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brain
Linguist Extraordinaire
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| Joined: 08 Mar 2005 |
| Posts: 143 |
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2405.16 Points
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meme
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| Joined: 10 Mar 2005 |
| Posts: 23 |
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8.00 Points
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The dietary erstrictions with harmine are overstated
Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:04 am |
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Harmine is not as selective for tyramine as once thought, and the dietary restrictions are nowhere near as stringent as stated.
However, also remember that "shrooms" can mean thousands of different mushrooms with different pharmacologies, and I'm not even thinking about the non-psilocin varieties! It is reasonable to think that there might be speicies containing psilocin where MAO inhibition is undesirible due to other alkaloids in the fungus.
A trip over to ayahuasca.com's forums might bring forth many actual reports of peperoni pizza before harmine/hamaline. |
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moclobemide
Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am |
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I will suggest using Moclobemide (trade name Aurorix) instead of harmaline. I hate harmala seeds; they are damn bitter and I vomit every time. Aurorix is serotonin selective MAOI and there is no dietary restrictions when using it. In my country it can be bought almost freely. It is short acting, few hours, and you will appreciate this in case you have taken more DMT than you intended  Aurorix + 100 mg DMT orally is the maddest trip I have had. |
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Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:32 am |
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Methlynedioxy: What's the active period of Moclobemide? (if you know off hand) Time to peak effect?
To the poster: Regarding dietary restrictions, those are primarily in place for longer lasting MAOI's.....eg, most of the pharmacuticals.
Rue and harmala are quickly eliminated, and would fit your purposes better (and with less restriction on diet)
Erowid has a goodly amount of info, as per normal. |
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methyl_ethyl
Riedel De Haen
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| Joined: 18 Feb 2005 |
| Posts: 107 |
| Location: Estonia |
7200.76 Points
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Moclobemide
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:32 am |
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| nyarlothotep wrote: |
Methlynedioxy: What's the active period of Moclobemide? (if you know off hand) Time to peak effect?
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Moclobemide:
~1-2 hours to peak concentration after oral administration with a half life spanning the range of ~1-3 hours.
Moclobemide is considered an RIMA (Reversible Inhibitor of MAO-A).
It appears as it does not increase tyramine sensitivity, however I would not suggest consuming a wheel of aged cheese directly after dosage  .
I also would not suggest the use of Moclobemide if you are presently taking any SSRI's, or TCA's, as these are contraindicated, this is not a complete list by far but this is what I recall off hand.
much_love
methyl_ethyl |
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Vitus
Psychoscientist
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| Joined: 19 Apr 2005 |
| Posts: 72 |
| Location: Dunwich |
2608.18 Points
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which shrooms?
Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:48 am |
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Brain:
What species of mushrooms did you ingest along with the harmaline?
From my experience psilocybe semilanceata tends to give a different kind of experience than psilocybe cubensis, either taken alone or combined with harmaline.
It's hard to describe but I'd say a medium dose of ps. semilanceata in this combination is more potent than a medium dose of ps. cubensis.
I always chalked it up to the fact that ps. semilanceata also contains modest levels of baeocystin (4-phosphoryloxy-N-methyltryptamine), which dr. Jochen Gartz proved also is active and similar to psilocybin in effects not so long ago. |
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nubee
Master Archiver
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| Joined: 18 Feb 2005 |
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18579.78 Points
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Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:58 am |
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| extracting the harmaline/harmine out of the seeds is the way to go im told, 200-300mg of the salt is good. mix that with 5 grams dried cubensis or whatever takes your dandy and hang-out... |
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IndoleAmine
Dreamreader Deluxe
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| Joined: 09 Feb 2005 |
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| Location: Bahamas |
18717.10 Points
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Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:45 pm |
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IME semilanceata shrooms are more "mystic" and a heavier trip in some way, compared to cubensis. I always thought it was just the different ratios of psilocine to psilocybine in these two species...
5 g good dried semilanceata + harmaline is balls to the wall, pretty much... (almost too much for me!  )
(btw nicotine is said to be an RIMA too...  ) |
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Vitus
Psychoscientist
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| Joined: 19 Apr 2005 |
| Posts: 72 |
| Location: Dunwich |
2608.18 Points
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Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:58 pm |
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| Quote: |
extracting the harmaline/harmine out of the seeds is the way to go im told, 200-300mg of the salt is good. mix that with 5 grams dried cubensis or whatever takes your dandy and hang-out...
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Yup, I used to make an infusion of 3-4 gr of harmala seeds in 1:2 lemon juice/water. The smell and taste reminds of vomit, and it isn't so friendly to the stomach either, but it always served its purpose. The extract is a god's gift compared to that
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5 g good dried semilanceata + harmaline is balls to the wall, pretty much... (almost too much for me! )
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Goddamn!! That is a huge dose! For me even a gram of semi's in combination with harmaline is already quite something
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ME semilanceata shrooms are more "mystic" and a heavier trip in some way, compared to cubensis. I always thought it was just the different ratios of psilocine to psilocybine in these two species...
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I agree with that description, but I doubt that it is the difference in ratio. This is all speculation of course because we never know exactly how much psilocybin was ingested, yet ps. semilanceata however is much more consistent in its levels of active compounds, average is 1% psilocybin and 0.2% baeocystin, whereas ps. cubensis fluctuates a lot but generally tends to be 2 to 3 times less potent than the semilanceata.
(http://www.zauberpilz.com/indol_extract_analysis.htm)
Another issue that supports the baeocystin hypothesis, is the fact that Gartz found a consistent 2:1 ratio of psilocybin:baeocystin in Inocybe aeruginascens, compared to ps. semilanceata which generally has a 5:1 ratio.
He reported:
"In 1965 J. FERENCZ found a new Inocybe species in Hungary. M. BABOS described these blueing mushrooms as Inocybe aeruginascens BABOS in 1968 (figure 6). Since 1980 I. aeruginascens has caused over 20 accidental hallucinogenic poisonings in East Germany because of some similarities with edible mushrooms like Marasmius oreades (Bolt.: Fr.) Fr. (9).
In all of these cases only euphoric experiences with hallucinations and illusions were reported. The mushrooms contained relative constant amounts of psilocybin, baeocystin and in some cases also tryptophan (table 3).
A new indole derivative, which I called aeruginascin, with a still unknown structure was also detected in this species (15-17). We found only traces of psilocin in a few mushrooms but no muscarin at all."
(http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/5257/gartz3.html)
Shulgin says:
"Similar amounts of baeocystin were found to be present (a homologue of psilocybin found in some dozen mushrooms including Psilocybe baeocystis) and, a couple of years later, there was a report of a third indole alkaloid. This was named aeruginascin, and is characterized by thin layer chromatography, but as of the present its structure has not been published. The discoverer, Jochen Gartz, has stated that its action is a modifying of the intensity of the effects of the psilocybin present, leading to a euphoric mood accompanying the consumption of Inocybe aeruginascens."
(http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/aeruginascin.htm)
But then a couple of months ago the identity of aeruginascin was cleared up:
"Did Gartz tell you that the evasive compound aeruginascin in Inocybe aeruginascens has finally been isolated and identified as 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N,N-trimethyltryptamine, the quaternary trimethylammonium analog of psilocybine. The work was subject of a doctoral thesis by Niels Jensen, and is accessible at
http://webdoc.sub.gwdg.de/diss/2004/jensen/
The thesis has more than 300 pages, so I only downloaded the abstract, and a few of the most interesting pages.
It seems that the compound is unstable, and unlikely to pass the brain barrier. Perhaps it still contributes a little to the psychoactivity of the 'shroom (by peripheral action?)"
(http://www.entheogen.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=3953.html)
So my hunch is that the difference in effect reported for ps. semilanceata and inocybe aeruginascens is due to the baeocystin content, and/or its probable synergy with psilocybin. One thing I want to do now is compare panaeolus subbalteatus with these, as this one also can have a high P:B ratio (one analysis stated 0.7% psilocybin, 0.46% baeocystin). I've never eaten this one, although now is a good time to search it 
Establishment of its activity is from personal communication with Gartz:
"Es gibt laut Jochen Ott noch keine genaue Beschreibung in der Literatur ueber die genaue pharmakologische Wirkung der Substanz, nur einen kurzen Bericht, dass die Substanz eine milde Halluzinose (halluzinogene Erfahrung, Trip) mit der Dauer von 3h ausloest. Dies wurde vom deutschen Pilzforscher Jochen Gartz berichtet; (62/281)"
(http://www.erowid.org/languages/german/drug_reference/baeocyst.shtml)
According to John Allen, pure baeocystin is very close in effects to psilocin and psilocybin. Apparantely Ott and Bigwood also tried baeocystine and found the effects to be the same as eating fresh or dried shrooms.
He also claims:
"NOt sure about the baeocystine. P. mexicana is alsoa calm and tranquiliy sought after shroom by the mazatec shamans.
Thye P. samuineis is also similar as is P. strictipes and P. subfimetaria. AS to their baeocystine contents being the result of the calmness, I still think iti si jut the combination of those alkaloids.
On the other hand It just might be mushrooms with a high psilocybine content which are tranquil and those with a high psilocine content are electrical.
Never thought about that one before."
(http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1621642/page//fpart/all/vc/1)
That last statement I have serious doubts with, as psilocybin becomes psilocin instantly as soon as it hits the stomach..
Baeocystinnically yours
Vitus. |
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meme
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| Joined: 10 Mar 2005 |
| Posts: 23 |
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8.00 Points
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Shrooms ain't just shrooms
Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:26 am |
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| The addition of pan. campanalatus into a brew of psil. cubensis really modifies the experiance, as well . . . it's not just baeocystin that moifies the experiance. PAn camps containa little psilocin and a lot of serotonin . . . who knows what trace alkaloids are present?! |
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Vitus
Psychoscientist
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| Joined: 19 Apr 2005 |
| Posts: 72 |
| Location: Dunwich |
2608.18 Points
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?
Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:12 am |
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That is strange...
Pan campanulatus does not contain psiloc(yb)in, it was a analytical mistake made by O'lah in the late 1960s IIRC, when he used TLC plates and mixed up serotonin with psilocin.
Most panaeolus species do indeed contain sizeable amounts of serotonin, but surely that is completely broken down by the body's MAO enzymes?
Amongst other things, bufotenin and DMT are commonly present as trace amounts, but really we are talking about a couple of micrograms here! These can have no influence at all on the overall effects..
And it ain't the high urea content of panaeolus species either..
BTW panaeolus campanulatus, sphinctrinus and panaeolina foenisecii are considered non-edible and slightly toxic, but for other reasons than the serotonin present. |
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IndoleAmine
Dreamreader Deluxe
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| Joined: 09 Feb 2005 |
| Posts: 681 |
| Location: Bahamas |
18717.10 Points
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:32 pm |
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GHB turns into GBL too when hitting the stomach, yet its effects are different than if ingesting GBL directly.
Anyway, semilanceateas look alot nicer than paneolus or cubensis, too!
...everything OK so far, brain?...  |
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brain
Linguist Extraordinaire
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| Joined: 08 Mar 2005 |
| Posts: 143 |
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2405.16 Points
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Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:58 pm |
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| im living... so it's not so bad i think |
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Lyral
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| Joined: 25 May 2005 |
| Posts: 5 |
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259.86 Points
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re: Schroms+maoi=madnes :)
Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:27 pm |
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look at erowid they have info on maoi's too
tyramine isnt such a big problem as far as i know, it really depends on what kind of maoi you have ingested.
im on 0,8g psilo + 450mg moclobemide (no problems with tyramine) in the moment and it really kicks oh i love this combination,and i did not like shrooms before! well maybe this isnt the right forum but shit it seems like this combination alters the effects from 4-oh-dmt instead of just making them stronger
i could describe it but i dont want to, its hard for me to write these lines... listening to electronic music is awesome - and i thought i got resistant to the music !
amusing |
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