Author Topic: Acetic Acid.  (Read 368 times)

Vesp

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Acetic Acid.
« on: March 08, 2009, 06:24:49 PM »
   Concentrated solutions of acetic acid are often sold in chemical supply and photography supply stores. However sometimes it can be rather expensive, hard to get, or in inconvenient quantities.  By far the most popular place to get acetic acid is from vinegar. Unfortunately it is only around 5% and has limited use. Vinegar however can be turned into glacial acetic acid with a little bit of work, and a few other readily available chemicals.
   First thing you will want to do is neutralize the vinegar with baking soda or some other base such as carbonate or a hydroxide. This will produce a sodium acetate. Boil the water away until the sodium acetate is dry. Careful not to forget about it because the sodium acetate will burn, or begin pop all over when it begins to dehydrate.
   Once you have dry sodium acetate you will want to react that with an acid. Generally acids stronger then acetic acid will work so this includes hydrochloric acid, phosphoric acid, sulfuric acid and sodium bisulfate. If you want a nearly pure and dry acetic acid you will have to start out with an acid that is also concentrated . I recommend using either sulfuric acid or sodium bisulfate. Sulfuric acid being the better of the two to use.
   Adding one mole of sodium acetate to one moles of sulfuric acid will yield and sodium bisulfate and acetic acid upon distillation. Adding two moles of  sodium acetate and one mole of sulfuric acid will yield sodium sulfate and acetic acid upon distillation. I have had the best yield of acetic acid using  the mole to mole reaction.
CH3COONa  + H2SO4 = NaHSO4 + CH3COOH
2CH3COONa + H2SO4 = Na2SO4 + 2 CH3COOH

(the bottom  reaction is actually: 2CH3COONa + H2SO4 = NaHSO4 + CH3COONa + CH3COOH and then the NaHSO4 reacts with the remaining CH3COONa to form more CH3COOH)

   Alternatively if you feel sulfuric acid has better uses, or if you don’t have any, you can mix dry sodium bisulfate and sodium acetate and heat it until acetic acid begins to come off. the vapors  are of course collected by distillation. This is a lower yielding reaction, and also the last half of the 2:1 reaction mentioned above.

CH3COONa + NaHSO4 = Na2SO4 + CH3COOH

If you do not need glacial acetic acid, you can mix hydrochloric acid or a solution of sodium bisulfate with sodium acetate and distill until dry. The concentration of the first acid will determine the concentration of the acetic acid distilled. Acetic acid produced from hydrochloric acid may contaminated with hydrochloric acid if you added an excess of hydrochloric acid. In order to prevent this contamination have a slight excess of sodium acetate when you begin to distill.

CH3COONa + HCl = NaCl + CH3COOH
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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 07:35:49 PM »
Now to work your GAA into AA. I am sure distillation from H2SO4 or using a phosphorous oxide to dehydrate will leave a acetic anhydride good enough for RDX E process or for making morphine into heroin.

Vesp

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 10:00:59 PM »
Sulfuric acid doesn't work for that, but I think another reaction happens. I know you can make acetic anhydride from a sulfur chloride and anhydrous sodium acetate or with bromine, sulfur and sodium acetate.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 05:02:27 PM »
nice writeup vesp!

1L of 99% acetic acid = ~$32.00 USD

I wonder how much you can produce for the same cost using your sodium acetate method?

I usually buy my own but hell, if this is cheaper, which I think it is, then I'm all for it. I get burned hard on hazmat charges.  >:(

Vesp

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 09:42:02 PM »
I don't know, you'd have to include the hazmat charges. Also how much money is spent in boiling away the water from the sodium acetate. You'd have to consider a lot of things to determine if it were cheaper. I guess if you only need a little bit this way is probably better, but if you often use decent quantities of it, you'd probably be better off with just buying it.

I've seen it for a lot cheaper then what you've posted - I think a gallon for 25-30 bucks. Not to sure how pure it is though, but they claim it is glacial acetic acid.
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Sedit

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 01:17:51 AM »
nice writeup vesp!

1L of 99% acetic acid = ~$32.00 USD

I wonder how much you can produce for the same cost using your sodium acetate method?

I usually buy my own but hell, if this is cheaper, which I think it is, then I'm all for it. I get burned hard on hazmat charges.  >:(

Organikam over at SciMad came up with a rough figure after energy cost ect... to equal about 48$ a liter. Buying your sodium acetate would not only lead to a better product but save some money on energy also.

Iv performed this reaction many time and am on the verge of performing it again to get some lead(IV)acetate. All I can say about it is... its a bitch, its time consuming to the point of annoying. If two much bicarbonate is used to neutralize then it will foam up as it did to me last time spraying GAA and sulfuric acid in my face.

Also getting the sodium acetate to dryness is no easy task either and even after you have crystals which are the tetra?tri? hydrate in order to get GAA you need to grind them and dry them even more. Hence the reason you spoke of the crystals popping, its the H2O being released. Dry them and wash them with acetone else you GAA will be contaminated with trace organics which can be seen clearly if H2O2 is added to it.
But if OTC is whats needed then this is the way to do it.

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Vesp

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 01:21:59 AM »
Quote
If two much bicarbonate is used to neutralize then it will foam up as it did to me last time spraying GAA and sulfuric acid in my face.

why were you adding bicarb to a mix of GAA and sulfuric acid?
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Sedit

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 06:50:46 PM »
I Didn't.
The Bicarb gets left over if you added to much when neutralizing vinegar. After drying the NaOAc compleatly and grinding it up in a blender it was put into a flask and H2SO4 was added but it foamed up so much that the sulfuric just sat on top. So i decided to stir the mixture with a rod and it quickly squeezed past the stirring rod and made a few splashed that got on my face and hands.  Retrospect patiants would have been a hell of a good thing here but the foaming can still be a problem.

My face wasnt the worst part because I quickly ran to wash it off and only had a slight redding of the skin and the top layer pealed. But in the process of washing it off my face the shit on my hands sat there a little longer and I got a few small but nice chemical burns from it.

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poisoninthestain

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 07:20:46 PM »
H2SO4 burns are pretty intense. I had a brush with a squirt once and sprinted to the bathroom to wash it off with soap. I was fine since I had water and soap on it in less than 10 seconds but it was 97% con. and within 2 seconds after it hit me, I was already feeling the burn.

Not fun.


Vesp

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 11:32:49 PM »
I've been burnt from sulfuric acid (very concentrated) a few times.. I didn't notice until my skin had swollen and looked nasty. Gotta love those scars on my hand!

When I've made sodium acetate I always boil it away and then add just a bit more vinegar to make sure no carbonate is left. I can't ever seem to neutralize it properly if I don't do it that way.
I almost suspect some of it decomposes in the atmosphere when its in its hydrate form, but I don't know how it would go about doing that.

There is probably another way to make glacial acetic acid. I know if you mix sodium bisulfate with alcohol, sodium sulfate falls out, and either sulfuric acid is in the alcohol or ethyl hydrogen sulfate. Either way, if you took off that liquid and then added anhydrous sodium acetate. I bet you'd see sodium sulfate fall out, and then you'd have a mixture of acetic acid and alcohol - a totally stupid way to do it, but I guess if you need it concentrated and have no means of distillation maybe it is worth looking into more, as you could allow the alcohol to evaporate or boil away before the acetic acid did.
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Sedit

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2009, 05:59:56 AM »
There is quite a few other ways to produce it which have been discussed over at SciMad pretty well. The use of a Ketan lamp to produce Acetic anhydride from acetone seems like a great way at first glance but then you have to face the fact that a whole lotta bad things could happen from making it that way. Besides the dangers associated with ketane you have to face the reality that the whole shit may just blow up in your face if your not mistaken.

Ill take a NaAcO accident over a keten one any day of the week.

I could post some of the suggestions that I have found over there if it is desired but mind you they are untested by me so I cant vouch for them personaly.

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no1uno

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2009, 12:49:44 PM »
The commercial method of separating fermentation derived Acetic Acid from the solution (actually suspension), is to use liquid-liquid extraction with ethyl acetate (acetic acid being more soluble in the NP layer, it is partitioned and thus extracted).

Some water will come through as well, but ethyl acetate and water form a constant boiling azeotrope @ ~70-74C which should make it rather easy to dehydrate the resultant strong acetic acid solution to give Glacial Acetic Acid (touch wood).
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Vesp

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2009, 06:04:13 PM »
I've never heard about acetic acid being extracted with ethyl acetate, that is very interesting! I wonder how well it would work to extract it from the store vinegar? Have you ever done it? I bet temperature could play a big roll in the extraction.
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Sedit

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 05:38:01 PM »
Something that is bugging me the past few days as I try to make a liter or so of AcOH from sodium acetate is no matter what I do it is foaming way to much. Iv done this many time and never once had this problem. If the heat is increased enough to make it come over in the condenser it fills the flask with foam which makes its way to the condenser. This is the dryest I have ever made the reaction mix by using fused sodium acetate and super dry H2SO4 which may play a role in why its doing this. Normaly it has a fine foam bubbles at the start but that quickly goes away leaving a swirling mix ranging from yellow to black. Im going to add a few drops of simethicone to attempt to break surface tension.

Has anyone else seen this? Its almost as there is soap in my sulfuric acid or some shit.
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Douchermann

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 06:41:19 PM »
Yeah, could be the sulfuric acid, or maybe carbonates in the mix. 

When doing something like this, you should also factor time spent into this reaction.  Figure your time is worth $25/hr.  Even if you steal your neighbors power (or use solar power), and all your reagents are free, you're still out of the ballpark as far as saving money.  If you're tight on cash, that's one thing, but there are much better things you could be doing with your time than trying to produce liters of an acid.  Just some food for thought.

Sedit

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 07:07:06 PM »
LOL naa not really, My time is worth nothin anymore ;D

Its not carbonates Im sure of that. Thats the reason that the foaming normaly stops but this time its not and rising to the top. Normaly I just heat it very slow till no more foam but this is bubbles this time. I feel its either the sulfuric or the fact that I let it set over night which produces sodium sulfate crystals in the bottom and there acting as boiling stones forming to many little bubbles that can't break in time. Well I filtered them out and all give it a go again.
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Vesp

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 10:31:15 PM »
if it has to do with concentration since this is the driest you've ever run it, you could just add a little bit of water and hope that helps. Then further purify later if all else fails.
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Sedit

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 06:01:10 AM »
Fuck it I aint wasting my time on this shit when I have alot of fresh NaOAc to work with. I dont know what got into this shit or if the highly dehydrated reaction is whats causing it but I will never do it that way again. Started out looked good and an amount that should have been about 200ml got to about 40ml and started bailing out SO2. Could be the lack of water could be contamination but all I know is I aint fucking with it anymore. I could have double distilled it over fresh H2SO4 for all this to get the last bits of water out.
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2009, 06:12:36 PM »
Don't you have vinegar essence avaliable in grocery stores in US? Here we have it at considerable low cost, and high purity - a 70% solution, sold practically in any grocery
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 06:22:00 PM by zz-zhuchila »
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Sedit

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Re: Acetic Acid.
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2009, 08:02:12 PM »
Iv never seen it. But with that in mind im sure going to look. That sounds strong enough to be distilled over H2SO4 to remove the water.
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You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!