APAN tests.

[Mr Cool]

The trouble is, Chris, that when you constructively criticise someone it sounds more like you're saying "Shut up and listen to me because you're all wrong."
Try to be less aggressive in your replies, please.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Yeah, I'm suprised at the impression you guys get from me. And I am wondering what it is exactly. There must be something wrong with my presentation. I seem to be unable to make friends. Not in in real life, not in the virtual world. Sad. Must find out what it is.

[kingspaz]

i think maybe if you say 'perhaps try this...' or 'i think it may be an idea to try...' or 'can someone please test this with explosive with a metal plate...' etc
be polite and try not to order people about. its not the same fun with a metal plate. if someone want to blow up a tree with their new explosive its up to them. i think manners could improve the way you are perceived.

[DBSP]

Ok some good news at last. I finally got around to buying a digical camera so I went out and got some pics of my first 500g APAN charge.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/500g_APAN-hole1.JPG" target="_blank">This</a> is the hole from a few meters of distance, unfortunately I didn't succed in rotating it so you'll have to bend your heads.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/500g_APAN-hole2.JPG" target="_blank">And</a> a bit closer, the stick is exactly 1m long

The hole you see is much wider underneath the surface of the mud.

[mr.evil]

Nice pictures bud, Do you have media of the detonation?

What kind of digital cam do you have?, as i'm looking for a cheap digital cam(about 50$) wich can make good pictures..

(sorry for editing many times)

<small>[ May 23, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</small>

[DBSP]

Unforunately I didn't have anything to record the detonation with at the time I did it(several months ago). It would have been very nice though a 10m high water-mud jet and a roaringly deep boom.

I might just do it again and this time I'll get some pics and sound for you.

The cam costed 200$ and it's an Olympus C-1.

[xoo1246]

I couldn't help myself. I rotated the pic. Glad you finally got yourself a digital camera!

[DBSP]

Thanks Xoo:) it gets a bit easier turned upright, hell I allmost broke my neck trying to look at it before :p I tried using ACDC but it didn't work what program did you use?

[xoo1246]

I used psp(paint shop pro), works well for most situation I get into.

[00Buckshot]

Wow, that pretty big. Fucking hardcore man.

What was the ratio of AP:AN if you remember?
And when someone sets a big sucker like that off (which I have not) do you use ear plugs or something?

[CyclonitePyro]

I don't wear any ear protection, I don't think, unless you are blasting everyday or the over-pressure where you are standing gets over 1 psi the normal pressure, that any ear damage will occur.
DBSP, nice pics, are you sure it was a full detonation?, I dreamed of a charge of ANNM with 500g of AN, and the crater was much bigger, I know ANNM is more powerful than APAN and you have grass in that mud to make the ground stronger. Maybe you didn't bury it far? The ANNM i talk of is in the topic "ANNM/AL + Story."

[Mick]

i don't think that was a full detonation, because its so muddy there the creater should have been alot bigger then that.
altho, you mentioned that you did it a while ago, so the majority of it has probably filled in.

the 300g charge i did in dry, tree root infested ground was much bigger then that.

and judging by the 500g charge i did underwater, the creater would be atleast 2m or more in diameter

[DBSP]

You are both wright and wrong guys. It was a complete detonation(10% AP and a 50g AP det,it was my first one) and the crater is about 2m wide underneath the surface. The grass is very srong at the surface and the hole was filled with mud just after detonation since most of what got up got right back into the hole. The charge was placed at the bottom about 135cm deep (it has been something of a lake there some time ago) where I couldn't dig deeper because of rocks after detonation the hole was 165cm deep, lots of stones where moved by the blast. I allways use ear protection when blasting asuming I'm close enaugh, otherwise I do not use protection. Underwater blasts and similar.

[S. Toppholzer]

I guess this question does't warrant a new thread so I'll post it here. As far as I understood, APAN and HMTDAN have pretty similar propertes. No I've heard a couple of times that AN may contain acids - especially if it's not really dry. Anotherthing I learned is that HMTD is sensitive when it comesdow to acids.
How sesitive is HMTD regarding acids? Could badly dried AN cause HMTD to detonate because of acidity if HMTDAN is stored for, say a week or two?

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

I'm expecting to have forumites begin to forever disappear in the near future...

[DBSP]

With HMTDAN there might be a slight(possible) danger but in short term storage it shuld be OK but I wouldn't store it for extended periods of time.

[kingspaz]

S. Toppholzer, the acidity in AN is due to this reaction:
NH4+ <=> NH3 + H+
the ammonium ion can donate H+.
acidity is caused by the presence of H+ ion.
eg,
H2SO4
HCl
HNO3
all acids contain hydrogen which can separate to H+ and whatever is left(the conjugate base i think its called).
so HNO3 would turn to H+ and NO3-...thats putting it simply but it helps to know not that AN is slightly acidic but WHY it is.
the why's allow you to make predictions about other molecules and substances...

[photonic]

I would like to make some APAN, but I'm not sure if the quality i have of the two ingredients is acceptable. I left the ap to crystallize for an extended period of time and when filtered the crystals resemble sand, what happened? I haven't tried washing them yet. Also, when purifying AN from fertilizer grade AN, is it possible to cook it for a short period of time(like 15 minutees) at a temperature just below it's melting point rather than at 70C for a few hours? My mother would be really pissed if she found a lb of an in her oven.

[Mick]

i can not see what the problem is with your AP, my AP is like sand, and always has been.
however you should never leave your AP unwashed. you should wash it when you filter it. leaving it sitting in its acid is not a good thing.

i don't think drying your AN at a high temp for a short period is a good move, it would be much easier and much SAFER to do it at 70c for a couple of hours. i think your mother would much rather come home to a lb of AN in the oven, then come home to no oven.
also if you using fertilizer grade AN(which i do) you should be able to grind it up and store in a completely air tight container until you are ready to use it. reason being is fert grade AN is coated with an anti-absorbent coating so it will not amongst other other things absorb moisture, so providing you grind it and put it straight into a sealed container it should be fine so you shouldn't have to worry about drying it.(note, you shouldn't store ground up AN for any longer then a day or 2, and that goes for pretty much any explosive. because if you get caught doing something and you house is searched then the stored explosive will be found and you will no doubt be plunged deeper into shit creek. so it is a good rule of thumb to only make what you need in the immediate future)

[john doe]

If one mixes AN with AP the explosive he is you one can low sensitive that AP oubien it is also sensitive?? Is what it is more powerful than the AP alone??

thank you John Doe
hackkker@respublica.fr

IM SORRY
for english I speek french

[Mick]

i not quite sure what your saying...

i think you mean, - if you mix AP and AN will the mix be as sensitive as AP alone? - yes it is as sensitive to shock as AP, and its a little bit harder to detonator(but not that hard)
and
will the mix be as powerful as AP alone? it is more powerful the AP alone

[endotherm]

< Successfully detonated 40 grams of APAN with a 1 gram AP detonator

[Madog555]

Awsome. my first HE detonation was ~40g of ANAP. it was awsome

that was a long time ago. i had read about this mix in an old thread.

<small>[ May 29, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]</small>

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I dont think that ANAP pressed to its max density would be as powerfull as AP. AP's VoD is 5300 m/s @ 1.18 g/cc

There arent many AN explosives containing 90% AN that have VoD's near 5300 m/s.

AN with 15% nitroglycerin has VoD aroud 3300-3500 m/s. And thats nitroglycerin, not AP.

[endotherm]

Is APAN better pressed or loose inside the container?

[DBSP]

That depends. If you want to use a very small det don't press it, if you are willing to add a gram or to press it all you can to get max power out of it.

[Madog555]

ALEN, does VOD mean power, NO

Velocity Of Detonation is how fast the shockwave travels not the power.

for example. Rack-A-Rock and other chlorate explosives are quite powerful but have a low VOD. Ethly nitrate is not very powerful but has a high VOD.

[PYREX]

I just blew up my first secondary HE!!! It was a filmcanister (30g@0.8g/cm3) of 10% APAN. The det was .4g AP in a drinking pipe. The power was below my expectations, but still quite impressive! I have buried it 15cm deep in rocky ground. On top I laid a 2mm steel plate 30x30cm. There wasn't much of a pressurewave, also the report could have been louder...

The crater was 20cm deep and 30cm in diameter. The plate flew 3m away and is heavily bent!

I think 30g plain AP would be stronger but concerning that my AN is only 90% pure (the rest is some inorganic fertilizing bullshit) I'd conclude this test as a success.

The next charge will also contain some Al-bronze. 85%AN,10%AP,5%Al I think. Should be a bit more powerful.

[DBSP]

You can't expect much at that density, I've achived 1,3g/cc without problems. And you could definately get more than 30g into a filmcanister.

[xoo1246]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The next charge will also contain some Al-bronze. 85%AN,10%AP,5%Al I think</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Suicidal, you might harm(/kill) yourself if you try this one. Bronze and Al will decompose AP and it might heat up and detonate. Also bronze can react with AN to form dangerous products. Somone more skilled in chemistry(the AN and copper) please explain it to him.

[kingspaz]

present on all copper and all metals is a layer of oxide formed from contact with the air.
2CuO + 4NH4NO3 ----> Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2 + Cu(NO3)2 + H2O
i think thats how it goes...see the TACN thread for more information. not sure exactly how sensitive the mix would be but i wouldn't do it. in copper explosive containers ammonium nitrate isn't allowd into contact with the copper for exactly this reason.

[PYREX]

Yeah, thank you guys. I didnt think of the copper in AlBronze. And DBSP, the reason why I only took 0.8g/cm3 was because I wanted to try if it can be detonated with a small (0.4g) detonator. Btw, IIRC the power of ANFO drops above 1.15g/cm3 because of incomplete detonation. May this also be true for ANAP? My feeling tells me no because the AP will support the shockwave even in very high densities, but it's worth a try anyways...

However, the next one will contain 5% Zinc dust if I dont find a source for Al powder til then.

[Mr Cool]

AN can also react with ZnO:
ZnO + 2 NH4NO3 --> [Zn(NH3)2](NO3)2 + H2O
But that isn't a problem. Just thought you might be interested to know. Diaminezinc (II) nitrate is often used in concentrations of a few % as a phase stabiliser in AN composite rocket fuels, to prevent cracking during temperature cycles.

[DBSP]

Pyrex, I'm sorry if it sounded bad. I wasn't "flaming" you, I was only pointing that out. And as you say since AP will still detonate even at higher densitys I doubt that APAN can become dead pressed, (within reasonable limits).

[PYREX]

NONONO! Don't get me wrong, DBSP. I haven't seen this as a flame. I'd probably have asked the same question in your situation. As I said, I also don't think that APAN can be dead-pressed (supposing you don't use a 20-ton-press).

[Microtek]

Does anyone know how much AN heats up when reacting with copper?
If it isn't more than a few degrees then considering the apparant ineffectiveness of TACN and the fact that you are already mixing the AN with AP, I don't think the risk is apreciably increased.

[kingspaz]

its not really the heat of the two reacting but the TACN formed. i found TACN to be very insensitive as i couldn't set it off even when put of fire!
but i know this was only because it was hydrated. if TACN formed without the presence of water, say in a sealed copper tube, then the TACN formed would be dehydrated and MUCH more sensitive. it is a primary explosive so is sensitive to friction. philou had no trouble detonating dehyrdated TACN therefore i would say that the risk is increased a fair bit. although i think if its not stored for more than a couple of days it should be ok.

[Kettch42mk.2]

Just set off my first HE charges. The first one was 30g of APAN (10% AP) pressed into a latex glove finger, detonated with 1.5g AP wrapped in aluminum foil. It was detonated above ground, in the open , and made a crater approx. 6" deep and 19" in diameter.

The second charge was also 30g, 3g 400 mesh Al powder, 3g AP, and 24g AN, and was also detonated with 1.5g AP in foil. This charge was considerably louder than the first, and made a crater approx. 9" deep and 24" in diameter. I need to get some more Al powder, because it seems to considerably increase the power of this explosive.

[PYREX]

6x19" crater from 30g ANAP??? What kind of soil was it? Can you make some photos?

[mr.evil]

there's nothing strange about the size of that crater, i've setted off an 40grams AP charge in soft ground(sand, like on a beach) and it produced a BIG crater(about 40-50cm acros) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

But if the charge was setted of in hard ground(with grass) i think i don't believe it :rolleyes:

[PYREX]

It's so frustrating! I just came back from my blasting site. I've mixed 55g of AlAPAN containing 10%AP, 10%Al-bronze, 80%AN. It was in a plastic tube with an inner diameter of 3cm. I pressed it by hand to a maximum density of 1g/ccm. The cap was 1g AP.
The blast was about as strong as the total amount of AP in the charge :( . I don't know if any of the AN detonated at all, I will have to make a comparison charge with the AN+Al replaced by sugar or so.
Maybe my AN got wet since I've opened the jar quite often in the last few days...

[DBSP]

My guess is that your cap was too small. When pressing and exceeding densitys of more than about 1g/cc I think you shuld add at least 2g to your det.

I don't think that your AN got to wet, it has to be very moisty if an APAN charge would fail due to moisture.

[xoo1246]

Hmm, so you used bronze anyway?

[PYREX]

Yeah, I just simply thought "scheiss drauf" (could someone translate this please) because I had some remainings of my ANAl experiment some months ago. I blew it with a heavy hammer as hard as I could - nothing. The bronze is coated with some wax, it smokes and stinks thelike when heated. Also, the copper being alloyed with Al and Sn shouldn't be that reactive.

[kingspaz]

pyrex, it'll still react just the same but less will be exposed to the AN. the risk is still there but if you don't store it it should be fine. also try removing the wax off the bronze with petrol or somthing.

[ThaFreak]

What function should the wax have?
Maybe a protection layer or something.
Any type of cu I have aint waxed.

Cya,

[Mr Cool]

Did you say the metal powder was for paint? In that case the wax will be to stop it from corroding I reckon. Without it, it might start off as a nice bronze colour and then slowly turn green or something.
I say leave the coating on, it shouldn't make too much difference if you use it in HE's, and it will make it a bit safer.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Definately keep the wax coating on. The wax would serve as a fuel AND as a protective coating.

Personally i wouldnt bother with the paint. I wouldnt add chemicals to my explosives that may react dangerously. I'm sure there isnt much of a risk but i'd rather be safe than sorry.

[xoo1246]

Bronze and Ap IS dangerous.

[PYREX]

I suppose you mean bronze and AN is dangerous. I once used a bronze mortar to powder my AN. The next day there was a green substance all over the mortar. I collected it and heated the mysterious green powder on a sheet of Al-foil, it emitted some white smoke (like decomposing AN) and I was left with a black residue. Could it have been TACN?

However, this Al-bronze I've got is from a painter, he uses it to make silver paint. I'm only using it because it's the finest powder I've got looking somewhat like Al :rolleyes: . I once looked in a chemistry encyclopedia for Al-bronze and it was said to contain 20-30% Al, the bronze being there to stop the Al from oxidizing or something. Idea: I've got about 100g commercial (extracted from firecrackers) flash which doesn't work no more. Would water oxidize the Al poweder? Otherwise I could solve the oxidizers with water and filter the Al out.

[xoo1246]

Sorry, I was messed up in my head(tired) when I made that post. I thought of AP as of HTMD(decomposes in contact with metals).

[NERV]

I plan on testing some APAN soon I just have to go get some more H202. I am hoping to use about 50g. I will post my results with pics as soon as I can.

[NERV]

I made 10g of ANAP using the 10/90 ratio. I used a 9mm glock round filled with AP to detonate it (I forgot to weigh the AP), but I did not get a complete detonation. Here are the pics.

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/blackdragon/ANAP.html" target="_blank">ANAP pics</a>

Dose anyone know what happened.

[Madog555]

upload the pics

h

<small>[ June 25, 2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]</small>

[NERV]

where should I upload them.

[DBSP]

Somewhere where we can view them the links are dead.

[Anthony]

Chris, we can't see pics on your HDD :)

Upload them to your angelfire account and link to them in the html document.

[NERV]

I feel stupid I never saw the thing that let me upload my pics anyway here they are.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/blackdragon/round.jpg" target="_blank">the round</a>
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/blackdragon/crater1.jpg" target="_blank">crater</a>
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/blackdragon/shell.jpg" target="_blank">destroyed film can</a>
you can still some of the undetonated ANAP in the crater.
(you may have to copy ansd paste the links)

<small>[ June 25, 2002, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: NERV ]</small>

[DBSP]

Something has gone wrong with that charge. Did you press the AP?
The filmcan cant have been even half full, I've gotten more than 30g of APAN into a filmcan 10g is nothing. Could you give me some more info about how it was pressed/ packed/ prepared/ did you fill the rest of the space in the can with something innert to keep the APAN in place?

[NERV]

The AP in the Det was pressed. I pressed it by hand with a piece of bamboo. I used toilet paper to fill the extra space in the film can. The det was placed in the center of the ANAP. I buried it about 1 foot under ground. I hope this helps.

[DBSP]

I have no idea but you might just have some troubles with the critical diameter, or it has become to wet which I find hard to belive. But it's hard to tell why it didn't work.

Try a larger charge, fill the can with lets say 3g0g and try it agin with the same det.

[spydamonkee]

i just purchased a "3m Instant Cold Pack" and i was wondering how do i confirm if the contents is NH4NO3?

i remember reading of a test some where but buggerred if i can find it now :(

now all i gotta do is get all the ingrediants i need to dream up some AP :D

i can get 99% sulphuric acid and was thinking to use that instead of HCL as that should give me a higer yield right? same with the H202 i can get really pure stuff so now i gotta work out how to adjust the mix : /

[Rat Bastard]

spydamonkee , from my experience H2S04 gives a *nice* yield (but I have never tried it with HCL :o ) My H2S04 reacted a little violently (it hissed each time I dropped it in), but if you keep the reaction under 10C you are okay. After only 1 hour I saw crystals, and the morning after the whole solution was crystals. More than I expected.

Be sure to it wash with bicarb and plenty of water.

[A_W]

spydamonkee- I don't know much about yields of the two acids, but I think it is pretty much the same since the acid is just a catalyst in the reaction.

However, I would reccomend that you use HCl instead of H2SO4. When your AP dries, the HCl (wich is a gas) will evaporate along with the water. H2SO4 is not a gas and will not evaporate unless you heat it (not very wise with AP!). When (most of) the acid has evaporated, it will be much easier to neutralize the AP.

About the ice-pack, it should say on the pack what its contents is. I've never heard about anything else than NH4NO3 being used in ice-packs. If the contents is white prills and a bag of water, chances are it i ammonium nitrate.

It could however be Calcium chloride, wich also reacts endothermic in contact with water.

[spydamonkee]

Cheers for the info bro ill stick with the HCL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , so that means my near pure H202 will gimmie a better yield.
I checked the pack like 5 mins after i purchased it to make sure but the only thing the pack says about its contents is:

"Suggested First Aid: If contents contacts skin or eyes, remove pack immediatly. Thoroughly flush with water. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting. Call a doctor or poison control center immediatly."

its just some posted in this thread that they got an ice pack with urea in it once <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[A_W]

Do you know the exact concentration of your H2O2? If it's a very high concentration (around 60%), no acid catalyst is needed at all. :D After a few minutes, AP should already start to form.

Urea, you say? Urea is not a very toxic or othervise dangerous chemical. On the ice-packs I have used (ammoniumnitrate), similar warnings as the ones you describe was printed on the pack, so I'm pretty sure you've got the right one.

[spydamonkee]

good to know i sohuld have the right stuff

ill find out the conc of my h202 when my source gives it to me :D
he said it was pure so weather thats like 60% pure or 100% pure i dunno atm
so i take making ap with a higher conc h202 is "safer" than using the acid catylist?, as will u still need to wash your ap since there is no acid involved? or just filter and let dry?

only thing would be is highly conc h202 would be very dangerous :D its used for stripping flesh off bone in freezing works i believe

[kingspaz]

this thread is about APAN not AP so if you have any questions don't start a new topic but read through the other expolsives section and ask the questions in a relevent topic allready open.

[Mick]

even tho this topic is about APAN i will save spydamonkee from making a new post(which will no doubt get him banned.)

using high conc H2O2 is not safer then using a lower conc H2O2.

i use 60% h2o2 and you still need to use a catalyst.
altho you can just add the h2o2 and then let the AP form from there, its pretty slow, heats up a remarkable ammount, and takes about 6 hours+ and you won't the same yeild as you would if you were to add 10ml of HCI.
the main problem i find with not using a catalyst, is the reaction heats up just as much as it would if you used a catalyst, however it heats up alot slower. which means an ice bath is not very effective(the life span of the heat is longer then that of the ice bath) which means you need to put it in the freezer to keep it constantly cooled, and when you do this the reaction slows down and takes forever to produce a reasonable ammount of AP.

the danger of using high conc H2O2(60%+) with a catalyst is the reaction is very fast, and therefore produces shitloads of heat very quickly. it is quite difficult to keep it cool.
a little bit of heat isn't all that dangerous(20 degrees max), the only downside is you will produce dimmer AP(less powerful, more sensitive..not much tho) anything above 20c becomes dangerous, you end up with something like a "runaway nitration". it gets very violent, and froths up(at which point, just put your reaction vesel in the toilet and flush)

the only way i have been able to use 60% is to add the acetone and H2O2, then put that in the freezer for 20mins to cool it down, then to put it in an ice bath and add the catalyst then pour more ice cold water into the bath over time. takes about an hour for the reaction to stop completly.
the cystal quaility of AP when using 60% h2o2 is quite poor, and you often get little hard lumps about the size of a pencil led throughout your AP.

the other downside with high conc H2O2 is it burns like a mother fucker(technical term) when you get it on your skin. so far the worse place i have gotten in is down the side of my finger nail. my finger nail basicly come right off in an hour. the other place is on the top of the foot.
(i would imagine there are many more painful places to get it. like the eyeball(argh!))

<small>[ July 14, 2002, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]</small>

[spydamonkee]

sorry king i got away abit there with the AP questions, just my AP is gonna be used to make and detonate my APAN and also this thread had the most posts about "Instant Cold Packs" :D

cheers for clearing that up Mick, ill stick with the lower conc h202 me thinks i like my fingers & nails to stay intact :p

when i "wake up" from my dream ill upload it as a vid for ya'll

[Anthony]

I've gotten urea cold packs before. It stated the contents on the pack and while NH4NO3 is white prills, the urea ones are more like clear plastic beads, more opaque than white.

To stop local overheating when using H2SO4 as a catalyst, dilute it to at least 50%, preferably 25-30%. Let the acid/water cool down before adding it as it does warm up a fair bit.

Same deal with the H2O2, dilute it to 30% and it'll make the reaction and handling a lot easier.

[DBSP]

Just thought I'd post the pic of a 140g APAN charge.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/140g_APAN_charge.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/140g_APAN_charge.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/APAN_smoke.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/APAN_smoke.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/result_of_140g_APAN.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/result_of_140g_APAN.JPG</a>

[NERV]

DBSP what did you put the APAN into it looks like big block of Ice? What did you use to detonate it?

[Einstein]

DBSP, is there some undetonated APAN in ground in the 3rd pic? I see there is some white particles, but they could be also from the casing right?

I don´t bother to do APAN, ´cause I don´t bother to do AP anymore and all the AN I´m handling goes to ANNM :D

[DBSP]

The white things on the ground it paper from the casing, I used the base of a wine bottle as casing and I detonated it with a few grams of HMTD. I normally use ANNM but I didn't have any purified AN around at the time so I made some APAN just to be able to skip the purification process of AN, I didn't want to waist any NM on low quality AN.

[Helos]

exactly what impurification did your AN had?
water? or was it n-28 (AN +dolomite earth)

[Helos]

I have to report something strange
A while ago I filled a halffull filmcanister of fresh AP.
I putted newspaper in the empty part of the container and placed it on a plate of iron that was standing out from the wall.
Then I took a powerful airrifle (5,5mm) and fired on shot.
It hitted- but the white powder didnt explode instead it (some) spread in the air! and the canister went away -peneterated.
Why didnt it explode, it usually explodes by a light blow of a hammer.

A fuse ignited it easy and it exploded...

it may have been a little wet, but only minimal.

The canister was loose, only a bit of bluthack connected it to the iton plate.

Iam still really confused...

[Anthony]

It's simple, AP isn't nitrogen triodide.

The pellet passed straight through with really impacting the AP. Had the film cansiter been stood against a metal plate, or a small metal plate stood inside the canister, it most likely would have detonated. Because the pellet would have compressed some of the AP between itself and the plate, like a hammer blow on an anvil.

[kingspaz]

also if it were shot with a hollow point round then the energy transfered would be maximum and therefore chances of initiation also at a maximum. also this thread's about APAN not AP.

[mark]

Im planning a large ANAP cracker. Im intending to burry the cracker, and was wondering how deap I should burry it in moist dirt to muffle the noise to a nice thump! and spray of dirt without having an ear shattering bang. About how deap should I burry it for a 10gram cracker? 20 gram? 30 gram? The last APAN cracker I burryed was dug to deap, so it wasnt very cool, so Id like this one to turn out better. Thanks for any help I can get.

[DBSP]

It depends on how wet the dirt is, but I'd say 30-50cm would turn a 30g charge quite quiet, theres really no way to tell, you'll just have to experiment.

If you dig a hole about 1,5m deep a 500g charge will just be a roaring thump, loud but far from hurting your ears.

[Mick]

dig a hole, detonate the APAN - if its too loud, dig deeper. pretty simple.
its a silly question, to many variables.

anyways...

APAN putty.
could you add AN to a AP Putty mix?
what do you suppose the outcome would be?.
I would imagine that the increase in density would reasult in a more powerful explosive(thats if its possible to detonate?) however it occured to me that i may end up with something that likes to remove limbs at random times.
then again, i might just end up with a solid lump of nothing.

anyone got any ideas?

[NERV]

I just did another ANAP charge. This one worked like a charm. I used 20/80 mix of AP and AN.
You can see the Pics here <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/blackdragon/ANAPtest2.html" target="_blank">ANAP test</a>

P.S. Mick that sounds like a good idea I might try it later on today.

[spydamonkee]

sorry to say but ANAP sounds poo compared to APAN, i know that most AN Explosives are Prefixed AN** ANFO,ANNM etc but i rekon APAN should be the name used for CTAP/AN or you could called it CaTAPAN as it uses both chemicals true names with an added vowel... sounds better too :D rolls off the tounge kinda :p

One of my pet hates in this hobby is when other people usually kewls or the ill-informed brainwashed sheeple call our devices 'bombs' i say their not bombs, i dont make bombs, they falll from planes stupid! :mad: :o :mad:

[simply RED]

CaTAPAN- sounds stupid...
Why not SATAN

[TheBear]

Hi everybody!

I would like to begin my post with thanking all the members and moderators for such a good forum wich I've been reading for a couple of months now. This is my first post:

I just wanted to report that damp APAN esily explodes from a half a gram TCAP (roughly estimated value, 1mm on the botton of a McDonalds straw which was filled with KNO3/Sugar mix to serve as a fuse). I am able to tell because my AN got damp when i mixed the TCAP with it in a "filmcanistermill"(I've got no word for it because I've made it myself from LEGO :D ) and small, wet, soft balls of APAN the mix was formed. I should also say that it wasn't 1:9 mix, it was actually 1:2 mix by volume (poor i know :-(), but still i don't doubt it was a full detonation. The Bang sounded lika much "darker" than the normal TCAP "crack" and I couldn't find any residuces of AN). It actually ripped up the bottom of a sink. The amount of explosive is hard to tell, I don't own a scale (but I will buy one, anyone know any cheap ones in Sweden?), but it were 7 film canisters which were all halffull and put in a metaljar (perfect size, they were all 100% fixed).

P.S I should also mention The AN I used wasnt pure, about 33% of KNO3 in it (from the fert. i reclaimed it from) but it should have any negative effect, should it?

[Helos]

Hello bear!

It is not strange that so a little TCAP detonated the whole thing, because you used a lot of TCAP and then your mixture are wery sensitive. In fact, if you mix AN/AP 1:1 it is even ignitable by ffuse... It is then also stronger than pure TCAP because of that the AN oxidizez many of the flamablegases that are produced when TCAP are detonated AND it also decomposes by itself.

Some months ago I experimented with TCAP/flashpowder. it is wery powerfull, for example I mixed 60%flash (Kno3/mg) and 40%TCAP.
It produces a WERY deep and loud sound compared to pure TCAP.
It also produces a little fireball and a lot of heat, and it is a good bi0t powerfuller than pure TCAP.
TCAP mixed with perclorate/ magnesium flash was even more powerfull (extreme sound, due to the extreme ammount of gases that are created, due to the extreme heat :D )
All this is ofcourse ignitable by fuse.

I think that you can gain the best explosive in this area out of this ingredients: TCAP, AN, Mg, (and optionally a good oxidizer, ex: Kclo4)
Then you get the full effect of the TCAP, which is bad in its pure form because of the low temperature when it detonates, and because of that it produces gases that is not allowed to fully decompose, and therefore it is underestimated :p The Mg will allow the heat to rise and the An will decompose by itself while the perclorate oxidizes gases and mg! This will be wery powerfull I think... When you thinks that pure TCAp has 70% of the power of TNT, this will shurely have, say 150%+ of that power.
I am also thinking if you maybe could make an safer variant: An high explosive using a blasting cap to detonate. Then it could be good to change the Mg to Al and to use some kind of (oil) or plastizier which will lower the density and make everything safer.
The experiments with TCAP and flash is dangerous beacause of that TCAP is sensitive and many flashpowders are also sensitive to static so it can be a dangeous problem. It is also important to wash the TCAP so no acid is left to react with the Mg.
Any comments?

[kingspaz]

when refering to acetone peroxide simply use the abbreviation 'AP'....none of the 'TCAP', 'CTAP' stuff. simply 'AP'. this avoids confusion.

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[PYRO500]

unless your referring to ammonium perchlorate :) .

[spydamonkee]

is not the true chemical name CycloTriAcetonePeroxide CTAP, i usually always refer to it as 'AP' though

well a for those who aint seen it you might not see it anyway as it was done @ night on top of a rubbish bin :D

Here it is &gt;<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spyDAmonkee/" target="_blank">APAN - Roadcone.mpg</a>

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]</small>

[binary mz]

APAN is crazy stuff. Lets just keep it at that. Paranoia is a good thing.

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: binary mz ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Yes, it is CTAP. TCAP is the wrong name. I think it stems from kewls repeating the name incorrectly over years of passing around "bomb recipes" before the days of the internet, and because of the influence of stuff like the journalist's name for CTAP: "tri acetone tri peroxide; TATP".

I still consider playing with mixes of one of the most sensitive primaries and the acidic when even remotely moist ammonium nitrate to be a suicidal prospect. Someday one of you is going to have an accident like Toppholzer's, except you'll be far more severely disfigured. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[TheBear]

Ok, I will refer it as "AP".
Pu239 Stuchtiger you're right, god damn I was stupid. AN is a salt of a strong acid and weak base, it's so obvious, i can't believe i didn't think of it... the thought of that I handeled acidic AP scares me... Thanks for pointing that out guys!

Helos: I would not like to be fooling around with any perchlorate/AP mixture especially not with AN in it! Isn't just a trace of acid enough to make the prechlorate extremly sensitive?

Next charge I'll make will be APAN (correct ratios and completely dry) or ANNM (with activated AN) and in either of the two cases I will use AP in some kind of blast cap with improvised fuse. I'm still waiting for my 25kg sack of KNO3 :D ... Im thinking of using 25% NM and put the charge into a plastic bottle. Do you think a filmcanister full of AP (not pressed, I don't want to press it) attached to the outside of the bottle will be enough to detonate it?

And again, thanks all of for the tips! I really do a appriciate it!

[trev]

a few days ago i detonated a 120 gremme charg of APAN with 10% AP

set electronically off underwater with model rocket igniters it sent water every were and made a mess of the bottem it was awsome because you could feel it

[DBSP]

if I got you wright you wonder if a film can with AP is enaugh to set APAN of? you only need a gram or two to fully detonate it. If you wan't to be shure 5g is more than enaugh.

[spydamonkee]

a film canister of AP is quite abit of AP going off all @ once, its about the biggest Pure AP Charge if have done @ once
take a look @ what i sounds and looks like URL=ftp://209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spyDAmonkee]here[/URL]
we were trying to detonate 800g of Coated AN (47-0-0-0 NPKS) but it failed due to the coating not letting the Deasiel soak into the AN thus sensitizing it enuff to detonate
sure fire way to tell if oyur AN charges have detonated?
look for the thick white smoke NOx

---------------------------------------------
can you please refrain from using '@' instead of 'at'....christ its only one extra key you have to press! - kingspaz

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[McGuyver]

Damn, a film canister full of AP is the biggest AP cracker you've ever set off! I've set off a 200-250 gram charge at one time, already.

I've never set off that amount of AN though, that is quite large. How big of a crater do you get from a 800 gram charge?

EDIT: If you've ever set off a 800 gram charge- I mean.

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]</small>

[Anthony]

Some would call 250gm AP crackers "suicide'o'matics"...

A word of warning on mixing peroxide primaries (especially HMTD) with metal powders: It is generally advised to avoid contact with metals, I can't imagine that intimitly mixing the peroxide with a metal power, especially in a potentially acidic environment is at all a good thing.

EDIT: On the subject of pronounciation of acronyms, how do people pronounce the mentioned "ANNM", or "PETN"?

Personally, it's something between "anum" and "anem" and "petin/peten".

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[EP]

I usually just spell them out when saying them, it really doesn't take that long to say "P-E-T-N" does it? :p

The only ones I say like words would be ANFO and APAN.

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

I don't understand why people speak those acronyms like words. When you read "AOL" do you think "aeol" or something like that? :) I just say the letters. "P-E-T-N", "A-N-N-M", etceteras. After all, they are acronyms, not words.

[Madog555]

250g AP!!! do u have a dath wish!?!?

i call PETN "petin" and i pronounce ANFO
the others i dont, well the ones i cna think of now

[spydamonkee]

well mcguyver your either 1.extremly stupid, 2.have big balls of steel, 3.or trust your explosives to much (see #1)
AP is a primary and not ment to be made in large batches because of its sensitivity so next time you make a 200g AP charge try not to trip up while your holding it :p
i was mearly testing weather Film can of AP could detonate coated ANFO
however ill be sticing to apan for my boosters from now on

[McGuyver]

It was more like 200 grams- if that. I was a little excited at the time. It was quite nice though, blew half a car battery apart, and imbedded it in the top of the fridge it was sitting in. Pretty sweet.

Anyway, back on topic. I never say the whole thing- just say the letters- much easier. Some people don't even know what your talking about when you pronounce the whole thing. Like, a lot of people have heard of ANFO but not ammonium nitrate.

[Anthony]

I prounce the individual letters of many acronyms i.e. RDX, AP, HMTD, but like ANFO some I just pronounce as a word. It's easier to say than "pee-e-tee-en" and typing it out, it looks too much like "preteen" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[NERV]

I pronounce most explosives by letter like RDX, HMTD, and HNIW. But any of the AN compositions I pronounce as words. I also pronounce PETN as a word.

[spydamonkee]

so please tell us how to pronounce ANNM then NERV...
is it Ann-Imm, Ann-Emm?

the are abrv. ment to be said as letters not a word
however i never say A-N-F-O i just say ANFO same with APAN
if they sound like word i say em like a word :D
PETN, RDX, HMTD would all be spelled out to their letters

but this is not the topic as this thread is about APAN
i have 150g 10% APAN Charge in a steel can waiting to be detonated... its just that its pissing down with rain :mad:
i was gonna sink it then set it off.
oh well look out for the vid <a href="ftp://209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spyDAmonkee" target="_blank">here</a>

*set off the 150g APAN charge... it fuckign floated in the pond grr dag nabbit, well i set it off & holy shit shiver me fuckign timbers was it loud, watch the clip <a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spyDAmonkee/" target="_blank">APAN 150g - Pond (+Slo Mo).mpg</a> then pretend that you were there and that it was twice as loud and thats how loud it was :D
it echoed for like 3 seconds or more and all the animals ducks n cows n turkeys for about 1km or so were all running around wondereing if the sky fallen on their heads lol

well next time i do one o em im gonna make sure the thing bloody sinks

i used a 38 special pistol bullet to hold about 1 grap of pressed AP with electrical ignition and the end of det was capped with 4 mil layer of blu-tack, thats all the confinement the ap needed.

oh and no the shockwave did not make the camera fall off its perch it was the fulla next to it shitting himself and in a hurry to pack up the wire onto the reel that the camera was sitting on, he felt a sudden urge to make him self scarce of that area... wonder why lol

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 05:19 AM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]</small>

[DBSP]

I've gad some problems with charges floating. If you have seen my 2 charges in "cap sensitive mixtures in KIFE" you know which ones I am talking about. Just as I was to press the swith I realised that my 570g ANFO charge was floating just beneath the surface. I had to weight it down with stones in order to make them sink, I had the same problem with my second charge. I can emagine the first one going off at the surface, that would have been very scary. It was loud as it was ca 2m below surface. I haven't had any probs with any APAN charges though.

[spydamonkee]

i have not yet detonated a ANFO charge above ground so i was wondering what the sound is like compared to APAN
is it as loud as APAN just deeper or is it way louder?

[Mick]

DBSP, i've had a 500g charge float to the surface.
its not as scary as you would think - i was pretty close to it as well - less then 15m(more like 10m if anything)

fucken loud, very deep "rolling" type thunder noise, you can acctually hear the boom moving away from you

gave me a very funny ringing noise in my ears for the rest of the day. normaly if your to close to AP when it goes off you end up with a high pitched ring, well the ring i got was like a constant hum *mmmmmmmmmmmmm*.

[FarbrorBosse]

Nice clips , always nice to see some videos, not just talk, wish I had a camera cause I'll dream about setting off 650g PETN next weekend (underwater). I Should have done it this weekend if I would have bought the right silicone for my fuse, now I got the white stuff that do not work for underwater use. :(

Back to subject...

Spydamonkee, your 150g APAN floating pond charge looks more like a detonation of ~20g AP to me.

When detonating a 150g APAN charge completely you get more then just a little poof. Detonate 75g AP + 75g AN, 50/50 APAN at that distance and you know what I mean. (Easier to get a complete detonation if you use more AP, though it is much more sensitive that way.

If you watch the movie closely, is it possible there are more then just water particles in that cloud of smoke, undetonated AN powder maybe?

[edit]: Yi has a good page where you can see a complete detonation of 90g APAN:
<a href="http://incoherent.topcities.com/Explosions/Pictures/an.htm" target="_blank">http://incoherent.topcities.com/Explosions/Pictures/an.htm</a>

<small>[ September 01, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]</small>

[Anthony]

Why waste such a large amount of a wonderful explosve underwater?! Surely it'd be much more fun experiencing the brisance of PETN against a solid target?

[spydamonkee]

well farb i would love to see your magical 20g AP make as much noise as my 150g APAN charge did
also my mixes are 90:10 not 50:50
and also the AN i use is no where near completly pure i just grind it up as it is out of the fertiliser bag so if there was any remaining products that had not been detonated it must have been the coatings and additives.
also the camera was about 30 meters away and uphill so the angle and distance would give you the wrong idea on how big it was
next time ill place the charge in the ground.

[Microtek]

Farbror: I thought you weren't going to be experimenting with explosives any more... Anyway, is that silicone for use in the type of fuse that I have posted about? If so, I'm glad to see that someone found it useful, and I have found that it is very easy to adapt one of those extruders for window putty that look like guns, to extrude the KMnO4/S/silicone instead. This way I've just made a fuse that was 114 cm long, 3 mm thick and burned 1 cm per 15 seconds. That's almost 30 minutes delay; imagine how much ordinary fuse would be needed for that...

[Mick]

well,so far APAN putty seems to be a go'er.

i made some up on monday night(before i blew myself up)
using 10 ping pong balls, and 200g of 10% APAN.

the APAN mixed into the NC real easy, it took a bit to get the lumps out but other then that, easy.

problems in the "making"
anyone who has made AP Putty with PP balls before will know that when you have added enough AP to the NC it will separate from the container you have it in, and it starts expelling clear acetone out of the putty(like bread dough, when its got enough flour in it, it won't stick to things)
well, when making APAN putty, you need extra AP in the mix, or otherwise it won't separate from the container and it won't expel the acetone - which means it takes fucking forever to dry.(ie. days, not hours) so you'll need to add more AP as you mix in the APAN.(i didn't, so unfortunately i'm going to have to wait for days)

while its drying it needs to be kept in a completely dry environment, otherwise the AN will start absorbing moisture, which will make the AP unstable and will stop it from detonating.
possible remedy is to dry it out as quick as possible, then coat the top of the APAN putty with silicone.

i'm not going to bother with using a detonator for it, i have a very strong feeling that it won't need one, i removed a small chunk from the top today and put a flame to it and *POP!*.
so i am assuming(hoping) that it will detonate from the fuse..if not, i do have a spare AP Putty detonator(good little boy scout).

if the APANP is dry, i'll be setting it off this weekend, i'll take some pics/video before and after

[spydamonkee]

nice one mick, hope you are recovering from your accident.
I'll be very keen in seeing the outcome of your dreams :D

however i have been daydreaming quite abit latly
a fair few film canister apan charges (25 - 30 grams) and a nice 300g charge recently which made a nice amount of noise and debree :p
I have got a new computer with xp, dvd, tv-out etc so a few days and it should be all setup so ill upload the new vids then.

[Mic]

today i dreamt of an 120g APAN charge. Unfortunatly it was a partial detonation. i mix 100g AN from a coldpack. on the coldpack it doesnt specify the content. it was white prills. i grind them and i mix it with 20g AP. the detonator was 3g AP. I put it in a little plastic bottle. It doest make a very loud sound and there was white powder in the bottom of the hole and it make a very small crater. i think my AN got a little damp or maybe its not AN at all.

[Madog555]

musta been dampness, i have had 2 partial dets from dampness, i hate it when that hapens

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Mic, you dried your AN in the oven (before adding the AP :p ) before use right? I find that AN from cold packs is usually quite wet/damp.

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]</small>

[Mic]

nop i didnt dry it in the oven so thats must be why it was just a partial det. . next time i will because thats frustrating when we failed a detonation.

[Mick]

APAN putty works!

the explosive: <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/1.jpg" target="_blank">1</a>, <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/2.jpg" target="_blank">2</a>. very odd texture.

the effect: <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/DZ.wmv" target="_blank">blam!</a>. sorry about the audio, is was to loud for the camera. thats a 1:1 capture too(ie. no zoom)

screen caps: <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/001.jpg" target="_blank">1</a>, <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/002.jpg" target="_blank">2</a>, <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/003.jpg" target="_blank">3</a>, <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/004.jpg" target="_blank">4</a>, <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/005.jpg" target="_blank">5</a>. if you view them in order you can see the shock wave along the ground.

the aftermath: <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/009.jpg" target="_blank">1</a>, <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/010.jpg" target="_blank">2</a>. notice the lack of bark on the trees....mmm sand blasting.

APAN putty is way more brisant then APAN, judging how it cut that tree off at the base and moved very little dirt, and by how my other 200g APAN charge(page 1) made hardly any damage to a tree of similar size but moved a massive amount of dirt.

i unfortunately had to use a detonator, the fuse which i had set into the APANp before it dried got damaged and stopped burning about 10mm before it reached the APANp. the detonator used was about 15g of AP putty(totally oversized, but i hate misfires.).
however, i still believe that a detonator is not necessary for APANp, and will try and prove this next time.

[Anthony]

Good results <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon14.gif" alt=" - " />

I couldn't help noticing that bare sparkler as a fuse, what if a stray spark had landed on the block of putty (and it had been heat sensitive enough)?

[NoltaiR]

Then Mick would not have been available to post his pics...

[xoo1246]

Still suicidal? You are supposed to learn from your accidents, no?
(sorry if I sound like an asshole, but newbies reading this could get the wrong picture of what is relatively safe)

<small>[ September 09, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[EP]

Nice!

One way to make using a sparkler a bit safer as a fuse would be to just stick it in sideways instead of in the top so any extra long burning sparks would fall to the ground instead of onto the explosive. You could also Protect the explosive in somethig like cardboard to protect it from any stray sparks.

[NoltaiR]

Yeah, even wrapping the clump of explosive in a few layers of ducttape would have been much safer than leaving it bare.. but all-in-all, you put on a pretty nice show.

[Eliteforum]

I would have thought just putting a straw (plastic) over the sparkler would stop any sparks from landing on the explosive. But then you always have the "what if.." what if a bit of melting plastic lands on the explosive..

Well that could be solved by the sparkler in a straw on it's side, like someone else mentioned.

[Mic]

Nice video !
I will try that APAN/NC soon! hope this will work as good as you !

[Anthony]

A much more likely what-if would be "hey, I've just made quickmatch!"

[0EZ0]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I couldn't help noticing that bare sparkler as a fuse </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Easy fixed. If using a sparkler as a fuse, wrap with Al foil, then one layer of masking tape. It not only makes the fuse a little safer, but greatly improves reliability as the Al foil propagates heat, and also decreases damage if the fuse is bent.

About a 12x12cm piece of Al Foil is enough. Wrap it tightly around the sparkler as you roll it up.

May seem easy, but it sure helps when only a sparkler is available for use as a time delay.

Quick note: The higher percentage of Al in the sparkler composition, the less likely it is to burn along the insulated layer. To fix, peel back a little more of the Al foil insulation and re-light.

Hehehe, I must sound pretty scummy knowing how to achieve the best results with this type of time delay. For a while I had to resort to a sparkler fuse as my source of commercial fuse had dried up.

[Mick]

obviously the explosive was shielded from the sparkler.
i removed the APANp from its box prior to taking the photos.
also, it was buried, so the sparks went into the dirt, rather then falling down onto the explosive.

[None]

Sorry to stray off topic...

Mick, OEZO and any other Australians, I have emailed a fireworks wholesale company and apparently Fuse isn't restricted here - which i found suprising due to our strict fireworks laws.
I haven't ordered any from anywhere though.

[xoo1246]

If you have access to KMnO4 and sulfur and silicon sealant you can make excelent fuse, as described in other posts. I would hate it if you get injured again, the unstability of the explosive is dangerous enough.

[Mick]

yes, oddly enough i would be somewhat unimpressed if i got injured again too.

none, to my knowledge you can't get fuse in australia with out a permit.

however, if you can buy fuse i suggest you buy up big while you can, then contact me and i'll buy half off you :D

xoo, unfortunatly KMn04 is somewhat expensive over here because you can only buy it in 30g-50g jars(possibly 100g?) and at $10+ a bottle, fuck that. acctualy to be honest i've never bothered to look for bulk KMn04 before, but i've never really needed it.

easy enough to just use sparklers. at 80c for 12 its the cheapest fuse i can think of.

[FarbrorBosse]

&gt;&gt;spydamonkee: well farb i would love to see your magical 20g AP make as much noise as my 150g APAN charge did also my mixes are 90:10 not 50:50

Nod looked a lot closer on the film clip then it actually was, And yes I know the sound pretty well. I dreamed I made a 1200g water device this time(floating unfortunately), I know I was about to stop dealing with explosives but mixing chemicals is very addictive and by some reason the devices keeps getting bigger and bigger. :)

&gt;&gt;Microtek Farbror: I thought you weren't going to be experimenting with explosives any more... Anyway, is that silicone for use in the type of fuse that I have posted about?

Yes Microtek that's the one, I use that silicon fuse rather then the bought fuse actually. It burns at a controlled and slow rate and 15cm fuse is enough to detonate up to a kilo, and still feel safe about it. Silicon fuse wrapped in al foil for extra protection kicks ass! :)

<small>[ September 10, 2002, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]</small>

[NERV]

Seeing that some people have used KNO3 as a replacement for AN in some things, I decided to see if it would work as a replacement for AN in ANAP. I used 10/90 ratios to make about 30g of the KNO3AP. I placed this in a film can (it was unpressed). I detonated it with 2g of pressed AP in a .45 shell. It was then buried under 1 foot of dirt. It was noticeably less powerful than ANAP but I still think I got a complete detonation as there was no left over powder in the crater. Sorry no pictures my bro when on a camping trip and took our digital camera with him.

P.S. I plan on setting off 150g of ANAP under water when my bro returns with our camera.

[Madog555]

hmm, if this is true then it seems that KNO3 can detonate. i always thought that KNO3/NM just worked like a fuel/oxidiser mix

[Microtek]

Mick: Using the ratio 8 g KMnO4 + 2 g sulphur + 5 g silicone rubber I made enough paste to extrude a 3mm thick 114 cm long fuse. Scaling these numbers to 100 g KMnO4 gives 14.25 meters of fuse which burns at a rate of 15 sec/cm. Thats almost six hours delay. You would need more than 200 m safety fuse to match that.

[xyz]

Mick, I am in Australia and for ten Australian dollars and I can get 1kg of KMnO4 from the local agricultural supplier (don't ask me why they sell it) also, the 50g bottles cost $3.50 Australian at the chemist where I am.

Edit : I am also interested in this KMnO4 fuse. Do the KMnO4 and the Sulfur need to be powdered? Is it as simple as mixing the chemicals and smearing it on some string? Can someone tell me which post it's in as I couldn't find it when I searched.

<small>[ September 30, 2002, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[ShockWave]

After reading this Forum for almost a year, I have learned a lot of you people, the last year I have made dozens of AN-related explosives, The first were about 500grams ANNM/AL, but then I made them larger, my biggest one was 3,5Kg ANNM/Al, I caputered it on video and will share it with you when I have my website finished.

Yesterday I found out that APAN is much stronger then Kinepack, atleast I think so, I had some old AP, was 30gr. I mixed it with 200Gr. AN and detonated it with 5Gr. AP blastingcap, most of the time they don't fully detonate when I don't burried them, but since my ratio of APAN was very high I just lay it on the ground, Well, I have never heard en seen such a big explosive like this. there was even broken stone, picture will come soon.

My website will be ready this week, and then I can share my results.

[trev]

i found that out as well with a higher concentration of ap in the an it 99% of the time fully detonates
I used 20g of ap to 110g of an and slightly burried it in a mound of tightly packed dirt. upon detonation there was a loud deep boom when i went back to inspect the blast there was no remaining an and the crater was about 120 cm wide and the dirt surrounding was all cracked

[Flake2m]

Speaking of APAN charges, I managed to detonate a small AP charge today. I would try and detonate and APAN charge but I dont have any NH₄NO₃ and I am almost out of KNO₃ :) .

Well anyway the charge contained about 30g of AP and around 2g of BP. It was electrically detonated. The crater i measured to be 570mm across and 200mm deep. I plan on adding a nitrate compound like NH₄NO₃ or KNO₃ to my next test.

[Mic]

Hello all,
Today I sleep a lot and in one of my dream I made an 90g APAN charge ! :D what a fucking Boom ! that was LOUD and very powerfull !
I grind in a coffee grinder 80g NH4NO3 from cold pack and dry it in the oven. I mix it with 10g AP. I put it in a 100g plastic bottle and I put a 5g AP det in it and I fill the rest of the space with toilet paper. I put the charge in a big (2 feet diameter) Iron pipe which was full of sand. I put it at maybe 6inches of the side and on the front I put a steel platewith 2 big rocks to hold it there. I detonate the charge and the big iron pipe made a backflip (it weight aprox. 500lbs !) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> and its all cracked and all destroyed .. I recover the steel plate 25 feet away and its all crushed and destroyed! I took some pictures but I have no scanner but I will try to find one.
I like APAN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Sorry for my bad english.
bye

[NoltaiR]

He has (probably unintentionally) brought on a good point about how some test their labs.

I think most 'home chemists' underestimate the power of explosives in general. They all make there explosive charge and then either bury it a foot deep or put it in a small confinement. Of coarse the dirt will be blow away and of coarse the confinement will be damaged.

Thats great and all but they are so impressed that they don't take the time to think that maybe it was an overkill. Generally speaking, the more confinement you put on an explosive, the more potential the explosive has because the pressure had to build up much more before the confinement was torn open and the energy released much more instantaneously. The longer it takes for the explosive to liberate its energy from its confinement (speaking in microseconds), the more power you have.

A simple lab test could be to make two charges of 200g APAN (I pick this because it is so common around here) and place one of the charges 1ft in the ground (1 meter) and the other 3ft deep. Observe which blast left a bigger increase in original depth (loosened dirt which has blown up and fallen back in will need to be removed).

[Flake2m]

For all of the charges I have made, I have used a paper casing. The last charge had made had a casing made out of rolled up newspaper wrapped up in tape to keep its shape. I put a cork and one end, and some tissue paper in the other end. I drilled a hole in the casing for the igniter before I put in the explosive (AP). I then bored a hole about 15cm deep and placed any remaining explosive in the hole, I then placed my charge in the hole, clipped on the leads and placed an old phonebook on top so as to try to muffle to sound. I then touched the leads with a lantern battery and BANG a 2 foot crater and soil everywhere :D .

I used a paper casing because they dont create any shrapnel and they are fast and easy to make, plus paper decomposes after a while.

[spydamonkee]

recently i set off 1kg APAN underwater
charge was 10% mix inside a plastic baggy fired with 1/2 a gram of AP
the water was no where deep enuff as on detonation there was a very loud boom and a large geyser of mud and some water, it left a crater nearly 2 meters wide in the mud, not sure how deep the crater was as water soon rushed in and filled it again.
i could feel the shockwave and the ground shake from where i was standing about 20 meters away, water was only about 2 feet deep i think for that size charge you want the water to be @ least 1m deep preferably 2 meters or more to muffle the noise and get the "pretty geyser effect" :p

frames of this shot will be uploaded soon, cant say when for sure as the local law did a search of my house saying they had a tip off i that i was making bombs!!! wtf i told them i have never made a "bomb" in my life!!! :mad:
needless to say they found nothing, bah they were running around looking for steel pipes anyway... amatures :rolleyes:

just to add i wont be doing any more test for a while :o

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]</small>

[Rat Bastard]

Heh, nice one spydamonkee! Email me for any media stuff (remember the hosting?).

[Aaron-V2.0]

Hey everyone, I'm going north this weekend (Tomorrow morning.) to a friends house where I'm going to do my first HMTD synth. This may seem off topic but I think it's best to ask because I couldnt find the info anywhere else. What I'm planning is mixing some HMTD with AN, I know that APAN is a usual mix and HMTD with NC lacquer used to be a mix until it was deemed to dangerous. Now it seems odd that there's barely a mention about a mix of HMTD/AN...

Is there some unwanted reaction between the two? Something like the formation of unstable salts or Ammonium Perchlorate? I'll go check some other sites but I get the feeling I wont find anything.

EDIT: Found the info in this thread (Doh!) though no harm done. The acidity in the AN shouldnt cause any problems for me since it will definately be detonated within 20-30 minutes of mixing.

After the weekend when I return to my homestead expect pictures and some hefty craters! :D

<small>[ October 26, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Aaron-V2.0 ]</small>

[nitriees]

I already try HMTD/AN more than 15 times, no problem at all for the mixture. The longest time i store the mix was 3 weeks, it detonate well, nice deep detonation.

[Aaron-V2.0]

I posted the results of my weekends activites in the thread "HMTD synth with pics" under "Other Explosives" so that I'm not double posting. That way this thread stays on the topic of APAN and not HMTD synth.

<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000441#000074" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000441#000074</a>

[Da Boom Doctor]

Hey!
After the revelation - from NERV - that some people have had detonation of a KNO3/AP mix, (This wasn't explored much) - in your opinion would it be possible to get detonation of a NaClO3/AP mix. (As this the oxidiser that i have greatest availibily of. :cool: )
However i know that Flash won't detonate - so this probly makes it unlikely that NaClO3 will either - but what do you guys think.
If it is possible - What percentage compostion of AP would you recommend?
And would you Advise a APAN booster?
Thanks :)

<small>[ November 15, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Da Boom Doctor ]</small>

[Helos]

Yes, the mix between AP and NaClo3 can detonate and it power will be much greater than AP/KNO3
I guess it is many possible combinations between this.
If you mix 50/50 (or something like that) you will get a flamesensitive mix with a power reported to be several times that of AP, wich is because AP has a negative OB.
NaClo3 is explosive an can detonate even alone.
I doubt KNO3/AP does however.
If you use for example the same ratios of NaClo3/AP as APAN it will probly be very sensitive for a detonator.

However this mix can be extremmly dangerous and sensitive.
If the AP isnt WELL washed from acid, the acids will affect the NaCl03 and possible lead to detonation.
It can also be very sensitive, but I dont know that for sure.

Hey!
After the revelation - from NERV - that some people have had detonation of a KnO3/AP mix, (This wasn't explored much) - in your opinion would it be possible to get detonation of a NaClO3/AP mix. (As this the oxidiser that i have greatest availibily of. )
However i know that Flash won't detonate - so this probly makes it unlikely that NaClO3 will either - but what do you guys think.
If it is possible - What percentage compostion of AP would you recommend?
And would you Advise a APAN booster?
Thanks

[Da Boom Doctor]

Therefore what contrast in power would you predict between 15% NaClO3/AP and 15% APAN?
Is it worth using APAN as a booster or not? I take it this may improve reliability?
Regarding a decrease in stability in the NaClO3/AP - due to possible acidity of AP. Can this be safely solved by the standard Sodium carbonate solution + de-ionised water wash? At what Ph is AP safe to use?
On that mater - is it mandatory to wash AP with distilled water (as this in short supply to me - no Leibig yet :( ) i.e can I use tap water - if not I will have to buy some battery top up water :)

Thank you very much - Sorry if some of these questions sound rather simple but I only made my first batch of AP last week - and I want to ensure everything is as safe as possible, when making, sorry dreaming :rolleyes: , about possible NaClO3/AP mixes.
Thanks Again :p

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Da Boom Doctor ]</small>

[ShockWave]

I just got home from my first charge that I detonated with FLASH !

I have tryed to set off many things with flash but only NG detonated a few times and few times it did not !!

One hour ago I did 40gr AN with 10gr AP, I know it is a bit to much, The mix was in a plastic baggie taped to 1,7gr Flash, and it detonated !

Maybe this is not interesting for many people since everybody knows that AP is very sensitive, but to me it is very handy, I don't have to make a blasting cap anymore for APAN !!

[spydamonkee]

you dont have to make blasting caps anymore then aye... umm what do you call that 1.7 grams of flash then?

its just the same as making a det outa contained gun powder to initiate a sensitive explosive mixture

[Madog555]

well, that is cool, but the thing is that the main reason that you would want to have a flash powder blasting cap is because its storeable and safe, and its easier to make than AP and quicker. but if u are useing a mix that contains AP to det it defeats 3 of those advantages. but it still is safer than a AP det.

[THErAPIST]

i do around 200 rgams of HMTDAN every weekend in around 4 feet of water. i do it in a ditch thats around 2 meters wide by about a meter deep (depending on where you throw it in). there used to be under water growth (a grass like stuff) on the bottom of the ditch and there used to be an ungodly amount of bul frogs in the ditch. well the ditch is now around 2 feet deeper in one spot and there is a spot about a meter wide where there is no longer any under water growth. the water is always murky now and most of the grass stuff for about 2 meters either way from the detonation area is a brown color. looks to be pretty dead. i did another charge of it today. i use a 4 centimeter long piece of plastic drinking straw half full of HMTDAN 50% HMTD 50% AN as a booster and the rest of the straw is filled with HMTD. i press it as much as possible. i can feel the ground thump from around 10 meters away (thats usually as far away as i stand to watch since im behind lotsa trees and i doubt the waters gonna take my ehad off) and theres a splash every time that would put a 400 lb. man doing a belly flop to shame. im gonna do it again this weekend since i just restocked on h202m, fuse, masking tape and plastic bottles. my uncle said i could use his digital camera so ill take a few pics if i can. post the link when i can. ive been wanting to put a pic or two up of HMTDAN goin off in water for about a month now but my uncle just got his camera back from whoever was borrowing it. and im not sure but i think someone said something about pictric acid at one point. im going to attempt to do around 200 grams of AN and pictric sometime soon. around 20% pictric and 80% AN. anyone thought about this or tried it yet?

[ShockWave]

about my blastingcap made of FLASH, Ik have these vogelschreck fireworks, as you can see at my website, so that is what I meant with blastingcap, they are allready in a box, so I dont have to MAKE the blastingcap, just tape it to the APAN, but I think is not a good test after all, I had 40grAN and 10GrAP, that woud be detonateble even with a fuse, so next time I will do ratio 10:2 !

[ShockWave]

Great news !

Atleast for me, I succesfully detonated 44Gr APAN with a flashfirecracker, I had 40Gr AN and 4Gr AP, mixed it and taped it together with firecracker which contains 1,7Grams FLASH !

[DBSP]

I'm shure you can get APAN going with flash. I belive this is due to the large ammount of heat, I don't think that the shockwave from the flash that detonates it.

I'm allso of the belive that the flash doesn't supply the APAN anaugh energy to reach full power. You need a cap to fully detonate the APAN. The shock from the cap detonates most of the AP crystals at the same time, thus speeding up the detonation of the AN. When flash is usedthe AP crystals detonate from both the heat and the shock but at a lower speed. More of a derflagration process than a simultaneosly detonation of the charge.

I might try initiating APAN with flash sometime. If anyone else tries be shure to detonate two charges of the excact same composition and weight. One with flash and one with a regular cap and then preferable on the same place only a short distance from each other. To be able to determine if there are any defferance between the charges.

[ShockWave]

Ofcourse the APAN detonated by the heat of flash, or maybe by the impact but i'm sure that it was not by the shcokwave since theire isn't any.

I'm also 100% sure that it was a full detonation, I tested it on a big rock and after the explosion theire were some piecies that had been broken.

I also have done the same test with a 1gr AP blastingcap, And was just as strong as with the Flash.

Now I will test to see if you have 6 months old AP, which is stored in several batches in a save place, to test it with APAN, the AP has loosed very much power after 6 months but maybe still enough to make APAN.

[carbonated]

Six month old AP is very dangerous to handle. Not many people would be willing to handle it, even just to dispose of. And you want to MIX it into AN?! Just make some new AP and keep in mind not to store AP that long, even in water.

[Anthony]

Why should AP suddenly become ultra dangerous after spending 6 months under water?

[Eliteforum]

The last time I stored AP for a period of time, it developed a yellow'ish skin on the surface, could anyone tell me what this "skin" was?

[ShockWave]

I dont think that 6 months old AP is that dangerous even when stored dry, It looses it power but I have never noticed that it became more sensitive.

[carbonated]

Wouldn't the AP still subliminate? I recall a friend who stored month and a half old AP under water and had to pick out the large subliminated crystals (which are more sensitive) from the rest of the batch.

[Anthony]

I've never experienced AP or HMTD chance in appearance of characteristics when stored, both under water and open to the air.

[TheBear]

Salts, both watersoluble such as KNO3 and nonwatersoluble such as BaSO4, stored under water (KNO3 in a saturated KNO3 solution) becomes more dense over time and tend to make one big crystal. I don't know how AP would behave though.

[ShockWave]

I have done many many APAN charges and many many ANNM charges, I think that APAN is much stronger, but I have never done a good compare test, Is there anyone who can tell me which one should be stronger ?!

[DBSP]

Your ANNM must be seriously fucked up if your APAN is much stronger.

The two of them simply arent't comparable when it comes to power, I'd say APAN has half the strenght of ANNM.

[ShockWave]

Most of my APAN were 200gram AN and 35Gram AP with a 5gram blastingcap, look at my site and you see that this very small bottle with APAN destroyed this big plate of stone.

<a href="http://apanshock.tripod.com/APAN.htm" target="_blank">http://apanshock.tripod.com/APAN.htm</a>

the one below.

tommorow I will do around 10KG CANFO, and now I can't make a choice what detonater I should use, ANNM/APAN/PNNM ??

I want to fill a 0,5L cola bottle, which would be 300gram APAN,or 500gram ANNM or 800Gram PNNM, PNNM is much heavier.

[spydamonkee]

APAN is NOT half as powerfull as ANNM!! i think that APAN is nearly as strong as ANNM.
one way to compare would be to find out the VOD's and info on Pure NM detonating as we all ready know some of the stats for AP.

just it seems to me that detonated AP would be more powerfull than NM... mayb im wrong

[Mic]

ANNM is much stronger! You should use the ANNM booster for your charge.

Last week end, I did a 1.2 kg ANFO charge with a 100g APAN booster but it was just a partial det. :( The booster goes off but I don't think the ANFO detonated.. I didn't recover ANFO but the blast of the APAN must have scatter everywhere..

Mic

[NoltaiR]

ANFO is not only an explosive that likes to be set off in large quantities to achieve complete detonation, but it also requires a good confinement. Because in the microseconds that pass as the shockwave through the full amount of ANFO, the top portion is blowing outwards through any weak confinement (ie. plastic), the bottom portion is being scattered 'into the wind' fast enough so that the explosive is not dense enough to detonate. Try doing the same test in some sort of small bucket made of metal that is buried. The longer the explosive can stay together before the air pressure starts blasting it outwards, the more chance you have of a complete detonation.

[Anthony]

ANNM is more powerful.

VoD of nitromethane is about 7000m/s - no comparison with AP at approx 4500m/s. Obviously the AN is the same. There's more good stuff in typical ANNM than in &gt;20% APAN.

[ShockWave]

Thanks, I allready have made plans, And this time I will burrie the 10kg CANFO, about 1 meter deep, I will record it on video again and take some pictures. I think today and otherwise tommorow, The CANFO is standing for 24 hours, is that long enough to let the FO soak into the AN ?

[DBSP]

What kind of fuel are you using? And what state is the AN in? Prills, powder, activated, recrystalised?

[ShockWave]

The AN is actually C-AN, it was in prilled form but I crushed it with a coffeegrinder so it was very fine powder and I used 400ml normal gasoline from the gasstation.

<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000022#000031" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000022#000031</a>

more info.

[TheBear]

I don't feel comfortable with the 1:9 mixture. What about making a hot saturated AP solution (~50C) in acetone and then add 2,5% of this solution to finely ground activated AN (perhaps ballmilling down 1% sulfur before AP solution addition). Then add 2-2,5% methanol. As the temperature falls and methanol is added the AP should fall out inside the AN crystals and be finely divided through the whole mass. Any thoughts?

[kingspaz]

hm...a hot saturated solution of AP doesn't sound a good idea. what if it catches fire <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ...your funeral!

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I think it should be fine if kept at 50. In federoff theres a procedure for dimeric acetone peroxide where the temperatur is kept at 50-60 degrees.

But still, im not going to be the first one to try it. :D

[ShockWave]

Please don't attack me when I say that I always make my AP at 40c !
People here have told me that it is very dangerous, and I know but I have around 5gram AP within 20 minutes, which is enough for a good blastingcap.

[ShockWave]

But, when the first crystalls of AP is starting to form, the temperature is almost room temperature

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Why would you want to make more of the dimeric form of AP? I definately dont think its a good idea to keep the tmperature at 40 C. Not becuase its likely to explode while your preparing it, but becuase its so easy to keep the temp down with an icebath and get the more stabe, and more powerful form trimeric of AP.

[NoltaiR]

Honestly, if it would be possible to cast such compounds as APAN, that would be the best way to go. And about leaving gasoline to 'soak' for 24 hours.. don't you think that a lot will evaporate?

[spydamonkee]

i really dont see the point of making ANFO with ground up AN as ANFO to me is ment to be simple & cheap... only things i can be bothered grinding prills up for is ANNM & APAN and those i use in small to medium quantities and are not ideal for large charges as their is to much work involved with the making of the AP for APAN to the grinding down of the AN for both.

for all my big charges (10kg+)i just wanna be able to pour desiel into fertiliser bag then let it sit for 6 hours or so then place booster in charge & enjoy the show :D

Back on topic... i will be doing some testing with APAN, ANNM & hopefully a 5kg or so ANFO charge soon, want to try some metal powders with ANNM & APAN see which will give me the brighter flash & bigger fireball 4 effect.

<small>[ December 05, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]</small>

[ShockWave]

Spydamonkee, I thought you were using the C-AN as well? or do you use the 34-0-0 fertilizer? I really hate it to grind up my C-AN, but if I don't grind and I have a bucket with 10kg C-AN and I will add the dieselfuel it will not soak into the C-AN if it is still in prilled form.

Btw the apCan and C-annm works perfect.

[spydamonkee]

yea still using good ole CAN but have a few kilos of recrystalised pure AN lying around so might use that :D
rather than grinding it with a coffee grinder just chuck it all in a bucket and take to it with an electric drill with a plaster mixing attachment on, should smash enuff of the Ca coating off the prills to allow the desiel to soak into the AN... well thats what i will be trying next time.

[ShockWave]

Spydamonkee, I sent you an email, did you get it?

[spydamonkee]

yea got ya email, didnt reply just added ya to msn.

has anyone else tried adding AP to their ANNM charges? i used 70/20/10 AN/NM/AP and set this off with about 1 gram AP in a straw (overkill), charge was 40 grams packed into a film canister and went off very very loud.
other than that have been busy with APAN and a fair bit off ANNM charges. the ANNM ones being a lil larger at 2kg and 1kg in size due to AP stocks runnning low :mad:
all my charges latly havent been buried due to sheer laziness,the use of fuses and the jow of hearing and feeling the huge kafuckinboom.
we were about 6 meters away from the 2kg charge but were behind a sand dune and boy did we feel the over pressure on our ear's and chest aswell as the van door slamming shut from the shockwave even though it was 40 meters away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ANNM is definatly my favourite explosive now but i will continue using APAN for various things as its damn cheap

[vonK]

Spydamonkee, would you mind telling me where you get your nitromethane.
I haven't really looked terribly hard to find any, partly because I don't know where to start looking, but if you could tell me your source then I would have a much better idea.

Thanks
Kurt.

[spydamonkee]

get friendly with your local RC model shop

ask if they have pure "power fuel" or "nitro" so you can test different mixes on your "RC car"

works for me... gotta buy some more now as im all out :(
oh well i know have about 10kg finly ground up CAN so bring on the 10KG charge blowing a car to bits... on tape <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ... good things take time

[NERV]

I did another test of ANAP yesterday. This one weighed about 150g. My fuse burnt longer than expected so I was just starting to stand up when I saw the explosion. I could feel the shock wave on my chest. All the details and pics are <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/blackdragon/ANAPtest3.html" target="_blank">here.</a>

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: NERV ]</small>

[spydamonkee]

1kg APCAN under about 1 foot of water
<a href="http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=125796" target="_blank">http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=125796</a>

might take the video camera out this weekend as will be doing a few more APAN charges when i go camping :p

[kingspaz]

i hope you do take the camcorder!
its always good to see videos of members experiments and achievements nomatter how big or small, its all good!

[10fingers]

I would think ANNM would be more powerful than ANAP. The info I have gives a VOD for ANNM of 6200 m/sec. TNT equivalence is given as 1.2. AN by itself is around 3000 to 4000 m/sec. AP is 5100 m/sec at max. density which is not achieved unless highly compressed.
Also, when mixing a liquid explosive like NM with a powdered solid, the liquid fills the spaces between solid particles thereby giving a higher uniform density. When mixing two powdered solids as in APAN you are not going to achieve a very high density.

[green beret]

Mick and all other Aussies, go to:

<a href="http://www.australianfireworksretailers.com" target="_blank">www.australianfireworksretailers.com</a>

They sell lots of cool fireworks, and fuse, 2mm green Visco, it burns underwater, and costs 1$ per metre, I have stocked up on it :D
They will sell it to anyone,Mick: also I would like to discuss AN suppliers , can I email you?
The fuse is relly good, any other aussies can email me if wish, to discuss supplies etc. XYZ I am very intersted in the 1kg of KMN04...
Most fireworks sellers are based in Canberra, they are still legal for some of the year, and if they sell to other states, organising a permit is out of their jurisdiction so they wont hassle you.
I know of some other people that will sell in Oz, feel free to email me.

[TheBear]

A couple of weeks ago I tested some APAN charges and gave an ANFO charge a go. The ANFO wasn't even a partial detonation. The ANFO charge consisted of 800g powdered AN + 5% ethanol (I'm still waiting for my methanol) and some sulfur. The problem was that I by mistake pressed the boster consisting of 150g APAN (6:94 + some sulfur) a little when inserting the blastcap (a filmcanister). This resulted in a partial detonation of the booster which sprayed the ANFO all over the place. I had made two identical boosters, both in papertubes. So I took the second one rolled it back and forth in my palm to losen up the APAN a bit I then carefully insterted the blastcap and returned to my safeplace 20m away (all charges I set off lies in a carwheel which we have burried 0.3m underground). I detonated the thing using electrical ignition (these tests were the first charges set off using electric ignition, works nice). It made a nice bang and a 2.5-3meter tall cloud (can't find the word but it looked just like those early hydrogenbomb tests in miniscale). It was a really nice sight. The cloud was formed in this way because the pipe (4*15cm) stood right up (I _really_ recomend trying this). The other charges were nothing fancy just some filmcanisters with the booster mix set off (once with a huge pile of styrofoam on top :D )

A little question: this was the first time I used sulfur to sensitise the AN and the clouds after the charges smelled like shit! (I dind't breath any high conc. of it but still!) Any ideas why it smelled like this?

<small>[ December 23, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: TheBear ]</small>

[Keyser Soze]

I'm pretty sure ANFO gives of NOx gases when detonated but i don't know if this is the same for APAN or if the sulfur made a difference.

[lucifer]

A short while ago I placed a charge of 300 Gram AN/NM/AP mix under the ice of a small lake.
When it went off a column of ice and water went 30 feet’s in the air.
It rained pieces of ice for about 4..5 seconds.
In the lake, there was now circle of about 6 meters, where the ice was broken in small pieces.
The ice was about 6 cm thick.
60 Meters from the blast site we still could find pieces of ice from the blast.

[Madog555]

keyser, AN decomposes to N2O.

keyser, are you from the northeast united states?

<small>[ December 24, 2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]</small>

[ShockWave]

Hey Lucifer !

Do you mean something like this ?!

<a href="http://apanshock.tripod.com/Temp.htm" target="_blank">http://apanshock.tripod.com/Temp.htm</a>

Third picture !! :D :D :D

[Keyser Soze]

Blowing things up under ice is lots of fun. It's good for me because it deadens the sound and its also cool because of the shockwave that sort of stays in the ice.

Maddog, whats it to you where i live? Don't mean to sound mean but i am just wondering.

[lucifer]

Yes ShockWave, exactly like that, I really need to get a digital camera.
I guess you also did put the charge under the ice and not on top of it.

I also tried it with a piece of hose filled with 200Gr AN/NM/AP mix.
This time the hose was lying in a circle on top of the ice.
The idea was to cut a hole in the ice.
It made a very load bang, and after the bang there where a lot of cracks in the ice, but no hole.
If I had placed some mud on the hose it would probably have made a hole in the ice.

[Helos]

I also was dreaming about some nice ice/water explosions.

One problem is to manage break a hole and place the charge without an ice drill though. Is there any other good solution for this problem, if the ice is thick enough to walk on. (maybee 5-15cm)
And dont suggest a shaped charge :)

Secondly, I think it is a possibly risc to get nasty injuries if you get hit by the debris (iceflakes). If you are going to blow ice it is important with a big safety distance and even smart to wear a helmet.
How did you protect yourself when you blowed ice (lucifer and shochwave) ?

[Sparky]

You could chop a hole in the ice with an axe. That's what people usually do when they flood rinks. If you want to get fancy you could drill a hole with a spade bit and cordless drill. Your charge has to be kinda small and cylindrical though.

[Haggis]

If the hole is for ice fishing, it wouldn't be safe. The shockwave moves through the ice, weakening it as it goes. The amount of explosives needed to punch a hole in the ice would be more than enough to weaken the surrounding areas and make it unsafe. If all you want is a hole in the ice and nothing more, a 200 gr. APAN charge tamped with sandbags or something similar should work.

[lucifer]

Well maybe a aluminum pipe with thermite would do the job , it would just melt through the ice and leave a nice hole.

[Anthony]

Water has a rather high thermal mass, so melting through it would require a lot of thermite. That and the more important aspect that the melted ice - i.e. water - would quench the composition.

Just use a cordless drill, drill a pattern of holes and form into one large with a ramrod or hammer.

[ShockWave]

How is this possible ?

Almost everyone here knows how to make AP and APAN, how is it possible that some people have a problem with getting a hole in ice ?

As you can see on my picture their are lot's of small rocks nearby, do I need to explain how I made myself a hole in the ice ? :) :) :)

I think that a rock is not hard to find.
And protecting yourself for the Ice? well, If you are their where the ice can hit you then you knew you were to close, No joke, if you want to blow up some ice or a big rock like I did today then you must keep a lot more distance then normally, yesterday I detonated 2 300gr. ANNM and I was 15 meters away, behind my car and the ANNM was just on the ground, no problem at all, just a nice bassdrum <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> but today I did a 500gr under a massive rock, me and a friend were about 50 meters away, but we were almost hit by some heavy rocks, we didn't know that this rock would fly apart.

[Anthony]

Two points:

1) Some members live in countries with very cold winters, and have to make a hole in 6-12" thick ice. Not easy with a rock.

2) Anyone who stands on the ice and throws a rock at their feet deserves to fall through! Don't say you'll stand at the edge and throw it because you won't get much force behind it, nor will you hit the same spot twice - both required to break the thick ice we have to allow for :p

[ShockWave]

This ice was really thick, I drove with my 1400kg car on it and it didn't break.

I must admit that I had to hit the ice about 15 times or more, and yes I am standing about 1 meter away from the hole, when you hit the ice with a rock several times their will be a hole for about 2cm, then you hit it a few times more and it wil become bigger, even if the ice is 20cm you will get through it but will take a long time.

[Helos]

As well as hitting the ice with stones a sledge or axe(as previous suggested)could be used, and you dont need to throw it :)
Maybee this ice-breaking discussion is done now :) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :)

[spydamonkee]

probably the 100th time this thread has strayed off topic :D

Back on topic though has anyone had any success detonating APAN mixtures with Pyrotechnic compounds?
as i have aquired many Red POHA crackers from china and will be testing them on some APAN soon im not too sure if they will set it off but im hopefull, will keep you all posted.

[ShockWave]

I have set off several kinepacks with a 10grAPAN 1:3 and a vogelschreck/knallpatrone(1,7gr.Flash) But the APAN does not always detonate with this firecracker, about 5 of the 10 times it does detonate and the other 5 times the flash has blast all the APAN and kinepack to the ground.

And when you use about 100gram APAN it will always fail when you set it off with flash.

[xyz]

I don't think that the flash is making any difference. In my experience, APAN can be flame sensitive (especially with 15-20% AP)
and that is probably why you were able to set it off with flash.

[Mic]

I dont think that APAN is flame sensitive in the concentration of 15-20% i think that it need at least a concentration of 30% AP or more.. but I'm not sure.. maybe you are right.. This weekend I will try it.

[xyz]

I have gotten it to be flame sensitive at 15%, I was using pure AN which was very dry. If it makes any difference, half of the AN was powder and the other half was prills as I couldn't be bothered grinding it all. I also used a sparkler for a fuse (burns very hot).

[ALENGOSVIG1]

If half of it was prills, then the powder was 30% AP since the other half of the AN wouldnt really mix with AP.

[xyz]

That could have something to do with it, they were small prills (1-2mm) and were the non-porous fertiliser kind, they seemed to mix with the powder though and the charges were still only 15% AP.

I have also made flame sensitive charges with all the AN being powdered but I have never used any lower than 20% AP in them.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Yeah, 1-2mm spheres are going to mix real well with powder. :rolleyes:

Your charge was high conc. AN/AP powder with shperes of AN rolling around in it which i doubt would even detonate in the end.

[xyz]

The prills actually do mix with the powder, the powder wasn't that fine though (just fine enough to go through a kitchen sieve, about the same size as my AP crystals). There was no evidence of an incomplete detonation in any of the charges I did.

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[trev]

i found that by crushing th AN inbetween 2 peices of paper with about 15 grams at a time using a peice of wood with aluminium plate screwed to it and after 3-4 smacks the AN is completly pulverised it is a bit noisy but it works.

[xyz]

I am soon going to invest in an electric coffee grinder, they are the best thing to use as they can powder a lot of AN quickly. That does sound as if it would be a good method for people who are just starting with APAN though.

[NickSG]

A coffee grinder should do fine grinding up AN, but it would ahve to be one that you dont plan on using for foods, because it can spread all over the inside of the blades, and unless you can clean VERY good, it is usually hard getting it all out. Just make sure noone crushes the ANAP in a grinder, or they wont live to regret it.

[darkdontay]

At $10 for a okay Grinder and some common sense I would not think that most members would have to worry about that AN taste in the food. I use a grinder alot and have one just for "special projects". I would hope that no member would use it for Food use after wards or at least clean it realy well.

Although their are some people that just need a little reminding some times of basic things..

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: darkdontay ]</small>

[IPN]

BTW. A good way of keeping the AN dry is to put it in a plastic zip-lock baggie and mixing the AN with some rice.
The rice will absorb the moisture and the AN will stay nice and dry.
And if you want the rice out of the AN just shift it trough a sieve.

[NoltaiR]

Come to think of it that is how I store my KNO3 because otherwise it is inevitable that you will have a hell of a time even getting it out of the container if you have left a good amount of it set alone for a while (I store my KNO3 in gallon jars).

[xyz]

I know KNO3 is slightly hygroscopic but I have never had a problem with it caking together, probably because I store my KNO3 and AN in strong plastic bags with the tops twisted around 10 times or so and then tied with stiff wire (insulated wire so it doesn't cut the bags).

<small>[ January 31, 2003, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[IPN]

I think it is no use to start a new topic about this (like "HMTDAN tests") so..

Yesterday I made (In my dreams <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) a 20g HMTDAN charge in a filmcan with 2g HMTD and 18g AN.
It blew the cardboard tube (the charge was in the tube) in to bits and pieces (wall thickness was about 1cm!).

I’m highly impressed!!

I’m sure it would have been the same if I would use AP in the place of HMTD. Right?

<small>[ January 31, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: IPN ]</small>

[Anthony]

Yep, you can expect pretty much identical performance between HMTD and AP.

There will be *some* difference though, as they do have slightly different initiation performance.

[VX]

IPN, what did you use to detonate that charge?

[Helos]

IPN, dont be amazed because the 20g charge blowed your cardboardtube to bits. It can do more than so.
Test: Put 3-4g AP in a filmcanister and place this filmcanister in a toilett roll. When detonated it will create a confettibomb. You will find that the little charge has blowed apart the whole roll to relatively small piecec of paper and spread them out!

[Anthony]

Although I agree with you, a 1cm thick cardboard tube is a lot stronger than a toilet roll tube!

[IPN]

I didn’t use a det because it wasn’t pressed. I used a plain visco fuse.

It was just a test to show me its power witch is amazing!
I wasn’t expecting the cardboard tube to be blown in bits. The tube was REALLY hard.

Helos, I KNOW it can do more than that (at least now I know :D ).
The next charge will be pressed in filmcan. About 30g HMTDAN with 1g HMTD det. It should be enough.

[Helos]

Anthony, if I didnt made myself clear I meant using an UNUSED toilet roll, this means ca60-120m of paper wristed around a roll, everything will be shattered to small pieces and spread when you only use some grams of AP. Many people underestimates explosives you see- but also some people overestimates them ofcourse.

[Anthony]

I see, my apologies Helos.

Just so long as it is "unused" as you put the emphasis on it, and not merely wound back onto the roll! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[xyz]

A 20g APAN charge that I did once blew the shit out of a 40mm steel pole (40mm wide, wall thickness about 3.5mm). It was the pole from a signpost and the charge was lit and then dropped down the top of the pole.

[PyroTech]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> A 20g APAN charge that I did once blew the shit out of a 40mm steel pole (40mm wide, wall thickness about 3.5mm). It was the pole from a signpost and the charge was lit and then dropped down the top of the pole. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">And that with only 20 grams of APAN? I've detonated 170 gram APAN charges and they make crators! But before 12/31 I tested some APAN charges, some 25 gram charges. But they did not impress me, some fireworks make more noise. Offcourse APAN has more power but not only power counts for me:).
For some pictures of APAN check: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/explosivefd/experiments/apan.html" target="_blank">my apan page</a>. On the bottom there are some pictures of APCAN charges.

PS It's not my intention to disrespect explosives. I respect them, but 25 grams of APAN doesn't make much noise.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: PyroTech ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Did this 20 gram charge just damage the pipe? Or did it completely sever it, dropping it to the ground?

[Skean Dhu]

this is slightly off-topic but, i was trying to make some AP(this is my first time) and +48 hrs later all thats at the bottom is very fine powder that almost look like powdered(confectioners) sugar, when i tried to separate it it redissolved into the mix or was too small to get pulled out by a coffee filter. I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem. i think it may be because of one of the following:
a)had to use 300mL of 3% H202
b) no thermometer, i can't find glass ones anywhere and we haven't had a lab in chem for a while so i've been unable to 'borrow' one
c) i used a peice of metal as a stirring rod for lack of proper glasswear.
which if any of these do you think is at fault?
i was planning on using some of this for APAN (got the AN from cold packs US$.88 each at wal*mart)
i'm gonna throw it out and restart. any tips on how to prevent this from happening again? your thoughts and time are appriciated

<small>[ March 03, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Skean Dhu ]</small>

[EP]

3% sucks big time. Try concentrating it with heat:
<a href="http://krimzonpyro.com/ep/projectsdevicesdir/boilingh2o2test.html" target="_blank">http://krimzonpyro.com/ep/projectsdevicesdir/boilingh2o2test.html</a>

[Skean Dhu]

yea, but it was all i could find. im gonna boil it down when i try it again(most likely tomorrow)
so do you think that is why i have such small AP crystals(assuming thats what the white 'silt' on the bottom is.) my other concern was possibly the metal and whatever coating on it reacted with the H2SO4 creating undesirable metal ions in the solution

i also heard mumblings about freezing out the water, is this worth my time or just a myth?

<small>[ March 03, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Skean Dhu ]</small>

[EP]

Yeah, some metals (all metals?) will react with H2SO4 to create H2 gas, so you might have messed up a bit of your acid. If you got some precipitate that should be AP... Freezing the H20 out of H2O2 does work and I know people who have done it, but if possible I'd still heat it because it will give you a more accurate (but still approximate) guess as to the concentration. If you freeze it, it will take a bit more work to get an estimate on the %.

[Anthony]

It's not unusual to get a wide variety of crystal size/shapes with AP. If you can't filter it with multiple coffee filters then throw it away and start over.

Just don't use a metal stiring rod! A cane, a piece of bamboo, a wooden skewer/chopstick, a drinking straw, a piece of plastic cutlery, even a twig will do!

3% should work fine as it is. If you want to concentrate it, search for the thread rjche started recently about H2O2, he gave some interesting links concerning concentration.

[Skean Dhu]

@EP im pretty sure its the transition metals that react w/ H2SO4 creating the H2 but i could be mistaken.
thanks for your input, i was pretty sure it was because of the metal rod. i would have used something else but i was caught up in the moment of trying something new/'dangerous'.

[xyz]

NBK and PyroTech, sorry about the late reply, it half severed the pole and bent it over to one side. It was a very funny sight because there was a big hole in one side of the pole and the other side was bulged right out with several splits in it. I would take a photo but they recently replaced it with a new one.

In my experience, APAN is very powerful, but I use pure AN that has been kept very dry.

Edit: Pyrotech, I looked at your site and your AN looks like it is not pure. Pure AN should be a slightly yellowish white colour.

<small>[ March 05, 2003, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[ShockWave]

Pyrotech and lot's of other people here like me, are using "kalkammonsalpeter"( dutch )

It is about 78% AN and 22% some sort of Calc ( stone)

boiling off AN is lot's of work and takes hours to get a few KG, this 78% AN is available almost everywhere and is very cheap, 7 euro for 25KG C-AN, maybe it is a bit less powerfull but since it is very cheap you can use more Grams.

Biggest one for me was 17kg C-ANFO, and search on some post from Spydamonkee, he has detonated 10kg and filmed the whole thing.

[Kriegsminister]

Preparing AN from "Kalkammonsalpeter" isn't that much work. Dissolve the fertilizer in water and filter off the chalk. It's best to prepare a great amount in a large bucket, so you won't have to repeat this step over and over everytime you need some AN.

I found it quite easy not to boil of the water but to pour the solution into a shallow container and let it sit in some warm place. The water evaporates more quickly than you think! The larger the surface of the AN solution is the more quickly the water will evaporate. Just wait until only solid AN is left (this will take some days) and completely dry it with a heating fan. It's very easy and almost no work...

[ShockWave]

AN must be very dry before using it and it is getting wet when not stored airtight.

This C-AN stays dry and I can crush in 15min 5KG, so that is 3,5KG AN in 15min with a small coffee crusher, C-AN is really great for APAN, ANNM, ANFO.

[Skean Dhu]

today i had this great pyro dream. there was a 12gram CO2 cartridge filled w/ APAN(i dunno the %, i lack a scale and was force to eyeball it) with some 1/4 inch aquarium tubing and filled two-thirds full and inserted a rocket ignitor. it was burried under 2-3 inches of wet dirt and set off.
it was very satisfying to hear the CRACK-THWUMP for the very first time. and then for the next 10 seconds i heard dirt/ debris falling around me in the woods. the crater it left was like 6inches wide and deep. too bad it took almost all my AP yeild to make the whole thing. and then i woke up. i guess i'll have to wait until i sleep again for another good dream like this

has anyone ever made/tried to make an APAN based plastique. or added AN to their APrc mix? i was just thinking about trying this and then putting it in the vinyl hose i have. your thoughts/ experiences are welcome

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Skean Dhu ]</small>