Author Topic: freebase crystallization  (Read 477 times)

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freebase crystallization
« on: March 19, 2010, 06:36:15 AM »
Disposable stirbar’s geezmiester based inspiration on improved freebase titration, azeotropic toluene water distillation and anhydrous crystal formation deliberation and optimization thread
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C(r)ooks instructions:
Add concentrated HCl to freebase with stirring until pH = or <3. Take your time. This gets hot. If pH paper or meter impaired just add until color changes and doesn’t change back then add a dash more.
Add at least 9x that volume of toluene.
Distill off toluene and water until the still head temp is that of pure toluene or just boil until the flask clears then remove from heat. Decant into another vessel to facilitate crystal removal if you want.
Filter beautiful crystals after cooling.

Big kid’s department:
This method really is as easy as it reads. The only thing to keep in mind is that you need a lot of toluene because first you need it to azeotropically distill off the water(80:20) and second you need a sufficient volume to keep your crystals swimming after formation so you can recover them with sufficient solvent to hold impurities. With gassing one can stop when needed to filter and/or add solvent. With this it all comes at once so you better have enough. If you make a puck it will trap what you don't want.
Even with more sensitive freebase, one could add dilute HCl till the proper pH or without equipment add dilute HCl to freebase until you only have one layer plus a dash more then distill from there, possibly needing to sep funnel your distillate and add your toluene back to the pot to get all the water.
This can also be run under vacuum if lower temps are needed.
This whole tech could be run without a single thermometer, test strip or piece of glass if you were paying attention to visual clues. Disposable stirbar loves the lazy man's way, especially when it is the right way.
Unpleasant gassing rigs are now a thing of the past.

Someone take a swing at this and see. Super low effort home run every time.

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overunity33

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2010, 07:36:05 AM »
Thanks for the info, seems this salting out method has gotten popular of late.  haha "space reserved for my future prision contant info", this guy has a sense of humour.  I have heard of this method with a few variations: first, an equal volume of dry iso alcohol is added to freebase, then titrated to pH 6 with HCl.  The alcohol is distilled off and the goo is left to crystallize.  A variation involves adding enough dry acetone to cover the goo, upon mixing with a glass rod the acetone sucks the water and impurities out and crystals form spontaneously and are filtered.   

What made you decide on pH 3? Have you looked at toluene vs IPS, there is a very OTC source for pre-dried IPA in the US.  Are there any benefits to titrating the freebase before it is in a solvent?  Correct me if I am wrong but this method produces large crystals, instead of the snowflakes from gassing.  Aren't crystals hard to achieve because mdx is a racemic mixture?

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 01:56:13 PM »
This works because of the toluene(or benzene, but who uses benzene?) water azeotrope drys this without any hassle or prep. UTFGoogle for "Dean Stark Toluene" and check out how amazing it is.

Gassing rigs and the use of alcohols require precautions to be taken against moisture. Drying agents for the solvents involved, fiddly dangerous bits for anhydrous HCl generation and/or gas drying. This requires none of that. It drys itself. It tells you when it's done. It is super simple and hard to mess up. Pretty much the only issue is knowing that solvents and their vapor are flammable and that you shouldn't breathe tol, unless you are a gasoline huffer, then do whatever.

pH 3 is for c(r)ooks. It is also because boiling anhydrous toluene doesn't seem to hold HCl very well or with the solvent volumes involved it seems to be very tolerant. One ends up with beautiful crystals. People who have successfully made substituted amphetamine or methamphetamine should know how far to go for their flavor and don't need me making a list. 3 gets it done for (MD)A&(MD)MA.

Should you recrystallize? Of course you should, but if you aren't going to do it anyway it might as well start off cleaner.

Garbage in, garbage out is a rule with all of these things. Distilled freebase and solvents make everything nicer.

If one titrates base you are cooking down and end up with a concentrated mess of whatever you started with, usually requiring tricks, drying agents and difficult to recycle solvent mixtures to get to crystallize.

Did I mention solvent recycling? In these days of battling for every ingredient it is nice to be using toluene. It evaporates comparatively slowly so you filter it more then you evaporate it. Toluene once washed a time or two with dH2O and fractionally distilled is good as new as long as you didn't do something stupid like mixing solvents.

The only faults I find with toluene are that it floats on water and sometimes with heavier oils and large reaction mixtures you want a "bottom puller" and also that it has a higher BP so it isn't as quick or low temp to strip from work-ups if need be.

This azeotropic drying really is pimp shit. Know all that careful ketone or freebase drying before distillation to eliminate water bumping? Standard neutralizing wash, saturated salt wash, drying agent, distill? If you are using tol as your solvent and distilling it off before distilling your product it does the drying for you, greatly simplifying the procedure and eliminating mechanical losses.

Try it. You'll like it.

EDIT->I forgot to mention that I will be putting this over at WetDreams Reloaded. I wanted to get the questions answered before throwing it to the peanut gallery ;)

EDIT2->"Are there any benefits to titrating the freebase before it is in a solvent?" Yes, aqueous layers are where you read pH.

"Aren't crystals hard to achieve because mdx is a racemic mixture?" Hard to achieve with this tec or any of them with careful(dry) procedures? No. Hard to achieve big crystals? That depends on which salt you are making. This will not make shards from stuff that wont shard. If yours does form bigger crystals, then don't agitate/vibrate/torment it while cooling and enjoy the show.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 02:13:23 PM by disposable stirbar »

overunity33

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2010, 08:16:23 AM »
OK thanks for the answers.  Vogel states that xylene azetrope distillation works the same way.  In your opinion, does this method work just as well with xylene or is there something special about toluene/benzene?

Naf1

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2010, 09:02:28 AM »
You did see Quantum Dudes post regarding a similar technique?
http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,713.0.html

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2010, 10:35:10 PM »
overunity33 "is there something special about toluene/benzene?" Benzene and toluene are the standard dean-stark solvents for removing water. Does xylene work as well? I don't know. If the vapor carries water but the liquid wont hold it, you have another winner.

Naf1, nope, I had not seen that. For a second I thought, "Crap, of course someone has written about this before and done a better job of it." That tec and most of them have that Achilles' heel, dry something or other. This really is nice to have your solvent be your drying agent and have visual clues for its progress. It really is so simple. No worries!

I warn you all again, use a lot of toluene. When you gas you can stop and filter. Here you can't.

It is hell-a beautiful to watch. Watching the gassing snow always gave me wood. With this you can watch it and relax because the work is done and it isn't spewing HCl. You can see it better, too. Perhaps a "seasons greetings" video of a snowing beaker could be produced ;)

akcom

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 04:18:50 AM »
Wow, this is really easy.  Great write up disposable!

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 02:46:20 AM »
D. Stirbar, this is a nice procedure, and doing away with the gassing rig at first seemed like a worthwhile goal, but except for that in itself I honestly don't see what is achieved. You pick up the pre-cleaned freebase in toluene, boil off the water/toluene azeotrope and filter the formed crystals. Depending upon how dry your toluene is to begin with you may need more or less in the process.

The only thing I can see that you gain over gassing is that you don't have to gas. The disadvantage is that when you transfer freebase via water--even if it's just a little water, as it would be using hydrochloric acid--you're going to pull some contaminents along with your product. If done carefully most of that will stay in the toluene, but not all. The end result is a product that's not as clean as it would be if water wasn't in the mix.

A better method that's faster and easier is to steam distill the based post reaction mix, (this requires no pre-cleaning), catch the freebase in xylene, then decant the xylene from the small amount of water that comes over and gas out the salt. This reduces the need for solvents and produces a cleaner product. Xylene holds almost no water at all, but if you boil it afterward you'll still find a bit more product.

If you generate HCl with calcium chloride and muriatic acid, and clean your gas generator between uses, the gas will be nice and dry. With a little care the process is not messy or dangerous, and you get a better product.

PP
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geezmeister

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 08:33:10 PM »
The pants do not make you look fat.

Xylene can be swapped for Tolulene in this application. Pick your smell.  ;D

The sudden appearance of the crystals in the solvent when the moisture is almost all gone is amazing. Continue distilling a little after the appearance of the crystals if you don't have the thermometer in your still head to assure you have all the moisture out of the solvent. The crystals will crash out before total dryness, but not that far from it.


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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2010, 03:45:36 AM »
Depending upon how dry your toluene is to begin with you may need more or less in the process.

First, when you add HCl to freebase, you end up with an aqueous layer, salt in water. Toluene(and benzene and xylene) are PFM! They do not hold any appreciable amount of water but carry a bunch in vapor. So when you first toss toluene into your RB with the salt/water, you get 2 layers, a lot of tol and a little aq on the bottom. Put the heat to it, distill and make the magic happen!

Instead of exploding into being, when done under a lot of tol, the flask will go totally clear and you will note the stillhead temp of pure tol coming over, no more azeotrope, no more water. Quickly yank off the mantle, paper towel the grease out of a joint and pour into a beaker and watch snow. You thought gassing was sexy? You ain't seen nothin'!

Seriously, just try it. If you want to steam distill first, great. Cleaner the better. SWIM distills, resolves isomers, then does this. You want to carefully add HCl, that's great too.

This ends up DRY. Real dry. And in solvent. Had you gassed the same base, I would be willing to bet it would be wetter and I can assure you it would be no cleaner.

Now, if you put your time into this and do it right, and don't grossly over acidify, your product will be shockingly beautiful right away. It will however reek of toluene which takes forever and a day to get rid of, unless you do a dry acetone wash.

I swear to you all that I am not posting to fuck you up. This tech rocks, its easy as it reads, and it is safe.

I used to gas. I loved the prep and the rig and the bubbling crystals into being. Now I just like fail safe lots of dope without a bunch of fucking about with dangerous sketchy shit.

geezmeister, I'm glad you saw this. I was inspired by some of your writings so I thought I should give credit where credit was due. That, and the title made me laugh when I thought of it and having no one to tell these things, I thought I should put it there.

So split a batch, gas one part and do this to the other, then tell me I'm an asshole. I bet you wont.

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2010, 04:56:19 AM »
I suggested this same thing a couple year ago over at WD. Yes its perfect. My suggestion was to gass then mist the Ether under heat until all your salt dissolves. Allow it to SLOWLY evaporate and it takes the H2O with it yeilding Glitter. Perfect freeform crystals.
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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2010, 06:03:13 PM »
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Ahahahahahaha. 

The only thing I don't like about this method is the insane amount of toluene/xylene required.  Then again, you sweethearts are all playing with sub-kilo batches ;)
Hahaha kidding! (or am I?)

If one had a dean stark, of a good size, that would negate the large amount of solvent required.  But would also take more paying attention to (unless you don't care about wasting time).  Certainly wouldn't be too hard to make a dean stark out of assorted glass pieces.  Anyone have three or four distillation adapters of both upwards and downward angles? hahahaha

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2010, 03:34:25 AM »
"I swear to you all that I am not posting to fuck you up. "

I never had the idea that you were. I'm was just interested in having the discussion since your understanding doesn't agree completely with mine and I'd like to understand why. That's not at all to say that I don't believe you.

"Toluene(and benzene and xylene) are PFM! They do not hold any appreciable amount of water but carry a bunch in vapor."

It's been my understanding that toluene forms an azeotrope with water at some substantial percentage (10-20%?), where xylene forms one of only about 1%. However, I've seen MA boil out of xylene in amounts that seem too great to have been held by that little bit of water. I've never had a good explanation for that, but the idea of a solvent immiscible with water holding a significant amount in vapor is a new one on me. Or is that what's sometimes referred to as entrained water?

The procedure I'm familiar with is to steam distill the based post reaction mix into xylene, then use gas generated with CaCl and HCl, which I recognize is not as dry as might be desirable, then boil away the water/xylene azeotrope to claim the residual. It's probably not a fair comparison, but what comes out of the xylene is never as clean as what comes directly from gassing.

The technique sounds interesting, I admit. Would there be any reason that you couldn't add xylene before adding the acid? Since MA FB is rather volatile I'm thinking that to avoid losses it would be better not to handle it in the pure form. In the sub-tonnage ranges I'm thinking about, (significantly sub-kilo as well), I'd rather not put a drop of it on PH paper!

The need to separate isomers is yet only a dream.

Cheers,
PP
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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 07:20:31 AM »

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 03:53:12 PM »
then boil away the water/xylene azeotrope to claim the residual.

No where do I say anything about going to dryness like that. I meant the solvent gets dry, as in no more water, not dry as in no more liquid. If a sufficient quantity of xylene was used to completely dry the salt and still have a little extra so you don't make a solid puck, then the crystals, salt in xylene, should be similar to gassing, the only difference being that the azeotroped ones should be more dry which should lead to an exclusion of some impurities, giving you cleaner dope.

This being an optimization thread and everything being a work in progress, I am continuing my reduction in required acid. The product comes out beautiful.

To take the pH of your base in xylene would be a real PITA. I have done it(with toluene) and it works, but you must dropper a bit from the bottom aq. layer. I tried turbo stirring in hopes that there would be enough microdropplets to effect a good test, but not so. That was the time I verified that one can just dump acid in wholesale and the thing will still work.

Is just dumping it in without testing pH the right or best way? No.

I am leaning toward the 6-5 range as being the guaranteed winner, even though the pH of aq MA salt is neutral to slightly acidic, the impurities present might mess with that. Perhaps the 7-6 is where you want to really be, but like hell if using 10,000 test strips and a million drops of HCl is fun. Get it close. MA is tough.

Dry acetone is almost required afterward because tol just doesn't want to go away and the smell sucks.

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2010, 05:24:03 AM »
"No where do I say anything about going to dryness like that."

Huh? Around here they usually just  dump the beaker out into a quart saucepan and cook off the xylene over a barbecue in the back yard. If you've got an old carburetor or something you want to degrease at the same time, you can just hang it over the pan and let it catch the fumes as they rise. If you hold the pan just right the MA will crystallize on one side and the grease will flow to the other. I swear, you can hardly taste it.

By water/xylene azeotrope, I meant only the combined portion. That is, boil the xylene until the temperature hits about 140C to be sure the water is gone. In practice you don't have to watch the temperature, just wait for crystals to start forming.

Also, I understood you to have said that you test the PH as you're adding the HCl, but did not have the impression you were trying to test it in solution with toluene. (The turbo stirring must have formed a nice emulsion.)

Enkindu, thanks for the reference. In fact I've had that chart for several years, but never understood the entry for xylene. They seem to be saying that the composition of the xylene/water azeotrope is 40% by weight water and 60% xylene, which is way off. I don't understand the further reference to an upper and lower layer, which they give as 0.05% and 99.95%. The boiling point of 94.5C that they cite sounds about right, but two parts water is not going to mix with three parts of xylene. Am I missing something?

PP
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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2010, 05:33:16 AM »
PP, those 'upper layer' / 'lower layer' designations relate to relate to the organic phase and the aqueous phase after the azeotropic distillate has separated. Xylene is a good solvent for getting rid of water; that's why all those patents use it to break the ethanol/water azeotrope.

And my handle is Enkidu - get it right  ;D

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2010, 06:16:52 AM »
Enkidu, the correct spelling of your screen name lends a very different spin to your online personality. (Sorry for the careless reading.)

Thanks for clearing up the upper/lower layer mystery for me.

Xylene is used for breaking the ethanol/water azeotrope? This is completely new to me, and it goes against most of what I thought I knew about xylene. Among at least some garage chemists it's been known for years for hardly holding any water at all. Looks as though it's time for me to hit the books on the subject.

PP
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sassa

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 04:49:50 PM »
2 silly question...
-to make the distillation of the toulene ,we need to add a stirbar to the flask,boiling stones,...or better without anything and let the toulene and water comes slowly?
-we have to see the crystalls formed on the flask ,or we have to transfer the toluene to a beaker when the soultion it´s clear and we are sure that water it´s all out (reading the still head temperature),and then  wait for crystal growing by slow cooling?
     

« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 04:54:32 PM by sassa »

jon

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Re: freebase crystallization
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2010, 06:45:35 PM »
this whole mess of reading a ph value in alcohol is horseshit you can't obtain ph values in anything but an aqueous solution.

a chemist would obtain accurate weight then use stoichiometric calculation with a stock solution of acid, then titrate the base with acid.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:48:51 PM by jon »