Author Topic: A.I. uses "retrosynthesis" to copy patented drugs without infringing patents  (Read 1445 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dopamine

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
I thought this was pretty interesting, basically this company has developed AI that can reverse engineer drug patents in order to sidestep copyright infringement.  I bet with some tweaking it could also be purposed to sidestep drug laws and create new designer drugs / research chemicals.

Quote
Called Chematica, the software platform does something called “retrosynthesis,” similar to the kind of reverse engineering that takes place when an engineer dissects an existing product to see how it works. In the case of Chematica, this process is based on a deep knowledge of how chemical interactions take place. It has around 70,000 synthetic chemistry “rules” coded into its system, along with thousands of additional auxiliary rules prescribing when particular reactions occur and with which molecules they’re compatible. An algorithm then inspects the massive number of possible reaction sequences in order to find another way to the same finish line.
source: hxxps://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/ai-develop-drug-without-trademark/

Offline gd

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Quote
The rules are the "basic moves" that are used by graph-search algorithms to navigate enormous trees of synthetic possibilities in intelligent ways.

I just knew I wasn't barking up the wrong tree with my own endeavors (www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php/topic,16556)...

Offline chip

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 35
  • a little bit more
    • dopetalk / d&u
i don't see how an alternate synthesis 'gets around' any such copyright infringement but i know nothing about the law.

i do, however, have a grasp on fair play.

surely it is moreso the product that bears the weight of copyright here, regardless of the route taken ?

mind you and having said that, i'm not sure what would happen if software synthed every possible molecular structure, so the method is definitely intellectual property.

Online loft

  • Dominant Wasp
  • ****
  • Posts: 315
Chematica was covered here before, awesome software, I which I had excess to it :D

Offline gd

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Chematica was covered here before, awesome software, I which I had excess to it :D

I would love to play around with Chematica myself, if only I had the chance, but, these huge pieces of proprietary software that charge like $10,000 a license (or something like that) aren't always that much more sophisticated than what open source projects can do (with the right amount of dedication and contribution, at least).

It's like Wolfram / Mathematica / etc... Sure, super useful software if you can afford it (or can get a license by some other means), but totally replicable.

The awesome thing about computer science is that the investments are virtually non-existent. I've only recently gotten into chemistry and it's already costing me a small fortune (glassware, precursors, solvents, and the especially fancy shit like Soxhlet extractors, etc).
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 02:17:15 AM by gd »

Offline gd

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 4
i don't see how an alternate synthesis 'gets around' any such copyright infringement but i know nothing about the law.

i do, however, have a grasp on fair play.

surely it is moreso the product that bears the weight of copyright here, regardless of the route taken ?

mind you and having said that, i'm not sure what would happen if software synthed every possible molecular structure, so the method is definitely intellectual property.

Ok I'm most definitely not particularly knowledgeable when it comes to chemistry (or law, for that matter), but...

It seems to me like particular molecular configurations can't possibly be copyrighted since they're totally naturally occuring (even if synthesized in a lab). I mean, it feels like if someone were to copyright gasoline (goodbye 90% of the fuel industry).

I'm not speaking from a place of certainty or anything, but intuitively it just seems like it can't possibly be.

Even syntheses the though... Like, can someone copyright hydrocarbon combustion????

Some food for thought at the very least, that's for sure

Offline Baba_McKensey

  • Toad Quarantine
  • Dominant Wasp
  • *
  • Posts: 378
Most phenethylamine, tryptamine, ergoline, etc. drug patents are expired and in the public domain.
I'm not Sam

Offline redred

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 8
mhmm, i idea 8)

Offline carl

  • Global Moderator
  • Founding Wasp
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,887
  • So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Most phenethylamine, tryptamine, ergoline, etc. drug patents are expired and in the public domain.
Yes actually even almost all of them are.
I don't think it is widely known though, as even designer drugs/research chemicals that so far aren't patented yet, will usually become protected from becoming it ever.
So, like when they are described by forensical chemists, they become unpatent-able, not able to show up described in a patent at first.
I only know this as it happened to a friend of mine, who prepared several novel fluoromethoxyamphetamines, and wanted to patent them as psychotherapeutic invention drugs, and many other claims of a similar nature, psycholytic therapy and such...
His patent was still filed, I have linked it below, but had not applied successfully, due to the mentioned issue.

He was carrying that out purely as a hobby by the way, and while doing them himself, he soon started giving his products aways for free in psycholytic sessions to friends and patients who were recommend by them, but later on for sessions just for the drug use with his friends(actually they considered him as acquintance only, reason given below), yet still for free... but under the condition they use them still at his home.

Then his lab was busted soon after the filed application, and due to being one of the biggest drug labs ever in that certain german state, it was causing literally at least three dozen articles in the largest national newspapers countless else in the tiny local ones.
One was even called "biochemist testing drugs on friends", which indicates he drugged up people against their will... but he doing psycholytic therapy instead, with MDMA mostly but tried other substance too, when the patient was in for it of course.
It even was likely one of the largest designer drugs lab in private hands not doing commercial syntheses.
He once told me, to have made around 40% of his bibles, those being of course Pihkal and Tihkal... I saw proof of it(stil own a few of those proofs, like DOET, what the hell is wrong with anyone using that::)
His suicide has also cause an half dozen article, being something like a celebrity, or maybe thus because it was the only barbiturate related death for like half a century?
Anyway, due to his suicide, I feel free to post his application here, as it contains of course the real name of him.
Here is the patent application of him... https://patents.google.com/patent/DE102011015842A1/en
He would have liked to see it spread, even if the chemistry is all known very much to us...
But involves LiAlH4 reductions fluoro P2NP's though, something Joe only lately has described as being very, very rare, citing just two examples of it... these can be translated easily to unsubstituted LiAlH4 of course, as the fluorine there only causes to change the pharmacological aspects, not the chemical ones... (except the 2-fluoro analogue though, that acts just exactly like plain amphetamine).

I find that sad, as he was one of the last people influenced only by Shulgin instead of Breaking Bad, back then almost everyone pursuing drug chemistry with determination to want to invent new drugs, and most making meth instead only wanted to become cool drug cooks.
Back then, the most major influence before this  series, was probably the dateline episode with strike, I would guess?
Nowadays, due to that damn series(never watched it and never will! It almost ruined the future of the hobby!), everyone who wants to pursue drug chemistry nowadays is itself drawn to make meth due to that series, as it has influenced the public view on the hobby more than anything else ever.
Just claiming to do chemistry as a hobby, even if it just is simple anorganic stuff or other non-drug related stuff, will get you a "are you making meth?" as immediate response from most of the people, not only in the americas but even the whole western world!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:24:55 PM by carl »
Quote
Real bees just hear the buzzing and it doesn´t ever stop. Ever.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information


Offline Baba_McKensey

  • Toad Quarantine
  • Dominant Wasp
  • *
  • Posts: 378
entropy51 used to rant about illegal drug synthesis at Scimad.

Quote
Making nice about the inherent chemical interest of illegal drug synthesis is not conducive to improving the image of chemistry as a hobby.

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=18434&page=2#pid233135


last post
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=18759#pid235732

post after this
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=3613#pid163924
I'm not Sam

Offline Hydroxetamine

  • Larvae
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Thank you carl for posting the patent. Incidentally I know the person you talk about, and funny thing, some DOET (along with some other rare gems like 2C-T-2-NBOMe) made by this honourable person found it's way to me.
Didn't know about the patent though, I'm glad to see his work living on after his suicide. Rest in peace, you were one of the rare bees living up to our ideal.
Do you happen to have some more patents, lab notes or the like from our beloved O.? Doesn't matter if german or not.
Interesting, he patented 4-Fluorophenylbutanamine, which I chose to make in the future. I thought it may be somewhat like BDB, which was a substance said researcher found to be valuable. As 4-FA is right in between of MDMA and plain Amphetamine effect-wise, I figured 4-FB might be BDB-esque with slightly more push? Did he mention this compound by any chance? Would be nice to hear if it's worthwile before making it, on the other hand he explicitly describes it's synthesis in the patent, it's even the third compound he writes about.
Also nice to see his separation method for the isolation of S-4-FA, which he loved so much :)

Anyway, thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 01:47:24 PM by Hydroxetamine »

Offline dopamine

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
...
That damn jewish media on it again for those who don't know who is behind it, influencing culture to the negative, thus causing the cultural marxism becoming a major political influence in the west...

Whoa whoa... I'm not going to argue about your prejudices--as offensive as they are-- but of all people you should know the forum is not the place for that kind of stuff.

Offline carl

  • Global Moderator
  • Founding Wasp
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,887
  • So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Yeah sorry for that, I just kept on ranting ::)
I removed the offensive part from my post now.

Hydroxetamine, this really is strange what you say there about him :D
DOET? What the hell, you too? :P

I only have some private communication with him left though, but as you see from that patent...
His methods were nothing novel or outstanding, they were like Shulgins, just the same standard method used always again.
He was very intrigued by the methods in use among our people though, but, to quote him "microwaves and yeast, I'm too old for that!" ;D
Only novel thing he really was very intrigued with and if possible, wanted to get into, was the cultivation of ergot, because as you well know too, the lysergic acid amides where always left on his bucket list.

The only thing, because you mention it, where we talked about methods was the chiral separation of 4-FA, due to his method being rather expensive, was the application of tartaric acid here instead.
Which works of course too, so for anyone interested?
The amino acid he used just seems to provide a better separation, but using the selective extraction, I would rather prefer using cheaper and less hassle causing tartaric acid myself.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 07:14:33 PM by carl »
Quote
Real bees just hear the buzzing and it doesn´t ever stop. Ever.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information