Author Topic: Methyl-MgBr Practicalities / General Grignard Reagent Questions  (Read 95 times)

timecube

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Methyl-MgBr Practicalities / General Grignard Reagent Questions
« on: December 25, 2009, 09:54:08 AM »
There are a few reactions of interest requiring the use of a methyl grignard, the addition to imines being one of them.

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html

Ideally, MeMgI would be used in these situations since it has a friendly boiling point, but with the growing lockdown on iodine and iodides, starting from Methyl Bromide looks to be more sustainable.

Generation of MeBr doesn't look too be too much of a problem, but after that is when things start to get interesting..

1.  Drying:  What is a suitable way to ensure the produced MeBr is dry?  Can distilling through CaCl cause displacement reactions?  Would MgSO4 be suitable?  Or maybe just bubbling through H2SO4?

2.  Grignard formation:  MeBr is miscible in ether, which is nice, but I know grignard reactions generally have to be heated to get them started.  I haven't worked with grignard reactions before, and I'm wondering if it's possible to carry it out at a temperature where the MeBr isn't going to just boil away?  Maybe just carry it out under pressure?

Also, it is supposed to be considerably difficult or at least take considerably more time to initiate the formation of a grignard reagent without the addition of an iodine crystal.  Does anyone know how effective some of the other methods of initiation are, such as crushing or scratching up the Mg to expose the clean surface, or adding a bit of HgCl2?

I know that's a battery of questions, but I can see a lot of potential uses for it.
Guh.. not being able to experiment properly is killing me.. will hopefully be moving somewhere with a lot more privacy soon.

heisenberg

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Re: Methyl-MgBr Practicalities / General Grignard Reagent Questions
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2009, 07:00:35 PM »
1.  Drying:  What is a suitable way to ensure the produced MeBr is dry?  Can distilling through CaCl cause displacement reactions?  Would MgSO4 be suitable?  Or maybe just bubbling through H2SO4?

Pass it through anhydrous CaCl2.

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2.  Grignard formation:  MeBr is miscible in ether, which is nice, but I know grignard reactions generally have to be heated to get them started.  I haven't worked with grignard reactions before, and I'm wondering if it's possible to carry it out at a temperature where the MeBr isn't going to just boil away?  Maybe just carry it out under pressure?

You could make the ether solution separately, and then use it instead of handling the gas. I bet it could be possible without anything too fancy if you used a reflux condenser w/ ice cold coolant. It would also be good to have a vent to the outside.

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Also, it is supposed to be considerably difficult or at least take considerably more time to initiate the formation of a grignard reagent without the addition of an iodine crystal.  Does anyone know how effective some of the other methods of initiation are, such as crushing or scratching up the Mg to expose the clean surface, or adding a bit of HgCl2?

I've heard HgCl2 is supposed to be as effective as I2. Crushing/grinding also will certainly speed it up.
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heisenberg

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Re: Methyl-MgBr Practicalities / General Grignard Reagent Questions
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2009, 12:23:22 AM »
An issue worth bringing up with MeBr is its ability to eat through/pass through many common tubing materials. Teflon tubing is a must.
I spent all my money on booze and hookers, the rest I wasted - Charles Bukowski

timecube

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Re: Methyl-MgBr Practicalities / General Grignard Reagent Questions
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2009, 01:52:59 AM »
I wonder if the tubing couldn't be skipped somehow and the MeBr directly formed and dissolved into the ether, like HCl is dissolved directly into the solvent in this recent post.

http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,713.0.html

Something like an H2SO4/MeOH/CaCO3/NaBr system directly stirred with ether with cooling or reflux, then extract and dry the ether.