Author Topic: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.  (Read 1008 times)

Vesp

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Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« on: March 24, 2009, 01:59:03 AM »
I figured since we have a few iodine threads, I'd post a source for bromine since it is also useful. Bromine is perhaps not as useful as iodine, but it finds use in several synthesis such as ethyl bromide, hydrobromic acid, acetic anhydride, and bromovanillin.

Sodium bromide, as well as the brominated cyanuric acid derivatives are sold at a lot of places similiar to walmart, and especially at the stores that specialize in swimming pool chemicals. The brominated cyanuric acid derivatives, which are often sold as floating tabs, are also chlorinated. with the tabs you often do not get as much bromine for the buck as compared to buying the sodium bromide.

Bromine can be produced by bubbling chlorine gas into a cold saturated solution of sodium bromide. A bottom layer of Br2 will form which can be separated and then dried by distilling with sulfuric acid.  If you are using the tabs, bromine can be produced by adding hydrochloric acid. This will produce chlorine, bromine, and cyanuric acid. The chlorine will float off as a gas, and the bromine should sink to the bottom, this might be more difficult to separate since the solublity of cyanuric acid is fairly poor and might precipitate into the bottom layer of the bromine. The colder the solution, the less bromine will dissolve in the water, and the higher your yields should be.

I haven't seen it in stores, but jacks yellow stuff contains 98% sodium bromide, and goes for about $13-19 for two pounds. Here is the cheapest source I've been able to find. http://www.discountpoolzone.com/chemicals/poolchemicals.html

Also I have attached a picture of the sodium bromide I find in walmart.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 02:02:13 AM by Vesp »
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 02:30:53 AM »
the easiest method I've found in my experience is in-situ chlorination in an ice-bath from calcium hypochlorite + con. HCl(titrated)...

This can be applied to most bee's chlorination needs instead of dealing with gas.

I left the brief procedure under the iodine thread.

Vesp

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2009, 03:05:33 AM »
that is probably the easiest method, I bet it could be modified so you just mix TCCA with Sodium bromide, and slowly added conc. HCl. That would be a great way I bet since TCCA is so economical compared to hypochlorites.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 11:27:22 PM »
I was going to post my writeup today but everything didn't go as planned. I feel a little ill, not exactly sure if it's the bromine...dear god that was aweful. My least favorite halogen next to chlorine.

Anyways, I was running low on cash so I used 5% bleach(sodium hypochlorite) instead of calcium hypochlorite. The only difference is calcium hypo can donate more chlorine. Anways I made a saturated solution of sodium bromide with bleach which turned a piss yellow and then titrated with con. HCl until the color progressed from the yellow to a deep, fuming red...yuck.

I didn't see any bromine fall out so I just assumed it was HBr...I then kept added HCl and then all of the sudden the color changed back to yellow. I guess the equalibrium shifted back because of the acid. So I figured I'd add more bromide salt and I was right. The color changed back to a thin red layer on the bottom. I thought I finally solved the equalibrium!

Well, I thought i'd add more NaBr to settle out more Br2...wrong. Instead it just shifted the whole solution again into HBr. Kinda pissed. Maybe I should've went with calcium hypochlorite.

I later added H2SO4 since I thought it would dry the water out. After the addition of the acid two layers formed...the top being a light transparent red, and the bottom an opaque deep red. Was this Br2? It wasn't exactly what I'd call dark red-brown? maybe it was a low concentration of Br2? eh idk. I have pics but I only really want to post once everything is finalized. I took a shortcut with bleach and now I'm wondering. Oh well, experiment is king.

I should also add that the bottom phase had a clear "IPA-like" refraction index.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 11:31:25 PM by poisoninthestain »

Vesp

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2009, 11:32:29 PM »
The bleach must be dilute. Try cooling off the solution significantly.. so ice is forming. That should help drop more of the Br2 out.

I don't know why it didn't work.  try to bubble chlorine into a cold concentrated solution of NaBr. I have always had luck with that and it should work for you.

Try adding NaCl perhaps? I would think NaCl would kick the Br2 out of solution.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2009, 11:44:38 PM »
I'll try freezing it, then salting out, then bubbling and report back.

Kinda off topic but I've been wondering which is deadlier, chlorine or bromine?

I personally think bromine might be.

I think it has a lower ppm threshold. I'm not so sure. I couldn't find too much info by comparison aside from the MSDS.

Vesp

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 12:10:13 AM »
Bromine is less reactive then chlorine, but I don't know if that plays an important roll in toxicity.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2009, 09:05:43 PM »
You know, now that I think about it, I'm gonna have to agree with you about the dilution thing. 5% Bleach just doesn't cut it. The available chlorine just isn't enough and that's why the equalibrium was shifting so much.

I don't work with bromine much. Hardly ever. I hate the stuff. It smells like if chlorine took a shit.

Sometime this week I'll try

H2O + calcium hypochlorite + HCL -> Cl2 + O2  + CaCl <-> HBr + Br2 ...or something similer minus all the equalibrium crap. If someone out there feels like balancing this feel free.

Vesp

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2009, 10:09:50 PM »
Yeah, this is probably why I prefer using Cl2, don't have to mess with it being dilute - just concentrated NaBr solution, no other liquids from the acids, or to dissolve other salts.
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no1uno

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 02:32:19 PM »
sounds like a mixture of bromine, bromine-water and a bunch of oxidised hypobromides... I overoxidised iodine a couple of times now, personally I throw a pull-tab off a soft-drink can in there to reduce the overoxidized stuff - with IO(x) the Al reduces it to I2 which then streams out of the vessel unless you are set up to catch it (plate filled with ice is good, put the underside over the vessel). With Bromine, it will probably fall out and sit in the bottom as you'd hope. I'd have to suggest you ditch that go and start over, you've tried to recover and just added a bunch of ways to screw up the results (as we've all done :P before).

Start over, work out the mol. weights of the sol'n and do it systematically (yeah I know, when in doubt, read the instructions ;D). Dilution will lead to massive amounts (relatively speaking) of bromine-water.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 02:55:23 PM »
no1uno-Yep, one step ahead. I ditched the HBr water yesterday. Twas a lost cause.

I believe 90% now it was a dilution issue.

My conclusion: bleach *can* form bromine, but it's not worth the effort.

Calcium hypochlorite powder usually contains at least(as far as I know) 10x more available chlorine than bleach. Since I was short on cash I decided to attempt the bleach route.

poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 06:16:19 PM »
I've been doing A LOT of research on brominations with NBS and a few other novel ways besides bromine.

Oxone + bromide salt + methanol works absolutely beautifully. There's a patent on the Rhodium archives from the Korean Chem. Society that is simply fantastic.

It also works for other halogenations.

Vesp

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2009, 12:10:47 AM »
What other sort of halogens? that sounds very interesting since oxone is pretty easy to get.
Is this the one you were referring to? http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/oxone.aromatic.bromination.html

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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2009, 12:13:32 AM »
Yep, that's one of the refs.

It works great on chlorine, and iodine as well.

Perfect for 2C-I and 2C-C.

Vesp

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2009, 12:31:18 AM »
Very interesting, I know oxygen is more electronegative then chlorine, but it still surprises me that it works well for chlorine.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2009, 10:59:12 PM »
I thought I'd update this thread.

Last night I realized when I did this experiment ie. elemental bromine from bleach it was actually a success when I had thought the only thing I made was a mess of -OBr and HBr.

Turns out HBr DOESN'T fume red/brown and look blood red   ::)...well now I know LOL. The yellow liquid was the HBr mildly oxidized from the bleach(hence the yellow) then from HBr to Br2 by Cl2 from the addition of the HCl.

It all makes sense now.

bleach works.

eesakiwi

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2009, 06:49:28 AM »
 Years ago swIm heard about the Bromine.
 Looked around & found some pool bromine tablets.

 Found the above info on how to dissolve it in water & push it out of the solution with Chlorine gas.
 SwIm couldn't be mucked around with making chlorine gas so 'e decided to add Hydrochloric acid to the Bromine.

 Ah, don't do THAT inside...

 The lot got dumped in the sink & flushed away with water.

 So it was decided to powder it up, put it in a testube, add HCL acid.
 Lotsa bubbling, stinky gas comming off.
 White Bromine powder turns yellow under the HCL layer at the top of the testtube.
 
SwIm decides to do it again, but protecting the Bromine pdr with a layer of Parrifin oil on top of it.

 Does it again, but by injecting some HCL UNDER the parrifin layer.

 UGH? It doesn't spit out the gas etc now... ah the HCL layer forms a protecting layer on top.
 (about a teaspoon in a cigar sized Testube, 3/4 full of crushed Bromine pdr)

 This time the HCL formed a layer on the Bromine, reacted with it, turning the Bromine yellow as it moved down.
 The yellow got darker & darker, untill it was orange as it moved down.
 Then darker orange untill it turned red.
 Then darker red (its almost 1 inch from the bottom of the testube now) sorta murky.
 Then even darker Red, then the Red went to a dark Blood red, but clear, no murkyness.

 & swIm decided that if 'es about to make Bromine again, use a glass turkey baster.

 By the time it gets to the bottom, the Bromines very rich & when it hits rock bottom, & rich, it drops out of the baster into whatever you want it too.

Try it yourself, swIm left the experiment sitting on the end of the kitchen sink for over a year... Its pretty smell free.

 Getting the powder the right size is important, you want the HCL to form a flat layer, too course & it slips down the side past some of the Bromine.

 Too fine & it dosn't get a chance to move, it forms a solid crust on top of the bromine under the HCL.

 If swIms got a distillation setup & pushing the Bromine into DCM.
 SwIm would just add HCL directly to powdered Bromine in the reaction flask.

 Any comments would be appreciated. This was just filling in time late one night.

Vesp

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2009, 07:22:42 AM »
What was the compound that you were trying to free the bromine from?

there is a bromo derivative of TCCA, that would produce Br2 with the addition of HCl, but NaBr would only produce HBr, which would need to be oxidized to Br2 and H2O.
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heisenberg

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2009, 05:02:27 PM »
DBDMH (1,3-Dibromo-5,5-dimethylhydantoin) is increasingly available as a pool bromine source. Distilling with HCl will yield bromine, although it will also contain some BrCl contamination.
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poisoninthestain

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Re: Sources of Bromine/Bromide.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2009, 07:10:55 PM »
@eesakwi-you said the bromine you formed was blood-red but clear, as in transparent,...actually what you had was bromine water. Elemental Br2 is thick and dark as all hell...nothing clear about it. I know because I've been there and done the same thing.