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spydamonkee
March 18th, 2003, 09:15 PM
go back to page 5 in this thread and you near the bottom of the thread mick has a post with links to pics & a very nice video of APANrc detonating.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]</small>

NickSG
March 18th, 2003, 11:20 PM
Maybe binding the APAN with nc laquer might bind it pretty good. That way there would be 3 explosives being used, but you might have a add a little more AP to aid the detonation of the nitrocellouse.

simply RED
March 19th, 2003, 06:17 AM
APAN brings me back to the summer of 2000 and especially 2001...

chemwarrior
March 19th, 2003, 08:26 PM
APAN brings me back to the time my friend almost blew his hand off.... I think he has pictures of that day, if so, Ill post them. They have some pretty good shots, and he has a slow-motion video of the main blast he did, that is, if the dumb ass didnt delete it....

darkdontay
March 20th, 2003, 04:43 AM
I have enjoyed the rare times when I get to make som APAN, it is so hard to get AN where I live, I have had to resort to Cold packs... :mad:

But it was allways worth the effort. It would be something nice if AN could be made in just some simple three step function [simple to get chemicals and procedures], but I guess that would just make everything too easy.

a_bab
March 20th, 2003, 08:10 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
Today i had this great pyro dream. there was a 12gram CO2 cartridge filled w/ APAN
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">No offence, but you'll better not use CO2 cartridge for your "come-true" dreams involving APAN, if you don't want your dream turned up into a nightmare.

ShockWave
March 20th, 2003, 03:21 PM
Why not ?

because it is a metal case ?

or other reasons ?

darkdontay
March 20th, 2003, 04:02 PM
That is a fair amount of Metal to fling around.
I'm thinking that he is refering the shrapnel that a device of that sort will send out, and things invovling COBs send out metal flying farther then you might think.

I know it is not too safe but personaly I like to be near when it goes off, that is why I try and stay away from using metal as much as possible. Picking peices of metal out of my leg has never been a fun past time, and I do not think it would be pleaseing for any one else.

I'm still wondering if and how he palns on usig a det for the APAN if he has it packed in to a COB?

zaibatsu
March 20th, 2003, 05:02 PM
I assume he could would widen the top of the CO<sub>2</sub> cartridge and insert the aquarium tubing cum det cord. I like CO<sub>2</sub> cartridges because of their size, shape and memories of when I was younger. If it was buried in dirt I think the shrapnel would be slowed down. Maybe burying it more than 2"-3" deep would be safer though.

darkdontay
March 20th, 2003, 05:20 PM
Yeha that is true, I'm just fearful of that one magic peice of shrapnel that comes and gets something important, like a eye or something.

It was mostly the Det that I was seeing as being hard to acomplish.
I would still like to advise a heavy level of caution to anyone using metal walled containment devices.

Skean Dhu
March 20th, 2003, 09:45 PM
Yea, i do realise the danger in using a metal casing for the APAN.
and i was crouched over, behind an old doghouse that was in the woods. so far i've been lucky in the shrapnel department, i just hope i stay that way. and i figure the blast forced most of it up out of the hole so it would just fall back down 'harmlessly'.

it sure was hard as heck to get the APAN into it though. i had to cut off most of the top to get the CO2 cartridge wide enough to fit a straw in, i need to find a better way to spoon it in than a straw. The Det. fit flush with the end of the cartridge and then i packed lightly the AP into the tube and some of it went into the casing thus connecting the two explosives. there might have been a gap but it was close enough to have the shockwave set off the APAN.

i can't wait till my next batch of AP is done, should be tomorrow

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Skean Dhu ]</small>

green beret
March 20th, 2003, 09:47 PM
xyz, is the AN you use Nitram brand, or something else, I am about to do some tests with nitram brand, but if you already have, I wont bother, I'm pretty sure its pure AN but I think it has a slight calcium coating, which shouldnt matter. I found an easy way of mixing APAN by volume, for film cannisters, just put about 1 teaspoon of AP in the cannister, then fill the rest with AN, since that wont mix it well, just take this pre-measured amount out, mix it and put it back in. Let me know xyz, thanks. :D

THErAPIST
March 21st, 2003, 01:49 AM
With the talk of ANAP and co2 cartridges I remembered an impact mortar that I dreampt of when this thread first popped up a few months ago. First off I took a co2 that had been used in my air rifle and I drilled a hole in the top. Second I drove a crappy dart thrue the back of the cartridge and taped it on with masking tape. Third I pulled the primer out of a 12 guage shotty shell and then put a piece of plastic drinking straw on it to use as a detonator. I've only made AP 4 times in my life but since HMTDAN would likely react with the metal I decided to go with APAN. I pressed 1g of AP into the straw and then filled the co2 with ANAP. If memory serves, I think I got about 25g of ANAP in the co2 with a good bit of pressing. After the co2 was filled I poked a space into the APAN with a glass stirring rod and then placed the detonator in. I then took the cardboard wadding from the shotty shell and put a wide head nail thrue it. the wadding was placed backwards into the plastic shell and then the shell was slipped onto the front of the primed co2 mortar. I stood behind a large dirt hill and shot at a piece of inch thick particle board that was about 20 meters away with a pneumatic cannon that has a 3/4 inch barrel. I dont have pics of the wood since the only digital cam I have is a web cam but it blew a hole slightly larger than a softball in the wood, and broke the wood into 3 big pieces. I admit this was a pretty k3wlish idea and it probably should have went into the improvised weapons section, but I think it's alright to put it here since were already kinda on the topic?

webcam pics of the mortar
<a href="http://i-was-bored.8m.com/CO2impactmortar" target="_blank">http://i-was-bored.8m.com/CO2impactmortar</a>

darkdontay
March 21st, 2003, 02:22 AM
Nice little toy their Therapist, you should complie it al into a PDF and uplaod it... it would make for some nice dreams for some of the other members. Puts a new spin on the idea of playing darts.. :D

xyz
March 21st, 2003, 04:10 AM
Green Beret, my AN is not Nitram and it does not appear to have a particular brand. The bag just says "AGRAN 34.0" which I assume stands for Agricultural Ammonium Nitrate, 34% Nitrogen. It came in a 40Kg bag for $29AUD and it seems to be very pure with no calcium carbonate coating (When dissolved in water, only a tiny amount stays undissolved, I dissolved about 500g for making smokebombs with and there was only about 0.25g that wouldn't dissolve).

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

THErAPIST
March 21st, 2003, 05:15 PM
Glad you liked it Dontay. I don't have an account for the ftp yet though. Guess I'll have to email Ctrl_C eh?

green beret
March 21st, 2003, 10:22 PM
Thanks xyz, when I dissolve mine, I would say it behaves the same as yours, so mine must be quite pure also, I think it must be a very minute coating, because it says nothing on the bag, I will try some in ANNM when I get some NM, and I wont purify it, I will just dry and powder it. Also what type of store did you get your AN from, as I have never seen that brand. Thanks.

xyz
March 21st, 2003, 10:32 PM
I think that if your AN behaves like mine does, it would definitely not have a coating, Calcium carbonate is very insoluble. I got a hydroponics store to order the AN in for me.

chemwarrior
March 22nd, 2003, 12:23 AM
Green Beret, I have seen in some garden stores around here some stuff called Nitra. I believe it is similar, if not the same as the Nitram you have. If so, there is a very small layer of calcium carbonate on it. So far, it hasnt made one bit of difference in the few experiments Ive done.

Also, could you give a description of the bag you AN came in, as I may be able to get a better idea if we have the same stuff.

green beret
March 22nd, 2003, 12:38 AM
I only bought 4kgs, @ $1 AUD per kilo, because I would have to make arrangements for a whole bag and they might get sus, but the bag has nitram written on it, and an oxidising agent symbol, and the usual numbers, 34-0-0, but I will try and get a picture when I get another few kilos. I also get my KN03 this way. The AN has a very slight off white colour, almost like a greenish tint, but its not as noticable.

xyz
March 22nd, 2003, 09:03 AM
I used to get my AN in several Kg amounts like that but then a friend and I discovered that the hydroponics store could order us bulk amounts of KNO3 and AN.

IPN
May 17th, 2003, 02:33 PM
I finally was able to get the video of the 20g HMTDAN detonating inside the cardboard tube.
You can download it here:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/otto2000/Tests/Test1.avi

Ps. sorry for the shitty quality of the video.

xyz
May 20th, 2003, 08:50 AM
The green stuff was probably just a mixture of AN and various copper oxides.

Zappy100
May 30th, 2003, 09:44 AM
This is a very interesting topic with even more interesting replies. Rather than ANAP I will do some testing with ANNMAL and ANNMMG mixtures with a Mercury fulminate detonator. I have all the important ingrediens which are fairly easy to get in my country (4 kg of pure AN, 5 L pure NM, 500 gr of AL powder and MG filings - which I will still have to powder). Almost all essential ingredients for nice explosives (with the exception of 100% Nitric, Mercury and obviously det cord) are easy to get here. I believe the explosive capabilities of such mixtures are not much inferior to ANAP but are less sensitive in the handling (with the exception that ANNM should not be moved in order not to increase the density - this is why it is usually suggested to mix on site prior to applying ...).

By the way some tests suggest that the confinement of such mixture should be at least 2" in dia for a successfull blast. I will probably go for metal tube with end caps rather than plastic. Anybody made experience with the difference in metal and plastic tubes?

I'll probably run my tests next week (still waiting for some fresh lab equipment for mercury fulminate) and keep you informed.

Rgds from the "old world"

Mr Cool
May 30th, 2003, 03:51 PM
Several people here have shown that ANNM can be made well before use, and also that it can be detonated with no more confinement than a plastic bag. Larger diameter charges are better if you have a long charge (like a borehole full of explosive, as is used in blasting), but for charges whose dimensions are all very roughly the same, as will be the case with most things we do, critical diameter is not as important since the detonation wave doesn't have to propagate as far. I recommend not setting off ANNM in containers less than 6" in diameter, just because bigger = better :D. There was a thread on zinc-sensitised ANNM, look it up, it might have useful information for you.

"I believe the explosive capabilities of such mixtures are not much inferior to ANAP"

Metal-sensitised ANNM will be a lot more powerful than APAN! And a lot safer!!! If you can make ANNM then you really shouldn't make APAN.

webbsmurfen
June 2nd, 2003, 07:58 AM
I don´t like the Idea of using an CO2 cartridge because of metal fragments in the Explosion, instead use an "film cap" se the link *I dont know what the name is in english, in sweden we use the name "Filmburk"

This "Film cap" is made of Polyetylene. and does not spread any dangerous fragments

http://www.photax.se/ftillbeh/tbx10.jpg

THErAPIST
June 2nd, 2003, 05:06 PM
English = film canister. Stuff the ANNM or whatever you want into a zip lock type baggie and then roll the extra bag up around your charge tightly. tape it so that it stays rolled up. Tape a blasting cap to the side. works just fine. I have had some experiance with metal tubing and such, and I can tell you that the only thing you're gonna get from a metal tube or a plastic tube that you wouldn't get from say.. a cardboard or paper tube is dangerous shrapnel. I have put glue on one side of computer printer paper and rolled up pieces around a piece of pvc pipe and then taken the paper off so that i was left with a thick paper tube. They work great when it comes to putting charges in holes and such, and theres no chance of you getting hit in the face by that piece of metal or plastic that would come from the other tubes. So yea, thin plastic bottle/ plastic baggie or paper tube... best ways to go IMO.

kddflx
July 22nd, 2003, 05:00 PM
While I was surfing the web, I though about muffins and why I didnt know how to make them, which got me to think about flour and cornstarch. Since theise are know to be able to be explosive in dust form, I thought that maybe it could be used to increse the desity of APAN like how you could mix water with PETN because the super small particles of flour/cornstarch would fill up the space air would normally be.

My question is: could flour/cornstarch be used to increase the VoD of APAN? What problems colud happen?

Efraim_barkbit
July 22nd, 2003, 08:49 PM
I don´t think adding a inert material to the APAN will improve performance anything, more likely the opposite. the flour is only explosive in a FAE. that means that you can´t just stick a detonator in a pile of flour to make it explode.

and if you´ve done a good job in powdering your AN, and used enough acid in your AP synth to get down the crystal size, the flour won´t do much for the density either.

This is my thoughts of this idea, but I might be wrong?

matjaz
February 16th, 2004, 10:31 AM
My first APAN dream successful! :)

A cardboard matchbox (5cm*3cm*1cm) filled with 15-20g of 10% APAN was placed on a wooden beam. I just taped the detonator (0.8g of AP pressed into 5cm length of 5mm drinking straw) on top of this.

It was definitely a complete detonation, quite scary to witness from 50m away. Blasted the wooden beam to nut-sized pieces. Total content of AP (det+charge) was less than 3g, but this was A LOT louder than 3g straight AP and MUCH more damage done.

(AN was recrystallized from fertilizer, dried on a room radiator and crushed finely in a mortar. 10% of AP were added along with a tiny pinch of charcoal powder. I then mixed it on a piece of paper until evenly grey.)

matjaz
February 27th, 2004, 09:04 AM
Let's see if you think the same as I do:
1.) 10% APAN not being flame sensitive means that a single tiny crystal of AP igniting by itself would do nothing when mixed in APAN. (This happening in pure AP or high-% APAN would be a sure detonation.)
2.) And since 10% APAN doesn't detonate or does so only very locally from really tiny dets (say, less than 0,1g), would it mean that even if APAN is not mixed really well (having small detonable domains of pure AP) one domain going off wouldn't detonate the whole?

Since it's highly improbable that all grains of AP in one's APAN would independently and simultaneously decide to ignite, APAN must be extremely safe? The only thing which could cause accidental ignition would then be a serious mechanical shock to a big portion of the charge.

If so, would it matter at all if the acidity of the AN (or the nature of AP itself) makes AP a little bit "spontaneous" :) ?

What do you think of this reasoning?

Efraim_barkbit
February 28th, 2004, 06:45 AM
As a starter, I wouldn´t call APAN "extremely safe" I advise anyone with that opinion to take a serious thought about whether you treat it with the respect it deserves.

From my experiences, I find that APAN is VERY easy to set off, I have described my experiences with that on various threads here on the forum.
About "small detonable domains of pure AP", I would say:
If it is large enough to detonate, it will probably be enough to set off the APAN, aspecially if its confined.

I believe that amounts as small as or smaller than 0,1g is sufficient to set off APAN under the right circumstances, I my self has made APAN crackers in plastic tubes from emptied out bottle rockets, filled 3/4 or so with 10%APAN, and with a layer of straight AP ontop in contact with the fuse, and they detonate without trouble.
I estimate the amount to be less than 0,2ccm AP

However, I base this on my own experience, and I don´t have a very accurate scale. So the percentage of the APAN I have tested might not have been 10% every time.


"The only thing which could cause accidental ignition would then be a serious mechanical shock to a big portion of the charge."

That´s a very dangerous thought. Don´t ever think like that when handeling anything that contains AP, or it could be your last thought
What about a small shock, wich triggered the detonation of a tiny lump of AP, that wasn´t mixed well enough, wich in turn spread the detonation to the surroundning AP crystals?

matjaz
February 28th, 2004, 09:28 AM
:) I admit "extremely safe" was a hardcore provocation since i wanted to get some feedback. And yes, I've lived for long enough to catch a liking for it, so don't fear that I'd carry 5g of APAN in my pocket.

You also pointed out to me something important. 0.1g of AP in intimate contact with the rest of the mixture could in principle detonate it even if the same amount in detonator cannot, because there's always some distance and inert material between the det and the main charge.

"What about a small shock, wich triggered the detonation of a tiny lump of AP, that wasn´t mixed well enough, wich in turn spread the detonation to the surroundning AP crystals?"

Well, that was my point. If the lump is small enough, it won't spread. The question is, of course, how small. Thanks for thinking along!

Myrol
February 28th, 2004, 09:55 AM
Hi Guys! Yesterday i made a Charge of 400g 25/75 APAN and we're want to set it off NOW! Yes i know its a huge Amount but hey......we want FUN :D :D The Detonator are 12g AP (i know it, totally oversized but i hate misfires like Hell) and the Main Charge probably at 0,6g/ccm (the pressing Job was to shitty to get a higher Density!). Now lets get busy :p :D

Myrol
February 28th, 2004, 06:47 PM
What a horny Blast......Yeah, Yeah, Yeah! The 400g APAN are now blewed away in the Air we breathed........I burried it not very deep but i think it was not necessary to burry a 400g APAN-charge more than 20cm under an 30m High "Kiefer"tree. Delay was exactly 5,25min. and 80ms :cool: :D :p (I stopped the Time) My Friend and me runned pretty relaxed trough the Forest and than.....BRRROOOUUUAAAMMMM--SHHHOOOOFFFF.....The Sound was not tremendous loud (enough for my Taste :cool: ) but the "Wave" was pretty cool! 500m away.....in a dense Forest, but this damnit thing polished our Hairs like a nice breeze :p That was soooo cool! Next weekend is time left to look after the Blastingsite! I believe the Tree is now very unstable.....unfortunately......I love APAN, its a good Choice for us, because PETN or TNT is very expensive and ASTROLIT too poisonus, right? Okay thats all! Stay sharp and get busy :cool:

Boomer
March 1st, 2004, 11:49 AM
Myrol:

To quote simply RED: BOOOOOLLLLSSSSHHHHHIIIIIIIITTTTTT!
I don’t like flaming anyone, though your story about the 1.7 metre crater (in ‘NG + PICS’) was already hard to believe (how can 400 litre gas blow 1000 pounds of sand away?).

But now you went a little too far. 400g APAN is 1 stick of good dynamite. One of our members is an EOD and gave the formula for blast waves (forgot the threat): He said they decrease with the third power of the distance. (I guess he meant pressure, sound should decrease with the square of the distance. Imagine a half-sphere: 2x dia = 4x surface).
Therefore your 400g from 500m equal 0.4g (4g) from 50m or 0.0004g (0.04g) from five meters away.

How is this going to blow your hair like a nice breeze ??? Through a dense forest ??????
I’ve just yesterday set off ¼ pound of NG/ETN/RDX plastique from 20m (behind tree), severing a ¼” x 3” steel plate, and there was only a shock wave, but no ‘nice breeze’ in my hair! PLEASE STOPP MAKING THINGS UP !!! :mad:

One more thing: You can flame me back, I am only around five times longer than you. But I did not like the tone in which you tried to teach one of our oldest members about confinement…… :mad:
And mind your English (blewed, runned, poisonus, tremendous loud, etc.)
AND CAPITALISE THE ‘I’

Cyclonite
March 2nd, 2004, 04:56 AM
I agree, theres no breeze really. Its more of a "shock" hence the term shock wave. Hes full of shit, iv set off 3lb charges of C-4, dynamite and TNT plenty of times from about 100M away and it doesnt leave a huge hole. The shock feels good, but by no means is it a nice breeze.

Myrol
March 2nd, 2004, 09:25 AM
Cyclonite: I think you are somewhat to insensitive or numbed down to feel soft shockwaves! 1,5kg TNT, Dynamite or C4 makes a fuckin hard wave (for ME!). Im that type of guy who wants a "safe" distance from the Explosionpoint! I was never less than 50m from an Explosion away and prefers ever more than 250m if i take more than 50g Explosive! Shit, why is it so fuckin unbelieveble that 300g AP blewed a 1,7m wide Crater in Sand?? I burried the Charge 30cm UNDER the Sand to make sure that the Gas creates maximum pressure and BLAST the Sand away! My AP was some little wet in the Maincharge, this could be the only reason why it mades such a huge Crater! Remember the same effect with PETN! @ Boomer: Wir könnten uns auch gerne auf Deutsch unterhalten falls dir eine korektere Sprache lieber wäre! Englisch ist NICHT meine Muttersprache also nimm wenigstens ein bisschen rücksicht falls manches schräg oder nicht sinnvol klingt!

Boomer
March 2nd, 2004, 01:16 PM
Oops he did it again! He BLEWED sand away and that MADES a crater !! And he wrote ‘i’ again !!!

This is an English-only forum, so why talk to me in German if you still make four mistakes in two sentences? My English is far from perfect, but it is still better than your German.

Do yourself a favour and be careful in the future, because there is a three-letter admin with a three-letter job here. And if you go on raping his language and making things up he is going to hang you on your kiefertree! I am just warning you, he hates posers and rapists.

Efraim_barkbit
March 2nd, 2004, 04:50 PM
The ONLY thing water can make your AP is LESS powerful.
It is not unbeliavable that you got a 1,7m wide crater in the sand from 300g AP, but when the shockwawe from an APAN charge half a km away "polished our Hairs like a nice breeze " is a so obvious lie, why should we believe the other things you say?

Do your self and others a favour, and SHUT UP. The only thing more arguing from your part is going to do is make you banned, if it´s not to late.

Myrol
March 3rd, 2004, 12:01 PM
Efraim barkbit: ta gueule est nique ta mère tu dégonflé! Tu as un casse-piedes tu enculé :mad: !! Shut up yourself man! This is my last post the Forum here was overloaded with Bullshit and safetyfanatics i'm now away! I hate this fucking Forum who everybody pissed someone on only why he have an shitx3 English :mad: :mad: :mad: Arrggghh.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Babelfish Translation, k3Wl > English:

"BLAH BLAH BLAH!

I can't stand it when people when people catch me lying! I'm only trying to impress my 43Rs0/\/\E IRC buddies and get my chatroom girlfriend "Lolita4U" horny! It makes hi...uh...HERyeah so excited to know such a fearsomely elite bomber like me!

I don't know why people have this fixation with safety. How many fingers do you guys need to push a button? It's not like I don't have 7 fingers to do the job with!

So fuck you all! I'll go to TOTSE where all the other geniuses can recognize my genius too!"

END TRANSLATION.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Well, that was certainly impressive! Just as impressive as his massive crater making APAN charges. ;) :p

NBK

matjaz
March 3rd, 2004, 12:52 PM
...the Forum here was overloaded with Bullshit and safetyfanatics...
Hehe, anyone ever seen a pyro forum overloaded by the safety-unaware? :D

Sonny Jim
March 10th, 2004, 05:56 PM
I think that the possible advantage of densetising APAN with inert crap would be outweighed by the unreliability of the explosive that I think may well come as a side effect. I would also be concerned as to how adding more material would affect the OB of APAN. More 'fuel' into a charge would probably push the OB quite negative unless the whole composition's proportions were altered.

On another note I detonated my first APAN charge in a while. I think previously I had misjudged APAN as I was very impressed with this charge and was not particularly expecting to be.

It was 150g of 12% AP, 88% AN, with a tiny amount of C in there so I could tell when it was mixed well. Placed into a thick cardboard tube, and initiated by 3g of pressed AP. The APAN was lightly pressed to get it to fit into the tube. Where I parked the car near the test site I picked up a dumped chair and thought what the hell. It was the type of old classroom furniture chair, with a metal frame and a wooden seat and backrest.

The chair was laid on its side and the charge placed next to it (I'd forgotten my gaffa tape), and the fuse lit. The charge anhialated the chair; I never found the frame, and the wood was torn apart and splintered. An impressive crater was formed too, along with a fair bit of blue smoke. Unfortunately I have no media available other than a pic of the charge just after its preparation. I took my new video camera but hadnt got it working properly at the time. Anyway though I was very happy with the charge, and now that I have the camera (figured out now) I should be able to video all my future dets!

Xioa
March 11th, 2004, 03:00 AM
we were trying to detonate 800g of Coated AN (47-0-0-0 NPKS) but it failed
I'm a newbie but i'm damn sure that 47-0-0 isn't Ammonium Nitrate, but Urea, which would be the reason it failed to detonate :rolleyes:... Am i right or am i just plain goddamn stupid?

Sonny Jim
March 11th, 2004, 07:04 AM
Yes 47-0-0 is urea. You should use urea to make urea nitrate or nitrourea, not to do it straight. :rolleyes:

http://www.actionvideo.freeserve.co.uk/fertiliser.htm

Ammonium nitrate is 34-0-0, or in the case of it being impure, it will have, amoung other things an equal ammonial and nitric nitrogen percentage displayed. Did on my old 'back in the day' Gem brand fertiliser anyway.

spydamonkee
March 21st, 2004, 07:14 PM
I'm a newbie but i'm damn sure that 47-0-0 isn't Ammonium Nitrate, but Urea, which would be the reason it failed to detonate :rolleyes:... Am i right or am i just plain goddamn stupid?

No your not stupid, the person who made the mistake many moons ago may have been but he/she has now learned as we all do, if you keep reading on you'll understand, so no need to :rolleyes: about it

Myrol
May 1st, 2004, 09:25 AM
Whats your opinion? Last weekend I blewed up a 800g 15/85 APAN charge with addition of 1,7kg ANNM in an other bottle :p The Blast was not VERY impressive yes ok I felt a nice Wave trough the Detonation and heard also a loud KABRAMMM but the Sound was not that loud as 3g AP 8cm under Water in 30m distance! (I was 250m from the 2,5kg Explosive away!). The Father from my Friend heard the Explosion awesome good and he was 2,6km away but you should know he overexagurates the Bang always a little bit.......I would say that a 25/75 APAN somewhat better than mixtures with lower content of AP is because 400g 25/75 APAN was in a other way more impressive then 0,8kg 15/85 APAN! If I have enough time I will test 5 same samples of following mixtures: 12/88, 15/85, 20/80, 25/75 and 30/70 APAN! I stick to the 25/75 mixture as the best but whats your expirience? Would you say that the stochiometric 12/88 APAN is better then 25/75 or tend you also to my Idea-> more Gas per kg= In a special way better? Expierences are very welcome :)

Sonny Jim
May 2nd, 2004, 07:53 PM
What percentage is your NM? That much should have been enough to deafen half your county. As for APAN, I find 12% pretty good. Would you really say it's worth making twice as much AP for the improvement you observe? I would have thought that high a percentage would drag the performance down somewhat since the OB would be quite negative.

Myrol
May 3rd, 2004, 11:08 AM
Hi Sonny Jim ;) Yes I know, it sounds like a senseless Idea using more AP then necessary but......I tried to calculate the mainreactions in the choosen APAN-mixtures and come to the following result: If you're using more and more AP the Gasvolume per kg raises from 955Liters for the Stochiometric to 1130Liters for a 30/70 ratio! Its everytime unbelievable for me to see how strong AP really is! A OB more worse then Methylalcohol and a density like Cottonpads...But only 0,3g can blow your Fingers into ugly shreds..... :rolleyes: I think AP is so (relatively) strong due to the maximum Gasvolume given off whilst "Decomposition". Think on our Industrial common TNT....if IT would have a Gasvolume like AP......uh-ohh..that would be great :cool: Can you follow whats my point? An Explosive produces GAS....the more he produce, the more its unimportant how energetic he is! So if the time is coming I try a nice Test to compare six Explosives: pure AP, CAPAN 80/20 (25g CAN, 5g AP my CAN has 77% AN rest is Chalk), APAN 12/88, 15/85, 20/80, 25/75! The best APAN wich produces the biggest crater in the same ground (I know its a unaccurate test but I have no better choice) is this I will use for the Future! The CAPAN-Test is necessary to see how strong the chalk reduces the power and the AP-Test is a bare comparism because I have (like you) :D good expiriences with AP and its performance! P.s. Umm yes the 2,5kilos ANNM/APAN was well hearable for (too much) people, but thats unintresting because thats the awesome sideffect with our "spectacular" Hobby :D :p !

Myrol
May 3rd, 2004, 11:10 AM
Whoops...(forgotten...) my NM was 99,8% or probably higher because I distilled the yellow colourant out of the NM!

Boomer
May 3rd, 2004, 12:22 PM
The crater test is not bad to compare the heaving power (equal to heat of explosion * gas volume IIRC) of similar explosives. It is even used in the military to compare different compositions for shells.
Only thing to remember is not to use too small charges. If you put some identical charges of say only 5g APAN into the earth, you will notice a big difference in the crater size, depending on whether that particular spot is a little softer or harder, whether a big hard lump is blasted away in one piece or not etc ... . With increased scale this equals out to some extend.

A good test for brisance is to fill identical steel pipes with the different explosives, and detonate them so you can collect the fragments. I do this in the concrete cellar of an old hunting-hut in the woods, where I separated a corner with an additional brick wall. You collect the fragments, and count those that are under 1g, 1-2g, 2-5g etc. This gives you a so-called fragmentation factor which KAST found to be nearly proportional to the brisance value (within 5%). The advantage is that you can use smaller charges. :)

Another brisance test which I “invented” for HOME USE is to put VERY small amounts into a miniature cap and detonate them inside a ½” water pipe without end caps. This pipe is put inside a longer 1” pipe with end caps, one with a vent hole and one with a hole for the cable. The whole assembly is wrapped into pillows for noise protection and placed in a wooden box (just in case, though the outer pipe always holds, and I fire from another room).
The charges used are 400mg + 100mg HMTD, which - in direct contact - detonates about everything that is cap sensitive in a small, closed tube.

The explosion leaves a circular dent in the walls of the inner pipe. You can take the diameter increase as a measure for brisance. If you move the charge down the small pipe every time, it can be re-used 10 times, leaving ten “bellies” for documentation purpose.

The thing is so silent you hear only a faint “plop”. In fact I use it in my room at night without waking the neighbours a room below! :p

Other tests using sheet metal and compare the dents/hole sizes have been described on this forum. Some pics are here (post dated march 18th) http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=58746#post58746.

BTW, Ever seen the EDIT button?

Sonny Jim
May 4th, 2004, 06:54 AM
Myrol:

I see your point, but for some applications gas volume alone won't cut it. It's great if what you want to do is blast a big hole, but if you want to shatter concrete, VOD is much more of an issue even if there is less gas produced.

I have not myself tried APAN with ratios as high as yours, but after I'm finished tinkering with nitromethane explosives for a while I'll put myself a few tests together and see for myself. :D

sprocket
August 22nd, 2004, 06:39 PM
Recently tested two different HMTD/AN mixes, the first was AN:HMTD:Al (roughly 80:15:5) and the second was AN:HMTD:Propanone ([again roughly] 88:10:2).

The first was detonated using a somewhat shaped charge of PETN (~3g) initiated by HMTD (~3g). As much overkill as this was, it certainly did the job. This somehow ended up on tape here: http://heat.tk/pyro/projects/HMTD1/

The second was detonated using a much smaller detonator, a brass tube with PETN and HMTD (~0.5g of each). The first detonator miserably failed, only the HMTD in it detonated leaving the PETN untouched, but after replacing it with another the experiment could continue. A camera was set up to record this, but it most unfortunately ran out of battery while the fuse was burning.

Both charges were in the fairly standard unit, "one film canister" weighing in at an estimated 25g.

Lacking a scale this has little scientific value, apart from showing that the somewhat odd AN:HMTD:Propanone mix works. In this post the incompability between HMTD and metals was mentioned, I noticed nothing of this in the AN:HMTD:Al mix. This mix was prepared some 2 hours before detonation.

nitrogeno
August 27th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Recently tested two different HMTD/AN mixes, the first was AN:HMTD:Al (roughly 80:15:5) and the second was AN:HMTD:Propanone ([again roughly] 88:10:2).

The first was detonated using a somewhat shaped charge of PETN (~3g) initiated by HMTD (~3g). As much overkill as this was, it certainly did the job. This somehow ended up on tape here: http://heat.tk/pyro/projects/HMTD1/

The second was detonated using a much smaller detonator, a brass tube with PETN and HMTD (~0.5g of each). The first detonator miserably failed, only the HMTD in it detonated leaving the PETN untouched, but after replacing it with another the experiment could continue. A camera was set up to record this, but it most unfortunately ran out of battery while the fuse was burning.

Both charges were in the fairly standard unit, "one film canister" weighing in at an estimated 25g.

Lacking a scale this has little scientific value, apart from showing that the somewhat odd AN:HMTD:Propanone mix works. In this post the incompability between HMTD and metals was mentioned, I noticed nothing of this in the AN:HMTD:Al mix. This mix was prepared some 2 hours before detonation.

The quantity of explosive was enough, it can have failed for the form of the detonator. It is sometimes convenient to use detonators in way of bottle neck, to concentrate on a point the explosion. Greetings... Nitrogeno

Myrol
September 17th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Sprocket: Your estimated amount of explosive is very rough but if you dont have pressed the stuff to much 25g could be ok. Tomorrow I will set of four Filmcanisters à 35g APANAl with a 35mm wide and 35mm tall metalcone. These are my first real tests with (hopefully) good Hollowcharges. If something worked good I will post it here. My maintargets are a log of Wood, a big Stone, Earth and if I find something........Steel also! This Target wich worked as the best will also be penetrated with my Linear Shaped Charge (20g APAl). I think a good high percentage APAN or APANAl is not that bad for HSC's and LSC's....a cast block of B-4 is surely better but I think no one has this sweets to do so!

K'Luuppo
October 14th, 2004, 12:55 PM
I dreamed today my first APAN test. It was 9-10g (my scale really isn't accurate) AN and ~1g AP. The AN was quite rough, I didn't succeed in grounding it down to smaller particle size. I mixed the two ingredients and tiny amount of charcoal on paper, and after about a minute it was grey all over.

I packed the mixture in a plastic ziplock bag and inserted the det which was two .22 long (maybe 3cm) small-bore rifle shells filled with slightly pressed AP. Fuse was then put into an tube, and the whole thing was buried few cm underground.

Fuse was lighted and soon there was not-so-loud "thumb!", which was quite low, compared to bangs from AP crackers, but I'm not very sure if it was just the ground which made the sound lower. I found some pieces of that plastic bag, so I think APAN didn't go off. On the other hand, the hole was expanded little, and I think that couldn't be made by AP.

I can't figure out whether the AN went off or not myself, so if anyone could help me out with this I would be grateful.

Pictures and video coming as soon as my friend gets them on a CD.

Detonate
October 14th, 2004, 01:13 PM
10g of APAN isnt alot. Try 25g. Also you have to grind your AN to a fine powder. This is much easier if the AN is heated to 60°C. You can also try to activate your AN. And if you want a complete detonation with a that small detonator you should use more AP. (An AP content of 15-20% works nice.)

K'Luuppo
October 14th, 2004, 01:34 PM
I know that isn't a much, but I thought that better to make too little than too much, since I hadn't any kind of knowledge about the power. Probably I make a bigger batch APAN next time I make AP.

Detonate
October 14th, 2004, 01:46 PM
APAN is a good HE. Its powerful an easy to make. But if you burry it, you should use 25g or more. Ive once detonated 8g of APAN in a papertube. It made a loud bang. Much louder than the 1,5g AP i added. But if you can get NM you can make ANNM. Its easy to ignite and is more poweful and a lot saver than APAN.

K'Luuppo
October 14th, 2004, 02:18 PM
It was buried because it was only few hundred meters to first houses, it was like a city park where I dreamed. I know that ANNM would be better, but NM is quite expensive (42€/l) and I don't have money for it. But if I suddenly become rich, that would probably be one of the first purchases.

Detonate
October 15th, 2004, 03:08 PM
42 € for 1L of NM is too much. I pay 20€ for one liter. Then you shuld use APAN. But try to heat the AN before grinding it. Then its much easier. I always heat my AN in the ofen @60°C for 1h.

Myrol
October 16th, 2004, 04:43 PM
To K'Luuppo: I think im sure why your APAN doesn't made a surprising good result: Its wasnt mixed intimately enough. I made a lot of APAN charges and for my results, its extremly important to mix AP and AN very well together. I say, the best performance can be reached if your dry your AN very good and grind it nearly to meal size fine particels. Do this also with your AP via sifting it trough a sieve! Mix your AP and your AN with a Spoon in a large Can and for perfection, add around 15% hot Acetone to dissolve most of the AP in the prepared APAN. Stir the slurry well and let the hot Acetone evaporate fast enough to keep the AN away from Moisture.

THIS is then really good APAN much better as usally, but I must say, APAN does the Job just half as well as APANAl. Since my first Aluminized APAN Filmcanister......I never had fired ordinary APAN again. APAN makes a lot of smoke, the Bang is deep und dull but with APANAl....whoo hooo you get the Hell of kick in your Ass and the Sound is also a lot sharper as with straight APAN. APANAl should be very hot. The Fireball/ Explosionflash is very good visible even in direct Sunlight. The Colour is typical for Aluminium, bright yellow orange white. If you have Acces to Al-powder use the oppurtunity!!!

K'Luuppo
October 16th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Well it looks like I'm going to stick on APAN. I don't have money for NM and Al-powder is out of my reach.

Anthony
October 16th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Spherical paint grade Al will work. It's also used for "cold casting", where it is mixed with polyester resin to form a pseudo-metal.

"Mix your AP and your AN with a Spoon in a large Can"

May I suggest mixing by the diapering method, where the mixture is rolled together across a sheet of newspaper, as an alternative? This is the method used for sensitive pyro compositions, such as flash powder, and is much safer. Even a plastic spoon, in a plastic bowl would be a great improvement!

nbk2000
October 17th, 2004, 09:17 PM
Do this also with your AP via sifting it trough a sieve!


Care to buy a dogtag now, so we can identify your charred and scattered remains when the AP explodes from crystal breakage and/or friction as you're rubbing it through the screen, plastic or otherwise? :p

AP crystal size is something best adjusted BEFORE hand by controlling the reaction temperatures/mixing/reactant ratios, so you precipate the required crystal size to start with, rather than risking death by grinding it down to size AFTER the fact.

PS: 'trough' is something hogs eat from. 'Through' is passing something through a screen. Dictionaries are our friends. ;)

K'Luuppo
October 19th, 2004, 03:29 PM
I plan making AP with 50ml 30% H2O2 so according to Arthis's guide I sholud have some ~30g of AP, so I could make 100g of 10% APAN. The question is, how big detonator I should use? I thought about a .308 rifle cartridge filled with slightly pressed AP. Would this be enough?

K'Luuppo
October 21st, 2004, 05:23 AM
I know I should edit my last post instead of posting a new one, but I can't find the "edit" button.

Here are the pictures and video about my first APAN tests. There is also quite much pics about AP, but all pictures and video related to APAN are named with "APAN" -starting names.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/verkku/hip3

FinnBell
October 21st, 2004, 12:33 PM
Im not trying to be a dick or anything man but, Im just a bit confused about your last post, I might just be retarded though.
I plan making AP with 50ml 30% H2O2 so according to Arthis's guide I sholud have some ~30g of AP, so I could make 100g of 10% APAN. The question is, how big detonator I should use? I thought about a .308 rifle cartridge filled with slightly pressed AP. Would this be enough?
Okay if you made 30g of AP, into 10%APAN how is that 10%? and is that 10% AP or AN cause if it was AP then it would be 300 grams wouldnt it? Im sorry Im just not clear on that.

K'Luuppo
October 21st, 2004, 01:39 PM
I meant: ...should have some ~30g of AP so I could make 100g of 10% APAN and still have 20g to play with... But you're right, I was quite unclear with that.

Detonate
October 23rd, 2004, 07:58 AM
Try a higher AP content! APAN with 15%AP is easier to ignite and (In my experiences) more powerful. I was able to ignite a 25%APAN with only 0,25g AP. So you could use 85g AN and 15g AP and a 1g AP detonator.

vurr
November 30th, 2004, 12:03 PM
cheapest method: con.NaNO3 soaked & dried paper...
low-ashes newspaper should work.
(APAN 1/4 to 1/8 is spark/flame sensitive;AP and AN was mixed with little organic solvent (ethanol,xylene,..) and air dried)

Droehner
December 19th, 2004, 06:44 PM
is it good to disslove some petroleum jelly in hot Toluene and then mix it to the APAN mix? and the for better Det. some Al Powder is add to the final mix. What you think about this?

Joeychemist
December 19th, 2004, 07:06 PM
Droehner

What is the purpose of this?, how much petroleum jelly and tolune do you want to ad to the APAN? I don’t know if it’s a very good idea or not. I do know that if you add AP to a hot solution over 90c it will decompose and the AN just might re-crystallize to become activated.

As for adding AL to APAN for blasting caps, that’s not too smart, AN is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs and holds water. AN + metal powders + water = spontaneous ignition. No good for blasting caps at all.