Author Topic: Make acetone anhydrous?  (Read 418 times)

llamabox

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Make acetone anhydrous?
« on: March 02, 2009, 02:55:21 AM »
I am going to need to clean my Mescaline HCL and was told to use anhydrous acetone. Will this method work well on general hardware store bought acetone?

Dehydrate the MgSO4.7H2O using heat
Cool in a closed jar
Pour the powder into the acetone
Shake & let stand for an hour
Filter the rehydrated epsom salt from the acetone

Vesp

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 02:59:02 AM »
yes I think that should work and it is probably the easiest way to go about it. I don't know if it is the most effective. I think other salts could probably be used to make the acetone anhydrous as well, though I am not to sure which ones would be the best.

Make sure you add an excess of magnesium sulfate to get all of the water. :)
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Douchermann

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 08:06:50 AM »
MgSO4 is actually fairly weak on the dehydrator list.  I would suggest calcium chloride instead - it comes already dry, you can buy it in very large amounts (50lb sack of salt free ice melter is under $20.00), and it's a stronger desiccant than MgSO4. 

poisoninthestain

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2009, 11:12:49 PM »
All I know is that calcium chloride reacts with amines and alcohols...i'm not sure if this would cause any problems with mescaline hydrochloride because it's a salt.

Enkidu

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2009, 11:15:39 PM »
You need to make sure that there aren't any corrosion inhibitors, etc in your acetone. Evap several mLs and see if there's any oily residue left. It's always best to fractionally distill your OTC solvents before use.

Vesp

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2009, 11:19:54 PM »
How does it react with amines or alcohols, especially amines? Sounds interesting. Perhaps it complexes with them, as it does ammonia, and with alcohol, as it does with water?
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 11:48:41 PM »
Yep, mainly complexes, as far as I understand it.

Enkidu

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 12:03:02 AM »
^ I haven't heard this.

Vesp

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 12:07:45 AM »
Yeah, I can't find any information on it.. sources?
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 10:37:21 AM »
http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/equipment/dryingagent.html

...that's a ref. for the incompatibility issue but I'll still post a ref. for why it doesn't work if I come across it.

You probably can't find anything because it's somewhat shrouded in boring-ass inorganic texts, maybe even analytical.

My one professor told me some time back but I can't remember. I'll go out on a limb and say that it's because the calcium dissociates in one way or another to the less electronegative nitrogen pairs such as amines/amides and hydroxyl groups(because of the oxygen bond) such as phenols and alcohols. My reasoning for this is because CaCl2 works fine on halides which are extremely electronegative but not so much the lesser electronegatives such as oxygen and nitrogen. Try looking under dipole movements in an inorganic lab book. That's probably the only way you'll find a word-for-word answer.

MgSO4<3

« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 10:43:29 AM by poisoninthestain »

iknowjt

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2009, 11:01:11 PM »
MgSO4 is a pretty good drying agent....CaCl2 an even better one....for anything BUT acetone, experience has taught me.

Here's the quick and simple thing to do:
NaHCO3, plain old baking soda  .....throw it on a stainless steel frying pan.

5-10min later:    Na2CO3    very quick, and complete reaction

let the sodium carb cool down a bit, and mix with acetone.
Try it once and you'll forget you ever used epsom salts


Prepuce1

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 04:58:03 AM »
Every time I've tried drying acetone with MgSO4 I've found a little bit dissolved in the acetone. MgSO4 is a very effective laxative, BTW.

I haven't tried Ikowit's suggestion of using NaCO3, but you can buy NaCO3 at the grocery store where it's known as washing soda.

PP

iknowjt

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 08:13:24 AM »
I originally hunted down arm&sickle 'super_duper_washing_soda', after 2 boxes the Humungus super market down the way stopped carrying it. 



I tried the thermal decomposition reaction, as suggested by a dark room guru.  complete reaction was verified via .01g accuracy scale.
2 moles bicarb -> 1 mole washingsoda
10 minutes no joke

nothing visual about it, kinda strange

also takes care of concern for the need to dry Na2CO3 from the box.

must pay my dues and note that SM tipped me off about Na2CO3 for drying acetone....it was the consensus



(As for MgSO4: ahh yes a fine laxative, hehe, also if uningested, unmatched for undoing all kinds of harm i may have done to my body)
 

Prepuce1

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2009, 01:59:26 AM »
I have to agree with you about the dark room gurus. There are several around here. One told me the other day that I could take my nasty drain cleaner H2SO4 and make it look great by adding a dash of H2O2. It took about a day to oxidize the nastiness out of it, and it now looks like lab grade.

I often wonder how these guys come up with this stuff!

Too bad about the A&H washing soda. I depend on it for a lot of things, but I think they have it in 20 lb bags at the pool store. Not under the same name, of course, but I believe it's added to balance the acid demand. (Buffer the pool?)

PP

Naf1

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 02:19:06 AM »
(zeolite) Molecular sieve 3A is the best method going for drying Acetone, Alcohols etc. Will produce bone dry acetone quickly! They are acquired easily and cheaply OTC and can be regenerated by drying them, and used again.

Vesp

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 02:57:40 AM »
Quote
hey are acquired easily and cheaply OTC

... any hints as to where?
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Naf1

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2009, 03:59:54 AM »
I have found molecular sieves on ebay by searching "zeolite" but they only seem to have 4A. But 4A is too big to use for ethyl, methyl alcohols and acetone.

You definitely need 3A;
http://www.agmcontainer.com/desiccantcity/desiccant_bulkdesiccant.htm?utm_id=5
Will probably sell you a 25kg bag! It would be nice to buy bulk things like that and separate them down to say 500gram or 1 kilo packs and sell them to members for no profit!

Also many China sources for this unrestricted item, but if you wanted to shop OTC locally I would look into the places that supply you with all you need to produce biodiesel.

Bulk
http://www.biofuelsystems.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=297

Reasonable
http://www.adcoa.net/

Reasonable; 10 pounds = $72
http://deltaadsorbents.thomasnet.com/viewitems/bulk-desiccants/molecular-sieves-desiccants




iknowjt

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2009, 06:32:00 PM »
I have to agree with you about the dark room gurus. There are several around here. One told me the other day that I could take my nasty drain cleaner H2SO4 and make it look great by adding a dash of H2O2. It took about a day to oxidize the nastiness out of it, and it now looks like lab grade.

I often wonder how these guys come up with this stuff!

Too bad about the A&H washing soda. I depend on it for a lot of things, but I think they have it in 20 lb bags at the pool store. Not under the same name, of course, but I believe it's added to balance the acid demand. (Buffer the pool?)

PP

No, really though.  It works. 
The equation:

2 NaHCO3 ----> Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2
168.014 g         105.99g

What I did:
Used a 100g reference weight to test the accuracy of my scale.  Reading: 100.01g
Weighed out 168.02g of Baking Soda purchased from the 24hour corner store.
Placed on frying pan, made of stainless steel or other fancy alloy.
Heated for 10min.  Almost nothing seemed to happen except strangely colored flashes apeared by the flame.
I let it cool, placed on the same scale:  105.6g


Suspicous of foul play, due to it being too easy, and too perfect, I made 2 solutions of distilled water, one with a pinch of baking soda out of the box, one with the obtained product from the above experiment.  Added Red Cabbage extract.  There was a very noticable difference in color, where the solution suspected of being Na2CO3, was much more greenish/yellow.  The baking soda solution, much stronger hue of blue/purple.




Vesp

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2009, 11:58:36 PM »
Was the NaHCO3 boiled in water to form the Na2CO3? I know this method works at least to some degree, and I think pretty well. The CO2 is driven off pretty fast with the boiling water, and one is left with a solution of Na2CO3 which can then be ppt, or evaporated and then dried and used.
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iknowjt

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Re: Make acetone anhydrous?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2009, 03:30:00 AM »
yes i'm the boiling in water method I've used before, often a procedure requiring Na2CO3 calls for doing this instead of sourcing washing soda or whatever, esp. where direct ingestion is to follow, like with GBL ->NaGHB.


I think another reason this was preferable was because there is a visual indication of the reaction finishing, because CO2 stops bubbling out.  It takes about an hour, was it?  Maybe a half hour.
This method, on the other hand can cause worry, cause even though CO2 must and will be released by the reaction, there is no liquid medium for the gas to bubble through, so it's invisible.

This was why I did some experimenting by calculating the molar weight.
In reality I didn't discover how immediate this was, it was heated for an hour initially, etc. etc. But looking closely I started noticing that little subtle hints of a reaction where happening for only a few minutes after turning the heat on, and then nothing more.  I discovered a new subtle hint yesterday:

The reaction does produce H2O, so once you turn the flame on, if you take a spoon and stir the NaHCO3 around a bit, youll notice it clumps for a few moments, and then with a bit of heating becomes dust-like grainy.  If you do this you can actually see the CO2 escaping,. it looks like little comets of powder shooting up, and then disappearing, pretty cool actually.

This could ofcourse be done on borosilicate glass as well, it'll just take a bit longer.

I do it for about 5 minutes now, yet I still suspect that I'm heating for maybe 5 or 10 times longer than necessary.