Author Topic: LSM?  (Read 471 times)

myCH3

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LSM?
« on: February 09, 2012, 09:29:31 PM »
Please delete or move this to another thread if it does not belong here. 

Reading through the designer drugs directory in the lysergaminde section it mentions lsd and lsm and in the lsm section there was an interesting quote "this compound may be of particular
interest to a clandestine manufacturer because it can be easily prepared by
simple heating of ergotamine in morpholine [2]."

The reference given was [2] Valter, K.: Unpublished case report, (1980) so not very
helpful

Anyone know anything further is it really that simple?  I haven't been able to find anything else on this but I am going to keep looking and will post anything I find. 



lugh

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 12:45:07 AM »
It's less potent than lysergic acid diethylamide  8)
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Vesp

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 01:48:38 AM »
But how much less potent?

This is an interesting topic for sure.

Would be neat and a bit funny if crude extracts from morning glory, ergot heads, or HBWR could just be heated in morpholine for something significantly better.


I guess it is called LSM-775?


Quote
N-Morpholinyllysergamide (LSM-775) is a derivative of ergine. It is reported to have some LSD-like effects at doses ranging from 75 to 700 micrograms. LSM-775 is said to produce dream like states similar to DXM. Its visual component is like that of LSD, but it is said to be less intense and not as pronounced as LSD.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSM-775
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lugh

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 02:23:48 AM »
The reference given in the attached chapter from the Heffter Review of Psychedelic Research 2 (2001) is Gogerty,  J.  H., Dille, J.  M. (1957)  Pharmacology  of d-lysergic  acid  morpholide  (LSM), J.  Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 120: 340- 348 (1957)

There's a variation reported on the dosage in the Wikipedia article which generally means there's some disagreement about potency among published articles  8)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 02:56:56 AM by lugh »
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myCH3

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 04:19:45 AM »
But how much less potent?

This is an interesting topic for sure.

Would be neat and a bit funny if crude extracts from morning glory, ergot heads, or HBWR could just be heated in morpholine for something significantly better.


I guess it is called LSM-775?


Quote
N-Morpholinyllysergamide (LSM-775) is a derivative of ergine. It is reported to have some LSD-like effects at doses ranging from 75 to 700 micrograms. LSM-775 is said to produce dream like states similar to DXM. Its visual component is like that of LSD, but it is said to be less intense and not as pronounced as LSD.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSM-775

I know thats what I was thinking.  its not that much less potent than L.  And dream-like states don't sound that bad

Vesp

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 05:14:55 AM »
Hmm, also I wonder if it is really all that easy to make..might require screw ball catalysts that are difficult to use, etc etc as opposed to mixing and heating.

Might be able to substitute morpholine with other things, perhaps things with one less carbon or something?
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lugh

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 06:13:05 PM »
Hoffman's Problem Child is uniquely potent  ;)  The potency of some LSD analogs is in the attached table from the 1994 NIDA Monograph  8)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 06:17:37 PM by lugh »
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myCH3

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 04:21:13 AM »
300 ug doesnt sound like its to unpotent to me.  If one were to get some of those Cafergot pills, and extract out the ergotamine.  Then proceed to dissolve those crystals into the morpholine, then precede to heat said mixture.  how would you tell if you got the correct product.  I need to read alot more I feel, but I'll post up anything I find.  The techniques used for lsd would work for this one correct? 

Assyl Fartrate

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 06:24:06 AM »
You would know you got what you were looking for because you could eat it and trip balls. :P
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Re: LSM?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 04:47:51 PM »
Would it be a 5HTP or k-opioid agonist? Or... Both?

I'm rather fond of kappa agonists, myself, and would welcome the dissociation.
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

tregar

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 07:18:04 PM »
Very interesting thread! thanks for this.

Vesp

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 09:52:24 PM »
Would it be a 5HTP or k-opioid agonist? Or... Both?

I'm rather fond of kappa agonists, myself, and would welcome the dissociation.

Why would you think it might have some kappa agonist properties?
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Re: LSM?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 12:36:18 AM »
Well, more a question, really. If the psychedelic aspects are purely serotonergic in nature with a little opioid mellow (if that), then that's good also.
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

Sedit

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 01:51:02 AM »
Well, more a question, really. If the psychedelic aspects are purely serotonergic in nature with a little opioid mellow (if that), then that's good also.

KOR agonist are hardly mellow, they are more like an intense dissociation. Go smoke some Salvia 20x extract and take the largest hit possible and then come back and tell me that what you feel was a mellow high :o. Salvia is a potent and rather selective KOR agonist.

Someone please provide reference showing LSD or LSM as a KOR agonist please or else this discussion is useless.
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Re: LSM?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 06:47:26 AM »
Well, see, that's kind of my point. I'd LOVE this to be a kO agonist.

I LOVE salvinorin. As much as I can get in a dose, preferably with DMT. It's just more of a stable experience.

I'll suck down as much salvinorin as I can get at any one time. I love it. Period.

The mix with DMT, as Noman showed me when I was spending the night at his place one time, is the only way to fly with salvinorin. They mellow each other out (despite instinct telling us otherwise) and you bring much, much, much more of the experience back with you to integrate while you're in a more stable state of consciousness to deal with it.
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

myCH3

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 09:17:19 AM »
hxxp://www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap6.pdf This paper states it has 1/10 of lsd ability to block the action of serotonin Cerletti and Doepfner 1958) but it is 75% as active as a psychedelic. Gogerty and Dille 1957,  This one mentions it on page 60 hxxps://www.esotericpharma.org/papers/Pfaff%20et%20al%20-%20Lysergamides%20revisited.pdf but only says that if lsd's potency is 100 this ones is 32?  its taken from a shulgin paper from 81 you can read here hxxp://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/journals/psychoactives_journal8.shtml its towards the bottom of the page.  All I have found so far would love to know more

Thats intense dr. tox 

Sedit

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 08:05:39 PM »
I have never tried any other selective KOR but I was under the impression that long lasting KORs are not very enjoyable and lead to various psychic disturbances such as paranoia and things of that nature.
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tregar

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2012, 02:28:12 AM »
KOR reference for saliva attached, Ray's project on the psychedelic receptors.

4.00 = maximum affinity

Salvinorin A: 4.00 KOR; 0.00: 5ht2a, 5ht2b, 5ht2c, 5ht1b,
5ht1d, 5ht1e, 5ht5a, 5ht1a, 5ht7, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, Alpha1A,
Alpha1B, SERT, DOR, 5ht6, Beta1, Beta2, M2, DAT, M4, M5,
H1, M1, M3, MOR; ND: Alpha2A, Alpha2C, Sigma2, Alpha2B,
NET, Imidazoline1, Sigma1, H2, CB2, CB1,

I think LSD is the only ergoline in the paper though. I've heard 4-aco-dmt (acetyl psilocin from 4-ho-dmt) described as the perfect "inbetween" between mushrooms and LSD, leans more on the cosmic side of things like LSD. I may not get the chance to try LSM, but I believe 4-aco-dmt is our best hope in an RC that can be ranked among the classics mescaline, acid & mushrooms.  Like the best of mushrooms with some more good stuff, and none of the sucky stuff from mushrooms, way less anxiety and more euphoric. Remember ALD-52? that was the acetyl of LSD, believed by many (see wikipedia) to be like a more euphoric LSD with less anxiety, compare 4-ho-dmt with 4-aco-dmt (acetyl psilocyn). Acetyl-psilocin is like a more euphoric mushrooms with way less anxiety....Hey, i'd be happy with mescaline the rest of my life but I only have a limited supply having only a few kg of good skins left, and I don't have the patience to wait forever to pick a live cactus. I'll prefer to mix it with 4-aco-dmt if i have to, to make my supply of it lasts longer, or use it with 25i-nbome.
Quote
ALD-52, also known as N-acetyl-LSD, is a chemical analogue of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). It was originally discovered by Albert Hofmann but was not widely studied until the rise in popularity of psychedelics in the 1960s.

In TiHKAL, Shulgin touches briefly on ALD-52 in entry 26, LSD. His writings are vague, second hand accounts, saying doses in the 50-175 µg range have resulted in various conclusions. One found that there was less visual distortion than with LSD and it seems to produce less anxiety and was somewhat less potent than LSD. Another report claimed it was more effective in increasing blood pressure. Yet another could not tell them apart.

It has the same characteristics as LSD, but supposedly "without the anxiety, tenseness, and other problems inherent to it".
[edit] Dangers

In The Hallucinogens by Hofmann and Osmond (1967), ALD-52 (D,L-acetyllysergic acid diethylamide) is listed as having a lower (approximately 1/5) intravenous toxicity (in rabbits), a lower (approximately 1/8) pyretogenic effect, an equal psychological effect in humans, and double the "antiserotonin" effect as compared with LSD.

It is possible ALD-52 was the active chemical in the "Orange Sunshine" LSD that was widely available in California through 1968 and 1969. The Sonoma County underground chemistry lab of Tim Scully and Nicholas Sand was the source for "Orange Sunshine." It was shut down by the police, and Scully was arrested and prosecuted. This resulted in the first drug analogue trial, where Scully claimed that he and his partners did nothing illegal, because they were producing ALD-52 which was not an illicit drug. However, as the prosecution claimed, there were problems with such a rationale: first, ALD-52 readily undergoes hydrolysis to LSD, and second, the synthesis of ALD-52 required LSD (this was based on the methods available in the scientific literature at the time). Scully was convicted and served time in prison.
25i-nbome has "some" affinity for KOR, but it is considered weak at 288:

The ligand 25i-Nbome had low affinity for most receptors, with the following reported Ki values (nM) for receptors where it had significant affinity: (the lower the number, the greater the binding):

5-HT2a (0.044)
5-HT2c (2)
5-HT6 (73, +/-12)
5-HT2B (231, +/-73)

u opiate (82, +/-14)
H1 (189, +/-35)
kappa opiate (288 +/-50)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 03:41:33 AM by tregar »

myCH3

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 09:00:34 PM »
The 4-aco-dmt to me and a few of my friends was indistinguishable from mushrooms... but i've only tried it once maybe I need to re investigate.  And I'm not quite sure if the analogy from ald-52 works, isnt the acetyl off the 1 position?   Didn't shulgin postulate that the 4-aco substitution, was reduced to the 4-ho form invivo?  think this was in tikhal in the 4-aco/4ho mipt section.  I'll check later.  Read other places that the 4-aco substitution makes the molecule very polar and it penetrates the blood brain barrier exceptionally quick.  Believe he said this some were about 4acodalt being the possibly super fast acting.  I think this was in that leaked page about 5-meo-dalt?  I'll find the links and post them up later.  Could this just be a case of the molecule rushing into the brain and being turned into 4-ho-dmt(psilocen)?  and hell mushrooms are awesome the comeup is the only part I dont particularly like so faster mushrooms for the win

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Re: LSM?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2012, 04:02:56 AM »
He said that due to the activity of esterases left, right and center (I paraphrase), that in all likelihood it will indeed be cleaved rapidly, most likely minutes after administration.

BUT, that it has not been proven. It is logical, it is highly probable, but it has neither been proven, or the reverse.

This does NOT preclude (not Shulgin's words, nor my paraphrasing, Toady's voice here) the acetyl ester, there being a difference in 5HTr specific binding and/or efficacy (or functional selectivity, the 5HT2aR is known to display protean response types to different agonists, vis a vis lisuride, the highly potent displacer of 5HT, and agonist at a slew of CNS type 5HTRs, and both 2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine and the corresponding 4-cyanoamphetamine, both being functionally selective agonists for PLA2 vs IP3 turnover release (can't remember which one is which)...and then there is diacylglycerol also. These are intracellular pathways, being differentially activated by selective 5HT2a ligands thanks to different G-protein activation.

Look at 6-MAM, the gluconuride conjugates and sulfate conjugates of morphine, codeine, etc (dihydroderivatives are funky animals when it comes to regular opioid SAR and similar...one might not always get what one expects with that  and heroin vs morphine. H is NOT just a pro-drug and lipophilic, high-speed carrier of morphine,
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