that you are working at such a small level - not necessarily that anything is that out of reach technologically, or to expensive - though I could be wrong.

Protoplast fusion has so much potential in my eyes, I think we need to work towards this.. but I still do not feel I have the know how to start attempting anything - and so I shall just continue to read. :P

as for the original question - you would probably want to do this on potato-dextrose agar as opposed to the LC suggested. PDA is easy to spot contams and the contaminations are easier to correct or to rescue part of the clean mycelium, while LC contaminated a lot more easily and once that happens you are out of luck.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 06:04:09 AM by Vesp »
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OoBYCoO

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Re: Possible process for 100% assured new strain?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 06:11:44 AM »
Not to mention that you can't visually see a contamination in the LC until it is used to grow out on a substrate.