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Author Topic: pics and prints- possibly a concern  (Read 307 times)

embezzler

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pics and prints- possibly a concern
« on: July 13, 2010, 08:36:50 PM »
Following on from a post I read over at mycotopia I got to thinking that the guy in question had a point beyond drug addled paranoia.

The concern was that with pics that are uploaded being in high resolution even details such as finger prints can be determined from the photographs. It follows that automated fingerprint software may be able to determine identity based on pictures if finger prints (or worse as I have seen - finger tips) are visible. I imagine it would still need an operator to select areas of interest but it wouldnt be a lot of work I imagine.

I am not sure how much this is a reality but I said I would speak up since I am sure that the technology exists to identify photographs of prints automatically (think AFIS) whether or not it is in use. Has anyone ever heard of fingerprints being taken from uploaded photographs like this?

Its unlikely but it would be difficult to deny

original thread for those interested hxxp://forums.mycotopia.net/general-discussions/68670-better-safe-than-sorry-must-read.html
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lugh

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 10:04:26 PM »
The attached patent indicates this might be of concern  ::)  Open source software exists that will do this  :-X  The person who posted that should be warned  8)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 10:11:34 PM by lugh »
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salat

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 10:38:02 PM »
I think the best defense for that would be not to include fingers - I remember wondering about that when I took the shot of the soxhlet.  I also check for side things like pieces of mail, packages with labels etc before I post a photo.   I think if you are in there sights anything and everything will be used and you should be concerned.  Stay off the radar and don't admit to doing illegal things online as sedit & vesp keep saying.

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Vesp

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 11:11:46 PM »
Also don't forget about all that info attached to the image involving the camera, etc  -- cell phone pictures would seem especially bad if the data on them were not removed.
I wish I could remember the term for that that info on most photos are called? :/ EXIF?

Also think about backgrounds - with ALL the images on google maps, it would also seem to be possible to find figure out what mountains were in the back - if it were an outside picture- and than with a bit of trigonometry they could probably have you down to the city and what part of the city you were in - than comparing what tall trees and other materials are in are in your yard, they could probably have you down to the house? I've always thought that would be possible, but perhaps that is harder than it sounds... ?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 11:14:57 PM by Vesp »
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lugh

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 04:14:38 AM »
The term generally used is metadata; which can be viewed using different means, but the simplest way for most is to use software written for that purpose such as EXIFViewer:

h**p://www.shareup.com/EXIFViewer-download-31453.html

There are also many ways to remove this data, freeware for doing so can be found at:

h**p://www.sentex.ca/~mwandel/jhead/

Some people don't bother with such methods, they just use a text editor such as Notepad or alternatively a hex editor such as:

h**p://mh-nexus.de/en/hxd/

to find and remove the metadata    ;D  A file explaining more about metadata is attached  8)
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embezzler

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 08:44:24 AM »
Hey all, even removing the metadata attached to the image file and any identifiable physical objects from ones residence the resolution of images could mean that it is possible to zoom in to surfaces like glassware and see prints that were not considered by the uploader so the issue seems to be real. SO REMEMBER TO WIPE ALL SMOOTH SURFACES. It may not be a bad idea to reduce the resolution to what is necessary to see and eliminate the extra zoom levels. It won't hurt the storage space either.

Much thanks Lugh for the links... I knew the software was there for idetification of prints and with all the EXIF data I made it a point long ago not to upload my own photos, coupled with not committing any crimes I figure it is the best defence.

I would not be surprised if there were a digital watermark which uniquely identifies each device steganographically contained in the image in addition to the more obvious data. This appears to be the case with printers, from what I have heard, but these can be identified by microscopic imperfections in the print quality. So the better the manufacturer the more likely that they will have batch traceability or a warantee that you have to sign for - which generates a database of your personal details that can be linked to a specific device.

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_watermarking

hxxp://www.springerlink.com/content/h373568738813756/ (I'll try get the actual article later and edit this but this is a proof of concept in any case.)
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Vesp

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 09:18:41 AM »
If one were to buy an old camera of low quality at a garage sale with cash, it would really solve a lot of the issues here I bet. Assuming you keep it low quality, they ought not be able to get the finger prints either -- so there you go - Of course, maybe don't be posting those sort of pictures in the first place  -- though, it REALLY makes a write-up tons better than it would be with out, and is a thousand words more descriptive.
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Sedit

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 07:48:47 PM »
Why don't someone just try it? Set the camera all the way up in resolution and take picture of there finger prints on various surfaces. I find it highly unlikely you will detect anything at all to be quite honest but you may with the best of the best print get some kind of image. The lines are so close together odds are you are going to get a smuge where the finger print was as the camera attempts to fill in lost data by finding the medium between two pixels.
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salat

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 08:03:13 PM »
>>coupled with not committing any crimes I figure it is the best defence>>

But not a fool proof defense - it looks like the drug laws have advanced to the point where you can be arrested for thinking about a crime or having the materials for committing a crime.  I really couldn't believe it when I took a look at the way the laws read.

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jon

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 01:21:44 AM »
you could always blame it on your moniker salat.
that cat looks pretty hopped up to me.
you're right the laws are ridiculous especially in those bible belt states.
they are what i call laws of opportunity, if they can't nail you in the act they can nail you on GP.

salat

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 02:51:35 AM »
My moniker means prayer.  How I do chemistry - put it in the pot and pray!!

salat

amazing what you can do with adobe photoshop.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 02:55:40 AM by salat »
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jon

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2010, 03:21:56 AM »
indeed it is.
 on the subject of fingerprints it's possible to wear false finger prints using this method.
one can obtain a perfect set of prints off a beer bottle.
dust the bottle and scan it.
then print it using an inkjet printer on a plastic template using a heavy ink setting to give a raised intaglio surface.
then pour over this a latex lke substance that sets over it.
once set one can cut these prints out and glue them to one's fingers and use them for identity purposes for example.

salat

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2010, 03:39:58 AM »
Don't think that will work - it is the oils in your hand that leaves a print I think.

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jon

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2010, 01:53:53 PM »
it works when you go to the dmv to get a licence.

salat

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2010, 02:20:15 PM »
They put ink on it right - if you wanted to leave prints on a flask or something I don't think the latex would leave anything because the oil from your fingers is what creates the pattern - like the ink.

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jon

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 05:25:40 PM »
no infrared also when you get booked into jail they use infrared scanners for fingerprints and a.f.i.s. so you can make these sets of fingerprints and glue them to yourself and for all intensive purposes impersonate someone else ie. they get the rap or you become them at the dmv.

Sedit

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2010, 05:33:18 PM »
This sounds like such a load of horse shit I don't even want to get started. Can we keep with the discusion at hand of prints in photos before we become Zolket.net material?
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jon

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2010, 05:38:19 PM »
it's not horseshit but okay

Vesp

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2010, 07:26:25 PM »
Find a reference, or a legit article on it - I am having a hard time believing it.
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jon

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Re: pics and prints- possibly a concern
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2010, 08:56:56 PM »
http://www.spike.com/video/manswers-season-1/2905994

i'm sorry they used a laser jet printer obviously a lot of details are left out but you get the picture.
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