Author Topic: General "Nootropics" Thread & Related Cognitive Improvement Supplements.  (Read 373 times)

Sedit

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Re: General "Nootropics" Thread & Related Cognitive Improvement Supplements.
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2011, 04:54:46 AM »
Yall are playing with fire with amitryptiline and im a first hand witness. It don't make you smart. But it has the option of making you nuts.... PCP type nuts. Tsathoggua what do you know about this compound. I have had a very bad reaction to this substance. If not relevent to this thread please PM. Thank you.
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Bluebottle

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Re: General "Nootropics" Thread & Related Cognitive Improvement Supplements.
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2011, 04:56:20 AM »
If the brain could have evolved to make better use of it's learning systems by just upping certain levels, it would have by now. The best use of chemicals is a selective tweak now and then. [or to correct a deficiency/dysfunction of course]

Amitryptiline is interesting, but terrible in many ways. I'm not sure to attribute that to muscarinic activity, serotonin antagonism, or the trk activity itself. Have you taken any yet?

I was strongly affected by it, but a friend at twice the dosage reported no effect. My tolerance to it built rapidly, which might not be a good sign as far as continuous use goes.

I took some notes I can post if you like.



« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 05:21:26 AM by Bluebottle »
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Tsathoggua

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Re: General "Nootropics" Thread & Related Cognitive Improvement Supplements.
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2011, 08:49:11 PM »
Yeah, do, I would be interested to read them.

Sedit no info for you I'm afraid, I don't know anything that I haven't posted.
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Bluebottle

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Re: General "Nootropics" Thread & Related Cognitive Improvement Supplements.
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2011, 05:49:35 AM »
I was talking to a friend the night I first tried it, and I thought I had copied down the conversation as a chronological record of how the material affected me. All I could find was a brief note taken the following morning:

Quote
This stuff is very powerful.

~12.5 mg followed by 3 mg melatonin at around 9:30 sunday night. An irresistable sleep-like state [not sleep!] was induced within the hour prior to which, bizarre effects were noted.

The following morning something persists which I can somewhat describe, as a depression of some type of visual cognition [5HT antagonism probably], as well as a persistent sleepiness resulting from my unwillingness to let my mind solidify into such a mode. However interestingly enough closed-eye memory for surroundings actually seems improved, in a strange bodily more than visual fashion [almost certainly anticholinergic].

So I re-wrote an account of my first experience if that is of interest, but it highlights the non Trk-B aspect which is it's relevance to the thread, so I set it apart. The most tangible, and invariant (to me) aspect of this drug is that the second night after I would take it, "dreaming" of a most peculiar and extraordinary quality takes place. It seems to generally fuck up sleep, but I find it puzzling that the most vivid effect occurs on the second night. Metabolism perhaps? In one case at least it seemed to take on a prophetic quality, but I'm still undecided about the validity of such a thing (and that's off topic anyway).

In the short term at least, I was would have described its action as unpleasant; the latter couple times didn't seem as distasteful as it had started as. The intoxication wasn't particularly useful for any but exploratory purposes, and while generally not too incapacitating, the haze, which itself seems to disappear after the third night, could become annoying. With more frequent use it might well be a difficulty. The intensity of it's effect on me did drop alarmingly quickly, and mainly for this reason, I allow suspicion that it had long term effects on  me, not necessarily through tolerance, a neurochemical matter that can be neurochemically reset, but through accustomisation which can be more subtle and insidious. To clarify that, I mean that once the brain learns to function in a certain state it has a greater tendency towards it, even incorporating elements into it's "normal" functioning.

I am disinclined to blame this sort of thing on a drug as I said, but if my recent mental changes are indeed related to Amitryptiline, I would accuse it of disturbing some fundamental processes in a personality. Concretely, a tendency to rewrite, ignore, downplay, or forget the past (forgetting, in a different way to a normal lapse in memory). Perhaps even to a point of regression, but not quite in the normal "hypnotic" sense. The kind of disruption that would fit this situation, could throw off a person's drives, desires, structure in the severest cases imaginable. (Further detail, while possibly relevant, is also somewhat personal.) Hypothetically, this all might be related to the TrkB mediated nerve growth, in which case we have another piece of the puzzle. But certainly "it don't make you smart"!

On that note, I could mention more nefarious implications of the widespread use of this substance, but I am yet unconvinced, and I think I have written enough for the occasion. On a final note, neuron growth isn't always such a good thing as it might seem superficially. While new elements of the system might increase it's capacity, the brain functions through existing patterns, and new elements can upset them. I could be wrong, but my impression of the memory loss that can be induced by Cannabis is partly due to neurogenesis in certain parts of the brain. In that case, just the right spot for many folks to extract greater benefits than un-benefits (curses? there's a word) in consideration of their intent, for example music or problem solving.


Account:

I must say this first occasion was by far the most dramatic of the lot. My intent was to generally try out this Amitryptiline stuff. I suspected nerve growth hijinks would tend to occur in sleep, so a substance acting on it would be best taken near sleep. But three milligrams of melatonin and 12.5 of some unnatural Trk-B ligand would be more than a body ordinarily produces. My best guess for a result was super sleep; observing it might have some bearing on understanding the process of sleep. The result of nerve growth itself would of course only be evident on a longer scale.

The first thing I noticed was the strong taste, which I mention because it was so strange "like plastic flowers from mars". Hard to forget the savour of that unearthly amine. The stuff could be felt working its way into my tissues, but profound mental alteration was yet to be noted. I had planned to take the melatonin 20 minutes after, but got impatient and there was only a fifteen minute delay.

The onset of Amitryptiline clearly had the mark of serotonin antagonism to me. The first noticeable psychological effect was a visual muting, very mild at first (and later, the feature retaining it's essence became less characterizable as a muting and more of a general shift). As if the lighting remained the same, but something behind the picture was darkened.

My memory is pretty poor in general, but I distinctly recall the observation I made to E. that it was like "I could almost see the chain of thought processes that led up to the current moment". To explain, what became unusually evident was the exact, almost geometrical, series of my thoughts and their tangents as implications of the precursors, relegating my self in a way, to observing them. In ordinary cognition one can pick apart one's thoughts, with care, but the most impressive part of this was how clear and distinct such an arrangement was. Never before nor since have I experienced anything quite like that.

This was fairly interesting for a little while, and the general concept of the effect seemed fruitful, but it quickly became evident that remaining long in such a state could send one towards insanity. For that matter, getting accustom to functioning like that seemed like it might handicap one similar to excessive use of cannabis. I suppose in retrospect one might find it an opportunity to increase meditative focus in seldom used ways, but it wasn't quite focus that I lacked.

My ability to focus on the matters of our conversation didn't to that point seem much impaired. If anything I seemed just a little out of it. I don't think that what I have since found to be the character of anticholinergic intoxication was evident quite then, perhaps it takes its time to get to those receptors? There were a few more subtle observations which seem to have been lost. Well, regardless, soon after this effect became most pronounced, a third stage appeared, presumably synergy with the melatonin which was kicking in.

Outwardly manifest was the growing inability to keep my eyes open, but in much greater force than melatonin had produced in me previously. My thought processes were becoming rather more distracted, as odd restless fantasies started to take over. The ability to concentrate on the conversation was soon lost; not to the point of psychotic incoherence but enough that I had lapsed at least once for, what must have been brief, but indeterminate time. Of course I said good night around then and prepared for sleep.

Almost immediately, my body largely did it's normal thing in sleeping. In some measure I lost consciousness as well; but I did not "sleep" in any way I consider sleep. The flow of fantasy and vision seemed mostly uninterrupted (in contrast to normal sleep which seems broken up), and yet it was thoroughly disjointed and incoherent. By morning I was not exhausted, but certainly not rested, and it felt like I might have kept my body up a bit too. There was an overtly mild, but distinct haziness, fuzziness, possibly anticholinergic in nature, as I went about my day.
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