The Great OTC Survey

[Alexires]

*cough* Yes, it would be easy for someone to just PM me and get the source, but the fact of the matter is:

a) it would need to be a registered member for them to bother and
b) they would need to be in Aus, cause its an Aus source and
c) you'd be surprised at the amount of people who can't be fucked PM'ing someone to get a source.

Anyway, I want to hoard this to myself *wink*.

[megalomania]

If he posts it publicly it will get spidered by Google, be searchable by millions of people, and be archived somewhere for years to come. Others will be able to take the info, post in on their websites, and spread it around to millions more. Compare that with the handful of PMs he might get.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

That makes sense under that reasoning then. My bad.

[osin]

I've just got a quick question. I've just recently I found some fertilizer labeled "sulphate of potash" and on the front it stated 41% potassium. Would this be reasonably high grade knO3?

+++++++++

:rolleyes: Oh my FUCKIN' God!

Where did you EVER get the idea that SULPHATE of anything is going to be a nitrate?

NBK

[rayman]

Osin
'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate'
'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_sulfate'

[prufrock]

I was able to locate the following chemicals in various area stores.

Potassium Nitrate 50 pounds Cost $13.99

Ammonium Nitrate 50 pounds Cost $13.30

Muriatic Acid 1 gallon Cost $ 4.49

Naptha (VM&P) 1 gallon Cost $10.99

Xylene 1 gallon Cost $15.70

Toluene 1 gallon Cost $10.40

Battery Acid 5 gallons Cost $15.95

Isopropanol 99% 1 gallon Cost $11.49

If I buy, I always pay cash for my purchases. I have noticed a large variety in chemical prices, for example, muriatic acid was $6.99/gal. compared to $4.49, many of the solvents were being sold as pints or quarts with no gallons available.

We have found that containers of solvent in 5 gallons (acetone, methyl ethyl ketone) is the best buy, however, gallons were more available (common) than 5 gallon. Battery acid (battery electrolyte, about one-third sulfuric acid) is best to buy in 5 gallons. The battery acid is also sold in 32 ounce containers for $3.00.

The large stores like Wal-Mart or Lowe's are not the places to shop for chemicals/solvents. Wal-Mart is real limited on what they carry in dry chemicals or solvents, Lowe's has a little more to offer but they are expensive in contrast to other stores. I did find some 35% hydrogen peroxide in a 32 ounce bottle for $8.95, however the store would not sell it to me since I did not have the required beautician license.

My wife and I hope this information is useful for those who need legal chemicals. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to buy any type of material that could be dangerous. This will become even more difficult as time goes on.

[chembio]

Here in Malaysia, I've compiled a list of chemical prices. If anyone of you ever come to Malaysia, look around :)

(The following prices have been converted into USD)

KMnO4 crystals - 20g for 50 cents
Menthol crystals - 20g for 50 cents
H2SO4 (battery acid) - 1 dollar a liter
40% H202 - 2.50 for a liter
20% H2O2 - 80 cents for 150 ml
98% HNO3 - 20 dollars (for how much? NBK)
40% Formaldehyde - 12 dollars for 2.5 liters
Iodine (liquid) - 90 cents for 150 ml
Chloroform - 23 dollars for a liter
CuO - 40 dollars for a kilogram

That's all. Hope it helps.

[ztrain727]

I was able to locate the following chemicals in various area stores.

Potassium Nitrate 50 pounds Cost $13.99

Ammonium Nitrate 50 pounds Cost $13.30

Thanks...but first, what country do you live in and second what type of stores or even better actual store names of where you found the fertilizer (as I assume it was). I'm mainly looking for AN and that's an amazing deal! Thanks again.:D

[megalomania]

I was in a tool shop yesterday and I found a chemical containing benzene used as an anti-static wash for painting and priming cars (that is the section it was in). There were several other organic chemicals listed, no percentages. Cost was $17 for a gallon.

This is the first time I have seen a consumer product with benzene in it.

[ztrain727]

Could someone help me find AN fertilizer please. Which of the stores her do you think would be most likely to carry the fertilizer: Here (http://www.yellowbook.com/?A=1&T=1&BQT=3&Q=categories%3A+fertilizer&WH=princeton%2C+NJ&x=0&y=0)
or Here (http://www.yellowbook.com/?&A=1&T=1&Q=garden&WH=Princeton%2c+NJ&PN=1)
And what would you ask..."do you have nitrogen fertilizer...I need it for my fruit tress...and is that ammonium nitrate or urea or what....its 34-0-0? Perfect!"

[nbk2000]

SPOONFEEDING REQUEST! UTFSE! :rolleyes:

Better yet, call around, fuck up, and learn. Repeat until you succeed. Repeat your successes, don't repeat your failures.

[ztrain727]

Chill the fuck out...just looking for help. I have called without success. Why the fuck is everyone so uptight and rude on this forum. I searched my ass off, found a few west coast websites, eBay is a rip off and so are cold packs. I would just like to know in what way you all obtained your AN (like for a garden or what)? I have no successes to speak of as of now, so thats why I'm asking.

I have never seen any forums in which admins and members are so rude and inconsiderate...I guess I'll stick to a0tu for now where people actually help... I know when people say is ANFO fuse sensetive its anoying, but this is entirely different. I just need advice, but never mind.

[megalomania]

First of all you inbred moron do you know what thread you are posting in? Did you bother to read what topic you are asking your stupid question in? This is a thread about listing the sources of chemical ingredients of consumer products. Do you see anyone else around here asking how to get ammonium nitrate? Did you perhaps not notice the several other threads about ammonium nitrate that may be a bit more appropriate?

No, you just blurted out what ever stupid drivel popped into your teenage head because you are an ignorant kewl who thinks everyone here exists to help you with a lame problem you should be infinitely capable of handling yourself. What did NBK say? Call the places and ask. How the hell are we supposed to know, or did you want a grownup to call for you because your voice hasn’t cracked yet and you sound like a child?

You searched your ass off? What did that entail I wonder? Maybe 15 minutes googling for ammonium nitrate I bet. If you really want to find sources you have to get off your lazy ass and drive to the stores, call these places, shop around, and do more than just type a few keywords into a search engine.

If you want advice I suggest you stop bitching when the world does not bend over backwards to cater to your idiotic whims that you could have figured out for yourself. I also advise you to crawl back to whatever forum you hatched from prior because you have certainly overstayed your welcome here.

[nbk2000]

I went to a0tu, and found their Mission Statement very similiar to ours. :)

However, with 2,342 posts in their HE section (mostly +1 posts), and more than 10% of that number of posts in just this one thread, I'd say it's pretty obvious that a0tu (and its members) have a loooong ways to go before they get to where we've already been.

The Forum is like a public library...the adults come to learn, but there's always the ill-mannered children who come in and run around bothering the adults.

Sit the fuck down, shut up, grab a book (or read the whole thread, UTFSE), and maybe you'll learn something. Ask an adult a relevant question in the relevant section of the library and you might get an answer.

If you are polite, and demonstrated that you're actually interested in the learning the subject matter, and not just looking for a canned answer, you might even have someone show you where to look for more information on your o0wn. :p

Run around in the aisles screaming your fool head off and you'll get shown the door. :mad:

You're not going to get any sympathy by whining from people who were sourcing chemicals back in the pre-'net days...going through phone books, trips to the library, calling all over the country, and taking long trips to obscure businesses to pick it up in person.

[PeterB2]

Just bought 5 lbs. of fine-grained Potassium Permanganate from a local pool/water supplies shop for $30. It was manufactured by Pro Products, LLC. Looks to be of a nice quality although its the first time I have bought the stuff.

While I was at the shop, I also noticed a 10% solution of a NaClO for $5. I don't remember how much it was, but it was more than a gallon. Much better source of NaClO than bleach!

The owner of the store is quite supportive of my interest in chemistry and sometimes gives me extra stuff for free. I received some activated carbon (maybe 250 g), ~30% H2O2, and ~30% H2SO4 all for free. Nice guy...

[Alexires]

First of all - Success! Finally a source of metal powder in Aus that actually sells to individuals. Actually, this place sells many interesting things. If you get the chance to, I would recommend having a look in a "Moulding and Casting" Suppliers store.

A plethora of interesting things are being sold in that shop.

If anyone in Aus wants to know about that source, contact me via PM or email.

Now, as I don't really want to start another new topic, I would like to analyse a particularly successful exercise in social engineering with a few tips to those who might just be starting out and have no idea how to go about procuring OTC chemicals successfully.

Here is the situation as well as I remember it along with my quick thoughts and comments. I have passed this shop a few times and I decided to see if they sold aluminium powder.


Begin Transcript.
Alexires Enters Shop.

“Hi, how’s it going?” – Him
(The salesman was rather young, not much older than myself, probably in his early 20's with a kind of punk look about him. His greeting me first and putting his book down signaled that he was ready to listen to me and help me.)

“Yeah, not too bad at all. Yourself?” – Alex
“Yeah, not bad. What can I do for you?” – Him
(By engaging him in some quick plesantries, I helped to set up my image of an introverted, nice person that wasn't his normal clientele.)

“I’m looking for some metal powders, d’you sell any?” – Alex
(Note the use of casual language. Fairly common in Aus. He looked of fairly average intelligence, so I decided on that kind of semi-slang.)

“Yeah, what are you looking for? We have aluminium, tin…?” – Him
(Made what I view as a mistake here. I was so shocked that they actually had aluminium powder that I interupted him after tin. I should have waited for him to continue until he had given me the full list in case there were other interesting things.)

“Yeah, actually, I was looking for aluminium.” *I followed him over to the metal powder shelf* “I’m an artist, and I make some of my own paints. My supplier of aluminium went out of business a couple of weeks ago and I haven’t been able to find a supplier since.” – Alex
(Here I have explained what I do, my reason for wanting metal powder and why I'm buying. Note that I didn't give too much information, just enough to satisfy. People that are lying often try to make their story too good.)

“Well, we’ve got tin, aluminium here and here, gold, copper and anything else you might want.” – Him

*Looking around* “Wow, you guys really do have a lot of stuff.” – Me
(Picking up on the comment that they have anything else I might want, I decided to try and see exactly what "anything else" was by using a leading statement.)

"Yeah, pretty much anything you could want. If you can think it up, we probably can get it." - Him

*thinking* "Anything, you say?" - Me
(I was deciding whether to ask about Nitric Acid as it might have been suspicious. Decided to go for it.)

"Yep, anything" - Him

"Ok then. How about nitric acid? A friend of mine does photography in the old style, with plates and all that old stuff, and he has been looking for nitric for ages and can't seem to find any."
(Probably too much info, but then again, what would an artist want with nitric?)

"Well, I don't think we have any, but we have things like it"
*we walk over to a shelf that has Ferric Nitrate on it*
"There is Ferric Nitrate, but no nitric acid. But I'm pretty sure we would have to be able to get it, as some metal get aged by corrosion" *shows me some samples* "I'll have a look for you, and get back to you on it" - Him

"Thanks, that would be great." *Goes and gets some Al powder* - Alex.

(Here things threw me off a bit)

"Ok, could I have some details to put you on our register" - Him.
(I almost shat myself at this point. I had to make a quick decision what I was going to do.)

"Sure... Whats that for? A mailing list or something?" - Alex.

"Yeah, and if we need to do a product recall. Wouldn't happen with something like this, its normally the silicone. So, what's your name?" - Him.

"Alex." - Alex

"Residential Address?" - Him
(I hadn't thought about this. Big mistake, violately RTPB Seven P's)

"Uhhh, I live way up north, I'm only down in town for school during the week. You know where Peterborough is?" - Alex.

"Oh, we'll its just that we can mail stuff out to you excetera. Phone Number?" - Him

*gave him phone number*

End Transcript.

Over all, it was successful, but a few things could have been done before to make it even better.

1. Make up an alias that you know like the back of your hand. Either carry novelty ID on you that you can use to back up your alias. For gods sake, don't carry your real ID with you at the time if you can help it, or keep the Novelty ID in a hidden pocket.

2. Rehearse your alias including mobile phone numbers, date of birth, residential address and mailing address'. It is important to be able to fire them off.

3. Don't over rehearse. If you over rehearse, you loose the natural feel of the situation. Go with the flow. Have some background stuff (eg. I'm an artist), maybe do a little research if necessary, but don't get bogged down in the "if he asks this, ill say this and if he asks this ill.....

4. Don't over emphasise. If you feel that you need to explain why you are buying the chem, don't over elaborate. If they want more info, normally they will ask for it. "I'm an artist" is sufficient, with maybe alittle about what you are going to use it for.

5. Play your audience. Make a very quick mental assessment of the type of person you are talking to. Will they be impressed by your knowledge, or is it better to let them tell you things you already know? Do they really care what you have to say, or is it better to get in and out as fast as possible.

6. Match your alias to yourself, not the other way around. If you don't look like a builder, don't pretend to be. If you do, it will be fairly obvious to the other person. Although, sometimes there are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes its so unbelievable that it is believable.

Just my view on the idea of social engineering. This post was brought about by a friend who was trying to by a volumetric flask and was told he needed to put his name on a register. I told him he was full of shit and you don't need to register shit like that, but he insisted. He does look too young to be buying shit like that.

[fiknet]

Warning.

I mentioned previously in either this thread or another one that I had discovered that the Surgi-Pak brand of cold packs in Australia contained CALAM, a substance that consists of 80% AN and 20% Limestone, this excited me as it seemed like a good OTC source for AN. Fast forward about 6-8 months and I checked back at a chemist and to my delight they stocked these packs cheaply, I immediately bought 3 after examining the packet which stated it contained CALAM and water.

I brought these home and made sure all of them contained CALAM as it is an illegal substance to possess without a license and another brand had switched to Urea. They all contained CALAM so I proceeded to carry out a water extraction of 60g in 70mls of warm water.

I put the beaker on the stove set it on high and then moved to another room and started watching TV while looking through the doorway every 30 seconds to make sure nothing was wrong. After about 20 mins I walked in to find something wasn’t right, the lights were on and the room appeared a bit foggy, I thought this was just humidity until I went closer to the beaker and noticed a sharp pungent odor and irritation to my eyes. I immediately rushed the fuming beaker outside and left it there to cool and ran inside, opened all the windows and doors , turned the air-conditioning on fan mode and waited outside for an hour and a half to get some fresh air and ventilation. It appears I filled the kitchen with ammonia gas.

So it appears that they have incorrectly labeled the cold packs as CALAM when they contain Urea.

[chemdude1999]

Probably using up old stock supplies of empty packs. They made the switch but probably had cases of packs with the old labeling left. Can't let that go to waste. :rolleyes:

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Found: Source in US for virtually pure styrene-butadiene (97% via MSDS). Available in one quart, gallon, & 5 gallon containers.

Sold as Flooring Adhesive. This DOES have some coloration additives but may be extracted quite easily.

Found in large hardware chain store. There are two types one is styrene-butadiene rubber, the other is crap adhesive. To differentiate, the SQU number is needed as the contents are listed in the MSDS only. Best to PM me for specifics so as to not destroy source (?)

[hydra]

mega, in your posts opening this thread, you listed sodium bromide and a couple other items of interest; but the list didnt' include what product and/or product-name that you found these compounds in. Do you recall? Or have you updated the list to include the product-names? That would make the list even more valuable, for sure. I need some bromine, and readily available sodium bromide would be a reasonable source for it.

thanks much

[chembio]

98% HNO3 - 20 dollars (for how much? NBK)

Oops, sorry about that! :p

The HNO3 was being sold for 20 USD a liter. (The molarity was 0.2 mol dm3, if I remember).

[nbk2000]

Hydra, you can find sodium bromide in 2oz white-plastic packets for about $3, in the pool chemical section. More specifically as a spa 'chlorinator'.

[hydra]

nbk, thanks.

I live in the hills, so -any- store is a pain in the ass 2-hour roundtrip.

On the other hand, that makes the pool/spa store or any other 'specialty' place about as 'convenient' as the Home Depot... :D


Here's a contribution to the OTC list: GRAPHITE POWDER

From a farm-implement dealer. It's called "Seed Flow Lubricant", and was around 4-5 bucks for a 1 lb jar. Pretty fine....maybe 300-400 mesh.

My intended use is for forming custom electrocatalytic electrodes; but anywhere that a fine graphite, or carbon, is needed; it ought to work.

[nbk2000]

That source of graphite is far cheaper than dry lock lube.

Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Lb-Graphite-Powder-Seed-Flow-Lubricant/dp/B000I196U6) sells it for $6.60/pound. :)

[Mauser7]

found "sikagard heavy duty concrete clean and etch" at home depot (usa) today,

phosphoric acid 15-30%
nitric acid 15-30%
water
(from the MSDS)
$16/ gallon
red liquid

[Charles Owlen Picket]

OTC "Sebacate".

In the plastique usage a "Sebacate" is used as a "plasifier-modifier" together with a "tackifier". The tackifier is generally PIB or PB1 and is easily obtainable. The "plasifier-modifier" is often butyl citrate or n-octyl phthalate, or (in the US) DOS- Di-Octal Sebacate.

Real sebactes are used as synthetic pump lubricants and are available via pump repair operations that sell pump lubricants (MSDS is a must as there are several types).

HOWEVER - the sebacate is replacable in this format via ricinoate esters which are derived from ricinoleic acid, which makes up 90% of the fatty acids from Castor oil. Ricinoate esters are much easier produced. The methyl and ethyl esters by transesterification reaction (Vogel) of castor oil and methanol/ethanol under reflux. The methyl/ethylricinoate seperates as an oily layer at the top. These plasticizers are somewhat less effective solvents for PIB (with heat) and need some up to 10% of motor oil (within their percentage) added for better properties. But they DO function as a plasifier-modifier!

The transesterification of Castor oil via methanol under reflux is a very simple and effective method of creating a viable replacement for the DOS in a plastique system.


PIB or PB1 ? It may be a better idea to start with PB1.....

Polyisobutylene (PIB) is a linear polymer of isobutylene of varying average molecular weights. This straight chain paraffinic hydrocarbon varies from a soft, tacky, viscous liquid to a tough elastomeric solid. Polyisobutylene is chemically inert and, therefore, possesses excellent resistance to oxidative and thermal degradation. It is used as a permanent flexibilizer and tackifier in pressure sensitive and hot melt adhesives. It is particularly useful where low temperature flexibility is a requirement. The straight chain hydrocarbon structure of polyisobutylene also contributes excellent moisture and barrier properties and specific adhesion to certain hard to wet surfaces (e.g., polyolefin). HOWEVER when one uses a PIB from an adhesive tape, etc - you are stuck (no pun intended) with the molecular weight of that product. There is strong reason to believe that the PIB is a custom weight to hold the powder of the HE. The product from a ready made adhesive may be too tacky to do the job effectively, leaving the home manufacturer to balance out the plastifier / tackifier. Thus making the end product too "binder heavy".

Polybutene on the other hand is a viscous, non-drying, liquid polymer, which results from the copolymerization of 1- and 2-butene with a small quantity of isobutylene. Polybutene is colorless, has little or no odor, is chemically stable and resists oxidation by light and moderate heat. Polybutene can be altered in weight; PIB can not once it is produced. -> Polybutene can in effect "turn into" PIB in use (& with a custom or tackiness).

An important characteristic in adhesive applications is polybutene’s tackiness, which increases with increased molecular weight. Polybutene acts as both a tackifier and plasticizer and is used to extend the viscosity range and to control the tack and cohesive strength level of adhesives. Polybutene is sold in a wide variety of molecular weights and the viscosity grades range from light oils to highly viscous fluids. The tubes of "bird repellent" are close to pure Polybutene (97%). They can be a more custom answer to the weight balancing of the PIB & plasticizer in use in a plastique.

[sirthomasthegreat]

I have searched this whole topic but cannot find OTC cupric nitrate. I would prefer to buy it instead of reacting to get it. But cupric oxide would be even better if that is cheaper and even more readily available.

[Shalashaska]

At the price of KNO3 for about $5, 1L 91% Isopropanol for $1 and Copper Sulfate for 20lbs for $25, I'd say you could just make your own for about $40(+gas to boil it). I'd say about 1-2 dollars a pound unless you count the money for your time.

[sirthomasthegreat]

Im assuming the Isopropanol make the Cupric Nitrate precipitate out. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Shalashaska]

One method of making Cu(NO3)2 is to heat CuSO4 and KNO3 (1 : 1.25 ratio) in boiling alchohol. I have read that 30 minutes is adequate, and around 100mL of alchohol should be used per 10g of precursors.

Have you tried searching for Copper Nitrate instead of Cupric? Cupric is like... from the 1800's.

[nbk2000]

And if you want to understand the easy methods of making basic chemicals, you'd better learn 19th century lingo like Cupric. :)

[sirthomasthegreat]

I use cupric because it is still used on chemical vials one would buy nowadays. Also cupric is 2+ and cuprous is 1+

[megalomania]

They still teach cupric and cuprous in undergrad chemistry, so it still has a place in the 21st century. It is archaic, but that is to be expected in a centuries old science. I hate them myself, there are certain words that no matter how many times you deal with them, or look them up, you can NEVER remember the definitions. Using plus 1 and plus 2 is so much easier to remember, but more cumbersome to say than cupric or cuprous. Trivial names are still retained by IUPAC rules. If everyone always used strict IUPAC nomenclature we would never remember the names of any common chemicals. Calling pharmaceuticals by their IUPAC name only would cause the deaths of millions for the confusion. Something like "viagra" just has a better ring to it...

[sirthomasthegreat]

Hahaha yeah. I like the ionic nominclature but organic gets a little crazy.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Double base smokeless powder (DBSP) can be exploited as a source for NG. Ethanol in reflux has been attempted but the yield was small & impure (appeared to be contaminated with dyes, etc). However, ethyl acetate appears to work quite well. Experiments conducted with Bullseye yielded a smooth nearly clear (faintly brown) oily substance that responded nicely when a very small drop was struck with a hammer upon an anvil.

[sv_sniper]

I am in California. This morning I went to check a local Sherwin-Williams Paints store for acetone. They quoted US$15.95 for one gallon. Just FYI.

[Dawg]

Changes in the Regulation of Iodine Crystals and Chemical Mixtures Containing Over 2.2 Percent Iodine-

8/1/07 appears to be the deadline when these 'rules' take effect-anyone wanting iodine, potassium iodide/iodate and possibly even Betadine may want to stock up now-farm and ranch supply stores are a good source here in the Northwest for iodine crystals and 7% solution-


http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2007/fr0702.htm

[sobreroHWE]

I called four local feed stores to see what they had to say about the Iodine restrictions. All seemed like enbred slack jawed fools anyway, but all four of the people I talked to seemed very confused, and had no idea what I was talking about. I will go tomorrow to see for myself.

I live in a part of the U.S plagued by meth labs, so it was especially interesting to me that they had little or no interest. Perhaps it is to prevent a mad dash to the shelves by drug crazed locals.

Not that it matters much, meth manufacture is one of the most innovative forms of clandestine chemistry. Might as well stock up now since it seems drug laws get more attention as far as changing chemical compositions in OTC items than anything else.

[sobreroHWE]

The Iodine was no problem at all:D It's nice to know they will be keeping an eye on it at least.

In reading another very old and quite dead thread, I was amazed to see how little attention the HTH/naphtha or kerosene combinations were getting.(considering how simple and purely OTC it is) I know it has been mentioned before that HTH is sold at pool supply shops, but I have only recently seen the 50 pound buckets. (now that is one large fire cracker) Anyway long story short, at www.IntheSwim.com you can get (among other things):

Chlorine- 3in tabs/powder
Bromine- bags or 50 pound bucket
HTH- 1 Lb bag or 50 pound bucket (I think 74% is their strongest)

I have not really looked around at their site for a while but I'm sure they have many more useful items. All shipped to Fake McNamely with no problem.

[megalomania]

The law will likely be enforced from the perspective of the manufacturers. When the stores go to order the next batch of iodine they will be informed the product is no longer available, but an alternative will be suggested for the same price.

I agree that clandestine chemists are the most resourceful of all chemists. They will not bee denied their honey :)

[chemdude1999]

Without naming specific large chain stores here in the midwest of the US, one can get Iodine in 5-10% strength in gallon quantities with ease. Also, DMSO and other assorted goodies are available.

Horse and agricultural stores people. Fucking goldmine of goodies. Don't ask what the restrictions are. If you do, the people behind the counter question themselves then. Just act like everything is normal.

I was able to collect potassium permanganate, potassium nitrate, DMSO, iodine solutions (gallons), acetone (gallons), toluene (gallons), methanol, sulfuric acid, isopropyl alcohol (gallons), naphtha (gallons), xylene, and MEBK (gallons) all at one store. This store is specific to the region, but analogs should be available around the country.

I, also, think I found a good brand of stump remover for potassium nitrate. Seems to be good, clean, and white. Minimal processing. PM for specifics. The more experienced members probably have there own favorites.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I know exactly what you are getting at. And it is fantastic. But all it takes is one person to blow it up with a lame question on some occasions. Rural vet sources may be accessed via web sites and catalog's...often better for the above reasons.

[Lewis]

Early's Farm and Garden

I'm not sure how widespread this chain is, but they sure have a lot of chemicals purchasable on a no-questions-asked basis. I come from Canada (Saskatchewan, specifically) and would highly recommend anyone from around here taking a look.

I've found:
-4lb bags of KNO3
-500g tubs of anhydrous KMnO4 crystals
-Bottles of H2S04, HNO3, HCl, and other acids in various concentrations
-Poisons for all kinds of animals
-Copper Sulfate
-Huge bags of NH4(NO3)*

The list goes on I'm sure. Honestly, I haven't even been able to go over all the wonderful things I can buy here.

*They don't put the ammonium nitrate out on shelves for the obvious reason that no human would be able to carry them out, but I can't imagine there's a whole lot of red tape for purchasing them. They did I believe mention smaller (50lb) sacks for sale at one time as well.

[sobreroHWE]

I found a type of drain opener I have never seen before. It is called TRILL II. It comes in a plastic bag (like Liquid fire or Rooto), and is covered with more warning labels than even bottles from the lab. It says shit like "Only for use by trained mantenance personal". It is a light red, like k3wel aid and it's only ingredient is "concentrated sulfuric acid",(Its SpGr is "1.6-1.9") and it looks pretty unbuffered. I will update when I find more out, but it is far less cloudy than Liquid Lightning, or Rooto (both almost black) and did not come in a "Hazardous Materials" packing.

[nbk2000]

Density will tell you what concentration it is.

[tmp]

I haven't had a problem finding anything I need. The local places have been
gold mines IMHO. BTW, I love Rooto H2SO4. The only brand(I'd have to
online order it now) I liked better than Rooto was Misty - about 93% strength.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I preformed a very crude experiment on Liquid Fire brand H2SO4 wherein I heated a sample of blackened material of 400ml for 2 hours @ 100C. The black material settled on the bottom and was easily filtered from the clear acid. It (the filtrate; black crap) solidified at approx 30C. This separation does not seem to occur at 80C or less. The ending material had a density of 1.85 & was water white. I have not attempted this on other brands however I was told by an employee of a company that uses H2SO4 that they sell off their surplus for just such uses as drain opener. What I was told is that often the black material is composed of solids, frequently copper oxide, soil, burnt hydrocarbons, etc.

Frequently one can buy the surplus for the price of the container from such companies!!! A plastic 30 gallon container is available for about $20. Some companies will allow the individual to cart off their surplus acid for free if they have a container but not at a level of less than 30 gallons. If a 55 gallon container is available (non-metallic) it is possible to get enough to last quite along time. This is due to the hazardous waste issue. It costs some companies money to have it shipped/taken away, etc. Only companies that have agreements with other firms that make drain opener get back any money at all for their acids. If you provide that service, some firms will let you have it for free. You will need to social engineer properly for this to be gracefully done as it will be a one time thing (unless you want to keep getting drums of acid).

[tmp]

A drum full of H2SO4 for free ? :eek: I'm drooling about it already ! I'll have
to check around in my area to see if such an arrangement can be made.
I'm glad I don't live in Tennessee. A friend of mine, who lives outside of
Memphis, told me it's illegal for merchants to sell H2SO4-based drain
cleaners to the general public.

[Rbick]

Social engineering has definatley played a major role in aquiring chemicals. In my state, I go through a chemical supplier who has excellent prices on chemicals. $35 for 2.5L ACS grade 70% HNO3 :cool:. I'm too busy to be distilling my own nitric. They supposedly only sell to buisnesses though... Even with over the counter materials, I recall having to make up a story why I needed the things I was purchasing at the hardware store to the clerk. Not because it was illegal, but because if I said "Mind your own buisness", it would arouse suspicion and people would be watching me.

Thanks for the method on purifying the drain cleaner. Considering you got about 1.84 density, and that is the density of 100% Sulfuric, I'd say you did a great job. I just got 2.5L ACS reagent Sulfuric from my supplier, so I'm going nitration crazy (actually have some NG going right now), but I will definatley be trying the method of purifying the drain cleaner in the future.

[ex1ge]

For anyone in England, Wilkinson's is a great source for NaClO3, regular over the counter 47% NaClO3 + 53% fire dampeners (non-NaCl as far as I can tell, reactions I have attempted using this without removing the dampeners have failed, ie. double displacement), sold as "Sodium Chlorate Weedkiller" for £1.89 per Kilogram in the Gardening Care section.
Possibly worth mentioning also is a fairly easy to get hold of chemical KCl, sold as "Losalt" for £0.88 per 350g at 66% KCl, which can be used to make the NaClO3 into KClO3.

+++++++++++

UTFSE (Google it if you don't know what it means) would reveal the exact nature of your weed-killer failing to work, and how to sort it out. :rolleyes:

Sorry if I didn't make it clear, I wasn't asking a question, I said when I attempted it without removing them resulted in a failure, not that I didn't know how, just so anybody in the future knows that if they buy it from there, purification is required.

[Shadowmartyr]

Living in the Midwest, I have found a great supply of chemicals in farming/veterinary shops, however I also have listed some things found in the local ACE hardware store and Wal-Mart.

MFA Supply Company
Potassium Nitrate --50lb bag $15
Pure Ammonium Nitrate --50lb bag $25
Sulpher --25lb bags $30
Aluminum Powder --5lb cans $15
Magnesium --5lb cans $15

ACE Hardware store
Methyl ethyl ketone --Paint stripper section
Acetone --Paint Stripper section
Hydrochloric Acid --Paint Stripper Section
Sulfuric Acid --In the drain opener-cleaner section under the name
brand name "Liquid Fire" and its like a 94-96% concentration, good stuff
800ml for $7, bigger bottles can be bought
Sulpher/AN/PN mix --Sold as fertilizer but has some junk chemicals thrown in
Formaldahyde
Ammonia Hydroxide solution

Walmart
3% Hydrogen Peroxide --Found in the medical section 500ml for 56 cents
(1 liter bottles can be bought but it might arouse suspicion if your younger..)
Pure Ammonium Nitrate (prilled) --Sold as "Cold Packs" in the medical section
Citric Acid --Sold as a preserver for canning tomatoes
Acetyl salicylic acid --Aspirin, must be purified though.
Cellulose --Sold as 100% cotton wipes in the medical section
Nitrocellulose --Any guage of shotgun shells, all modern shot shells contain smokeless nitrocellulose instead of black powder.
Ammonia hydroxide solution --In the household cleaning section, like 30% concentration of ammonia.
Steel wool --Used in Iron oxide synths, sold as steel wool pads,
Formaldehyde
Paraformaldehyde
Acetone --Paint stripper
Hydrochloric Acid --Paint stripper

-And of course your basic things also found in Wal-mart, if you don't
know what these are or where you find them you shouldn't be here.
Starch
Powdered Sugar
Charcoal
Sodium Bicarbonate

[totenkov]

Maybe I just haven't come across this yet, but under what name (or product) is formaldehyde sold as? And at what concentration? Is it some kind of cleaning product or sanitizer?

[nbk2000]

Gold mining suppliers have a lot of good chemicals, and cheap too. :)

http://www.abprospecting.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/pg14a.jpg

[totenkov]

Nice find NBK! I may have to crack out the yellow pages :)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Maybe I just haven't come across this yet, but under what name (or product) is formaldehyde sold as?

When looking for many chemicals in common practice; first look for the name, such as: "FORM_____" in the band or description. However the trimer of formaldehyde is sold as a solid as a camping fuel. Formaldehyde is used as a preservative in science, taxidermy, etc. It is used in 35-7% concentration most often.

[nbk2000]

Campa-Chem dry chemical toilet disinfectant is paraformaldehyde, which reverts to formaldehyde in water, and is found in the RV/Boating section of Wal-Mart

[megalomania]

Since doing the original survey several years ago many products have come and go, prices have changed, and there are different stores. I was thinking of making another stab and doing a more comprehensive survey.

A few things stop me from doing this, primarily because I was hassled by store employees mercilessly while doing this the first time. I was threatened, intimidated, thrown out of 3 stores, and spied on like a negro shoplifter…

If I do this again I want to do it high tech. No wandering around writing everything down (that’s what pisses the shop keeps off). I have been thinking about a few options to make my survey not only efficient (I write tediously slow, it takes a minimum of 6 hours per store), but clandestine as well.

The store employees universally accused me of being a competitor trying to get their prices. They didn’t believe me when I told the truth because the truth sounds unlikely to people who do not know chemicals. The ones that didn’t act hostile gave me a “personal escort,” which I find unnerving when I am shopping. I think only Home Depot never bothered me, probably because a man wandering around for hours writing things down in that store is not so out of place. The grocery stores also never made a peep.

It is the small stores that really give you a hard time, and they usually have the best chemical deals. If you are the only customer they watch you like a hawk, and when they see you writing things they get pissy.

I have ruminated for years how I could do things better. There is nothing illegal with writing down prices, every deal conscious consumer should, but I can see how they would be threatened by someone systematically copying down the details of dozens of items. I am afraid now they would be worried if someone paid too much attention to chemicals. They do have the right to refuse you service and give you the bums rush.

What to do? Shall I use a voice recorder, and transcribe the details later. Perhaps a digital camera (small, no flash) could be of great benefit to keep a record of the item. A small spy cam to video record all of the items might be a wonderful option. I figured if I was a competitor I would just buy all the products I wanted prices of and return them. I don’t have the money to risk doing this if something goes wrong on a return, nor do I want to be blacklisted from returning items (Wal Mart does this if you return too much).

If I had to do this again I might break up my survey by spending only a limited amount of time in any store, especially the small ones. Some specialty stores I would like to visit are quite far flung though making return trips difficult.

I like the video idea because I could pull stills of the product images to better show people what the products look like. I just have to handle the products and get close ups of the ingredients, product label, and price. This also sounds like it might be a bit expensive. I don’t suppose anyone can recommend any small video camera systems, in color preferably?

[ChippedHammer]

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3962
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6684

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Hell, I'll do it with you. I'll opt for the voice recorder and a mess of MSDS prints from larger store's web sites (ACE, etc). But you realize that the demographics of an area influences what is stocked to such an extent that I may be able to turn up nitrates, etc where someone in Kalifornia or ILL-in-noise won't [in the same store]. The more rural you get the better for chemicals it seems.

I was never approached to any real extent when I was doing a bit of investigating. When once, I was approached and the young fellow asked, "may I help you?" I answered, "Yes, you can: I need a breakdown of the chemicals utilized in various retail items." "I need to know not only the chemical make-up of the article but the percentage of that chemical."
It was "work" so the low-functioning shit-for-brains made every excuse to leave.

You see in my neck of the woods we have MEXICANS. And most items have a Spanish translation instead of the composition written on the packaging. Therefore I have to defer to the MSDS. But that gives me a greater insight to the material often enough times.

What's more if I am lucky enough to get some individual from "south of the boarder" trying to "help me" they soon retire as the gringo uses verbiage that is a wee bit too difficult to translate into "Spanglish".
...."All thoos beeg names of the chemeecals....ees stupeed, dude"......
It's a joy. But it's not too much of a problem, however.

[Shadowmartyr]

I don’t suppose anyone can recommend any small video camera systems, in color preferably?

I have a friend that works in electronics and I asked him the very same thing but for a different purpose. Most of the ones he showed me are very small and can be hidden in pieces of clothing easily. However ones that small are digital and record the video, and can later be downloaded off the camera using a simple USB. The bad side is these small cameras can get pretty expensive, there are cheap ones out there but they lack in quality video and aren't built very well.

If you have a camera phone of any kind I'd just use that, it's as good as anything and I see people in stores take pictures of items with there phones all the time, so I don't think you would look out of place.

[Shadowmartyr]

Has anyone been able to find Erythritol at walmart as a sugar substitute? I can't seem to find this anywhere but online. I guess I'll find out tommorow, I'll post the findings. =)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

You MAY be able to go to a heath food store chain that has the ability to order items that are REQUESTED like GNC and simply ask. You are diabetic and really only like the taste of ______ brand sugar substitute. It might be best to actually have a brand name and then if they can't get it use the generic name as it indicates a non-reagent focus / brand loyalty, typical of a consumer, etc. I actually HAVE seen it sold in one small health food store but it was non-typical. Mostly I see inositol, mannitol & xzylitol (sp?).

[Shadowmartyr]

Has anyone been able to find Erythritol at walmart as a sugar substitute? I can't seem to find this anywhere but online. I guess I'll find out tomorrow, I'll post the findings. =)

Well my Walmart Super-center doesn't carry Erythritol sugar substitute, they were all Xylitol based products. Unfortunately there are no chain health food stores around; so it looks as if I am going to have to order it off of E-bay or somewhere.

[SilverMatch]

I've compiled a list of things you can acquire (read: steal) at a Canadian hardware retailer, Home Hardware Ltd.

Acetone:
1620776 3.8L
1620785 18.9L

Aluminium chlorohydrate:
7158498 30-60%, 1L

Aluminium sulfate:
7158363 1 kg
7158577 1 kg

Ammonia:
4521716

Benzalkonium chloride:
7158210 15-20%, 4L

Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin:
7158390 1.8 kg
7158416 13 kg

Calcium carbonate:
4521404

Calcium chloride:
7158103 4 kg

Calcium hydroxide:
3226208

Calcium hypochlorite:
7158087 1 kg

Cyanuric acid:
7158586 1 kg

Dichloromethane:
1650109 < 95%, 20L
1650181 < 95%, 1L
1650225 < 90%, 3.8L

Ethylene glycol:
8612209 4L
8612316 9.5L
8612334 10L
8612165 19L

Hydrochloric acid:
1620847 31%, 4L

Hydroxyethane(1,1-diylbisphosphonic acid):
7158684 15-40%, 1L

Methanol:
1620053 4L

Phosphonic acid:
7158951 10-30%, 1L

Potassium peroxymonosulfate:
7158158 1.3 kg
7158470 7 kg

Sodium bromide:
7158817 30-60%, 1L

Sodium carbonate:
7158318 2 kg

Sodium dichloroisocyanurate:
7158014

Sodium bisulfate:
7158256 3 kg

Sodium hydroxide:
3226413 38 oz
3226431 3 kg

Sodium hypochlorite:
4527186 12%
7158595 10-30%

Sulfuric acid:
4520067 95%
4520129 95%

Tetrahydrofuran:
3255952

Toluene:
1620712 1L

Trichloroisocyanuric acid:
7158050
7158069
7158176 7 kg
7158452 4 kg

Trisodium phosphate:
1620188 2 kg


The numbers are the Home Hardware item codes used to identify different products. Not all of the products are useful, but I just listed most of the ones that contained pure chemicals. Concentrations are 100% (or close to) unless otherwise specified. (There are a few exceptions, for example I wasn't able to figure out what the conc. of the ammonia was, although it obviously isn't 100% - probably closer to 10)

If anyone on this site actually comes from Canada, I might be making a list of chemicals available at Rona (another Canadian hardware store), and perhaps the Canadian version of Home Depot as well (I'm not sure if it is different from the US chain?).

Off the top of my head Rona sells large quantities of Kerosene, Stoddard solvent, Naptha, Anhydrous Calcium chloride, Epsom salts, Oxygen welding tanks (the small ones), etc.

There is also a company called Nature's Fair which sells 1 L bottles of 35% Hydrogen Peroxide.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

That's a good list! Good technique using the SKU numbers for only the fairly pure materials. ...Makes getting what you need, simple. I don't live in Canada, but if I did that type of list is a damn good start.

[Ratman2050]

@ Megolomania

That's peculiar that they won't let you write down prices/chemicals after you told the truth? I'm wondering now, what was the truth :P? If you said you were a PhD or a Chemist I'm sure they would have let you continue, not sure what the reaction would be after telling them you moderate a Weapons and Explosives forums. But anyways, it's for academic study, they don't have to be pricks about it, it's just giving them more business for those chemicals ordinary people every buy if you ask me.

Anyways, I wouldn't recommend using any electronic device such as audio/video since that may be even more tedious. I guess memory is probably the best way, but overall I appreciate you taking the time to help avid chemists like us in our help.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Just a suggestion however, but I would NEVER let it be known publicly that you are looking for a source of OTC chemicals for any reason what so ever. We have lost so many sources [and have so many laws pending that would further limit access to same] that any public knowledge that such things are available, will have a very deleterious effect both politically and socially. Personally, I just ask to see the MSDS & only supply a "reason" if asked pointedly.

In the USA there are politicians that would out-right ban such chemicals as sodium bicarbonate (no bullshit: some Democrat would ban baking soda). We have had a fuck-wit attempt to ban ammonium & potassium nitrate...the list goes on and on. Many people think this starts from drug cooks; and it may, but the effect is the same on any level of legitimate amateur science.

No matter your age, remember that you are essentially reflecting the public perception of amateur science in most everything you may do. It's little exaggeration that blowing up shit and getting caught is perhaps the worst thing that you can do. Not simply from a "trouble" standpoint.....that's the least of it. The re-percussions of negative stereotypes will eventually limit access to most every enjoyable pastime via emotional reaction to perceived threats. While it may seem that I am going overboard on this; I honestly believe I am not. The "joke" you play out on some hyper-fearful fucktard may come back to bite everyone in the ass via laws designed simply to get someone "browny points" with their electorate. It's always "safe" to politically hammer inanimate objects.

Anyhow - I have long heard from folks in various countries outside the USA that they had a tough time finding Erythritol. Do a search on the word zsweet, and you'll have a source (until it gets burned down). Which brings up another point. If you should have need of a certain item and have a source for it. Obtain a supply while it's available. Do not assume that it will be there forever. Some asshat will eventually screw things up; buy a kg and save it - so get it while it's hot.

[Emil]

Good point there Charles.

I think it worries us all to a certain point about the availability of our chemical supplies. More countries have more of a worry than others, and alot of us have already felt a certain amount of pressure.

I personally don't support publicly naming our sources. Of course it helps for the hobbyists to find a starting point for their supplies, but it also gives people who don't understand our hobby (politicians and people in high places just dying to be the next one to ban a material) a very good list of companies that should be hassled, restricted or possibly even shut down because of the goods they supply.

9 times out of 10 a thorough search of the wonderful digital world will come up with results where you can obtain what you need anyway.

We all know eventually the days of not being able to obtain anything are coming, in this pathetic world we live in, they are only going to try and limit more and more. They are horrible times we live in, as the governments strive for total control over every aspect of society and human nature.
However, they should remember.. There is only so far you can push a man, Once he's cornered, you can guarentee he's going to start pushing back.

[totenkov]

The saddest thing I have found is everything seems to be boiled down to the lowest common denominator, so ever idiot on the planet can use the product. You cannot find ANY OTC chem that has any decent concentration or purity in the big hardware stores were I am. Everything has ten or twelve different ingredients (such as drain opening products, solvents and cleaners). Rendering the product useless for our less than ligitimate persuits ;).

What you need to do is avoid all the huge "Do it yourself" home improvment stores and start checking out the little mom and pop hardware. These stores still carry many things that you cannot find anymore or just illegal to sell :). These kinds of places don't see much action except the odd soccer mom running in from her Lincoln Navigator to get a door hinge.

I do admit however that I am very fortunate to live in an area were most every chem I need is still avaliable in one way or another. Sometimes just dig deeper. If you fast on your feet try the local pharmacy, you'd be amazed at the chem they hand over to me marked danger! Corrosive, strong oxidizer, causes burns, will explode when mixed with fuels etc. :)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Dealing with the OTC issue I try to encourage people here to PM when asking pointed questions. I (personally) am more than happy to share what I have found with established members. Most all of you fellows can PM me about items and I will do my level best to give you a "head's up" on some outrageously fine sources. This one of the things NBK and I shared quite a bit. However I have posted damn fine sources for sebicates, SBR, azide, and metal powders.
So please search this & one or two other threads 1st. But if you really can't fine it ask: & when you find it, hoard it! ....You may never have the change to get it again.

I once went out of my way to narrow the exact vehicle air-bag inflater's for someone who wanted to develop a supply of NaN3 (long story). With the right vehicle, some patience with saturating the pellets, & re-crystallization - just a couple of inflater units will yield about a pound. ....That's worth keeping!

NBK told me once of a source of mercury, that with some hassle, would yield very large amounts. ...Again, worth keeping!
TTBoMK his latest OTC thing that he wanted, was to narrow a source of As. His thoughts at the time were insecticide. I probably will try to find a source just for old time sake. I actually found a source of Se, but it's not too cheap. Collecting elements is actually sort of fun.

Remember, however, that items that drug cooks use will be watched big-time. P (any type) or Iodine will attract unwanted attention. And those guys have done a great deal of hunting to find THEIR "money-making precursor elements". It's not a hobby with them. Although they are very creative, they have burned down most every common source and those are now very bad news to investigate.

*** I wanted to edit in something I had not mentioned (but some folks may know)....some very expensive chemicals are available now via the newer design batteries! I may just edit up a list of all the stuff one may find from rechargeable, long-life batteries. I'm not talking about manganese dioxide or zinc here but expensive chemicals. Example: Silver Oxide if purchased can cost as much as silver nitrate but if salvaged from a newer design rechargeable battery would be pennies on the dollar.

[AcMav]

I recently visited the local Lowes hardware store and got no hassle, no one even looked my way as I sat there cataloging the inventory on my phone, there Solvent section was very well stocked surprisingly. I left with a gallon of Acetone (For legitimate reasons, I made a mess with paint) for 13.98 however there were other options as listed below:

Acetone (Quart and Gallon)
Toluene (Gallon)
M.E.K (Gallon)
Xylene (Gallon)
Denatured Alcohol - Methanol (Gallon and Quart)
Muriatic Acid - HCL (Gallon)
Kerosene (Gallon)

On the topic of Erythritol I've been looking myself for a source of this and have yet to find anything. I've checked the local supermarkets and the local GNC without avail. Next I'll be making a trip to the local Wild Market, a health specialty food store, which should have it. If you're having trouble finding a store near you, Try this link to a producer of Erythritol, they have a distributor finder which helped me find this store. http://www.nowfoods.com/index.php?cat_id=190 . I Don't guarantee that they'll have Erythritol, but the higher the number of products carried, the better the chances. It's not a direct local source, but it might help steer you in the right direction.

[Darkover]

I've found Erythritol easily at (oddly) small chain health food stores. GNC and the big guys don't carry it, grabbed the phone book and the very first mom and pop store had it for 16 bucks a pound. Same brand (NOWFoods) as above http://www.nowfoods.com/index.php?action=itemdetail&item_id=42518.

In the PRC (peoples republic of Canada), AN can no longer be had, even from a long oft shopped hydroponics store. Calcium nitrate has taken its place, average 50 bucks for 25 kilos or 5 kilos for 20 bucks.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There is a little trick that works quite often:background knowledge. If you know exactly what crop needs a soil adjustment that coincides with ammonium nitrate in your area of the country and what time of year that needs to be implemented you will not appear - as some charmer trying to scam.

The same is engendered with nitromethane. If you know just what type of motor needs that type of fuel enhancement and have some working knowledge of that & a good story, you will not be the red light that lights up the store heroism. ...NEVER volunteer a story. If asked: explain with confidence & in a relaxed manner.

It takes as long to read these words of wisdom as it does to do a search and find that material; write it down and get a good feel for what you might say if ever asked. A little preparation will not only save embarrassment but will go a long way to keeping a source open.

The reason I am saying this is that sources have dried up quite a bit. Some time back, some guys were doing some social engineering to get free stuff via samples. They posted their milieu and were copied by asshats who fucked the whole galaxy up for others.... If YOU have a good technique, PM it to an interested person (LIKE ME!). Most people like to share and that's a good thing but remember some people will & can fuck up a wet-dream.

I'm am NOT addressing this to any one person, but as a generality. If you have a good source; post that fact and ask folks to PM you. I am as guilty of this as anyone - Please don't post a good source if you feel it could get burned.

Generally sources for things like sweeteners on the 'net don't get burned because they are not in personal contact with the buyer. But a good example would be a feed store that carries AN. You have a great story how you are growing xxxx and your soil ph is such & such and how since we have a window at such a month for soil enhancement, you need 2 bags for x/y acres.
And along comes kid ke3L who just fucks the thing up badly and just close enough to your line that the source now is very wary.... he now realized that the product may be used for something inappropriate and he also is angry that he might have been fooled..... not only is the source burned down but now he's pissed enough to get even with the imagined slight.... very bad scene.

I bring this up because it just happened to me from fuck-tards being brazened and not caring. A good source is now lost to me. But it was actually MY fault for being public about it.

Please think this through; let's preserve our sources.

[a3990918]

@ Megolomania

That's peculiar that they won't let you write down prices/chemicals after you told the truth?

Wal-Mart is particularly bad about this, they believe you are doing consumer research for their competition and as such have the right to remove you from the store. My ex is a manager for Wal-Mart and she explained all this to me after I was asked to leave a Wal-mart one time for checking prices and such, albeit I was guilty of doing this for another company.:rolleyes:

[The Grand Pooh-Bah]

Residential Gas & Electric water heater tanks have an Anode Rod made of Magnesium. In some locals the plumbers have to remove these prior to installation due to it having adverse effects on the water. If you live in such an area it is very likely your local plumbing contractor just throws these new rods away.

[ChippedHammer]

Bunnings now stock White Spirit, Xylene and sodium hydroxide in their paint section.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

I just found 27% H2O2 at "Ocean State Job Lot" for $9 a gallon.

[Intrinsic]

I have an couple of OTC sources of erythritol in the US. At $8.99 for 8oz it's a bit expensive, but it is a real off the shelf source, not from the internet or mail order.

If you're interested I would be happy to share with some of the more established members, feel free to PM me.

[Thermiteisfun]

http://lemishine.com/

462g bottles of 99% citric acid anyone?

any takers?

in the Dish cleanser isle at my walmart

Well I was somewhat uncertain as the the actual composition for the "lemishine" so I emailed them for an MSDS and got this

Boiling point: N/A
Vapor pressure (mmHg at 20 C): N/A
Vapor density (air = 1): N/A
Specific gravity (water = 1): 1.542
Melting point: 140-153 deg C
Evap rate (butyl acetate = 1): N/A
Solubility in water (25 C): 209 g / 100 ml water
Physical state: Solid
Color: Off-white to white powder
Odor: Lemon-like
HMIS rating (0 – 4): Health = 1; Fire = 0; Reactivity = 0
NFPA rating (0 – 4): Health = 1; Fire = 0; Reactivity = 0

Lower flammable limit (LFL): 0.28 – 2.3 kg/m3 (dust)

this part really gets me :D

The specific chemical identities of the ingredients of this mixture
are considered by Envirocon Technologies, Inc., to be Trade
Secrets and are withheld in accordance with the provisions of
1910.1200 of title 29 of the Code of Federal Regulations

[Cobalt.45]

Tractor Supply Company has 99% KNO3 (1% calcium stearate) stump remover. They're now in >40 states, so one may be near you.

Look for "Gordon's Stump Remover" (was originally packaged as "Acme") in the herbicide aisle. Comes as very small, white prills.

MSDS: http://pbigordon.com/pdfs/StumpRemover-MSDS.pdf

[Cobalt.45]

462g bottles of 99% citric acid anyone?

I've yet to receive a response from thermite in re this (only been a couple days), so I'm putting it out there for anyone who may be able to shed some light on the subject before any hexamine gets wasted (although it may still work for, well, you know).

Nowhere on the MSDS is the percentage of citric acid stated. Where does the quoted percentage (99%) of citric acid come from?

The MSDS density doesn't match pure citric acid, unless I'm mistaken. Stated in MSDS, 1.542 g/cm³; should be 1.665 g/cm³.
MSDS states solubility as 209g/100ml water @ 25 deg. C. Elsewhere sited as 133g/100ml @ 20 deg. C, but the extra 5 deg. C may account for that difference.
Melting point in MSDS is a wide 140-153 deg. C, whereas citric acid has a melting point of 153 deg. C. This may point to adulteration, not a 99% pure chemical.

The bottle I received says: "Made with: real fruit acids, natural citrus oils, fragrance."

Logic dictates that the ingredients other than "real fruit acids" (presumed to be citric acid, although there are >30 different acids associated w/fruit; see http://www.dionex.com/en-us/webdocs/4094_AN143_V19.pdf), i.e. oils and fragrance, could amount to >1%. I hope I'm wrong.

BTW, the containers on the shelves are now 15 oz. (425g).

[thelasttrueone]

If one were to look at a bike shop, one might find small 14 oz canisters of 90% O2 10% N2. These are made for ingestion so they will be very pure. I don't think they are all that expensive, this could be very useful for nitric purification.

[Alexires]

thelasttrueone - Perhaps you mean inhalation? I don't like the thought of ingesting 14oz steel canisters.

[Cobalt.45]

Available for $10.96/lb. including S&H. Non-eBay source.

About 20% less than a source nbk mentioned 5 years ago. THAT doesn't happen very often!

[Hinckleyforpresident]

If one were to look at a bike shop, one might find small 14 oz canisters of 90% O2 10% N2. These are made for ingestion so they will be very pure. I don't think they are all that expensive, this could be very useful for nitric purification.

Just out of curiosity, but why would a bike shop sell oxygen tanks for breathing? You sure it's not mostly nitrogen meant to fill tires? Maybe it's just a mighty high altitude bike shop :p.

[-=HeX=-]

Just out of curiosity, but why would a bike shop sell oxygen tanks for breathing? You sure it's not mostly nitrogen meant to fill tires? Maybe it's just a mighty high altitude bike shop :p.

Maybe he means Nitrous Oxide? But then again, the percentages are out. And I cant even shove a 12 gram CO2 cart in my mouth (I was bored today) so... God help the dolt who attempts ingestion.

Over here the generic brands of drain opener in supermarkets are 99% NaOH. In E. Leclerc in France, on the hardware - Painting/ Cleaning stuff section and gardening section, I believe, I found the following:

27% HCl
23% HCl
Acetone
Calcium Hypochlorite
Hydrogen Peroxide 7.5%
90% Ethanol
Turpentine
5% n-Hexane
Distilled Water
300 mesh Al powder (sphereical)
Iron Oxide (Red) powder for dying concrete/ plaster
Sodium Chlorate 60% weedkiller
99% KNO3 Stump remover
Potassium Chloride in 1lb bags
and 70% DCM (DiChloroMethane) bottles.

All that in one store, and the next aisle was packed with fireworks. It was a good holiday!

Time permitting, soon I shall write up the OTC lead azide procedure, once I do it with photos.

[thelasttrueone]

Damn you guys are funny. No, these small canisters are placed in a little gun, which the user fires into his mouth to get a "boost". Yes I know, ridiculous. The employee there and I had a good laugh about it as I inwardly jumped for joy. The contents are most assuredly 90% O2 10% N2

[Cobalt.45]

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/list?tbl=TblChemicals&alpha=A

This database allows a search for hundreds of specific chemicals then links you to those household products that contain the targeted chemical.

The listings contain the percentage contained in the product in some cases.

SEARCH OPTIONS:
Ingredients (chemicals)
Products Names
Types of Products
Manufacturers

Edit:Spectracide brand stump remover is 100% KNO3.

[Cobalt.45]

An ordinary new incandescent bulb will provide 2, ~4" pieces of .008"- .015" (depending on wattage and brand) high-temp, low resistance, high-Ni content wire (weakly magnetic).

There's a "fuse" that's built into the base to protect from current surge when the filament fails, so a blown bulb will often have one leg burned in two.

BTW, a new filament won't stretch beyond ~2x its coiled length before breaking, and is generally quite fragile.:(

[Cobalt.45]

Magnesium from VW engines (From xetap in the APC Forum):

LawnBoy (w/OMC-type 2-stroke engine) used Mg decks up 'till about 1980, Al and then steel after that.

Here's TMI for sourcing Mg from Bug cases (thanks to ukwelder.com):

All Type 1 engines had magnesium cases for both the engine and gearbox. Engine wise, some were AS41, and others AS21. I'm not sure what alloy the gearboxes were.

The type 1 engine was used in all Beetles, Karmann Ghia's, all air cooled Type 2's (buses) and Type 3's (Fastback, Squareback, Notchback). The Type 4 (411, 412, Variant, etc) engine was a kind of 'big block' air cooled VW engine, basically the same design as the type 1, but with everything strengthened. The strengthening included switching to an aluminium engine case.

The last magnesium engine cases were used in about 1982 in European built VW's, and the gearboxes remained magnesium until the rear engined buses ended production in 1990 (2WD) / 1992 (4WD). New magnesium type 1 engine cases are still made in Brazil / Mexico, for service replacement / aftermarket, as the air cooled engines went out of production a couple of years ago.

Citric Acid from Lemishine automatic dishwasher cleaner:
As for Lemishine being "99% citric acid", that was just a guess on the OP's part in an earlier thread, this is not info from the MSDS or the company.

Lemishine's supposed to work for a synth that involves hexamine, but I have not tried it.

Another less-than-pure source of citric acid that is totally OTC, is unsweetened Kool-Aid.:) Citric acid is the first listed ingredient, meaning it's the largest percentage ingredient, followed by calcium phosphate, salt, maltodextrin, etc. This info is from "Pink Lemonade" flavor.

[Cobalt.45]

This is a LONG list of materials, that have an MSDS, used by the defense/aerospace company Lockheed/Martin: http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:2iMv25_MLwMJ:www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/aeronautics/materialmanagement_tc/aml_021308.xls+ZEP+MSDS+0878&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

Unfortunately the list is alphabetized by manufacturer, not material.

Example: 41 100392 ADCO PRODUCTS AP-77 BUTYL RUBBER SEALANT N/A
41 is just the number of the list. "100392" is the MSDS number, then manufacurer, material name followed by the product code- in this case "N/A".

Could be copied to Word, then individual words could be searched for, other workarounds as time and desire permits to find the item you want the manufacturer for.

[Alexires]

Has been reordered alphabetically according to product.

It isn't perfect, but is better than nothing...

[DetaDude]

It sounds like this is the correct thread for this info.

Wil-Mad lab glass is now carrying a really neat Teflon molded sleeve for TS joints.
It is semi-rigid with a collar and is the absolute berries for vacuum sealing TS joints, no more wrapping with Teflon tape, or fumbling around with those wimpy thin sleeves, the only pinch is the price, approx.$9.95 for 24/40 (each).

Found citric acid (100%) in the home canning isle of my local supermarket it is produced by Ball the aerospace / mason jar people. This item was also on the shelf at a near-by Fred Meyer Store (now owned by Kroger).

Hope this is of help to someone

[ChippedHammer]

I may have a good supplier of AR and LR grade chemicals in Australia, not your typical business. PM me if your interested (If I haven't heard of you before don't bother)