Author Topic: phenoperidines  (Read 1039 times)

jon

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phenoperidines
« on: March 28, 2011, 08:13:42 AM »
these are meperidine drugs with a different n-substutent this class of drugs is a very promising and potentially lucrative one.
the basic gist of it is this the n-substutent can impart potencies as much as 700 times greater than morphine and, they are easily made from readily available chemicals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenoperidine

the ketone is actually of greater potency than the secondary alcohol this means fewer steps.
the 2-propiophenone of demerol for example is 60-200 times the potency of demerol; using a reversed ester the potency climbs 20 times that, as a rule.
these are wickedly potent drugs better expirimented on others first.
for example: one could make 4-phenyl piperidine-4-ol and n- substitute it by means of a mannich reaction with acetophenone and formaldehyde
the piperidinol itself can be made from alpha-methyl styrene formaldehyde and ammonium chloride.
yeilds are lousy so it's wiser to make the oxazine then make the phenyl 1,3,5,6 tetrahydropyridine and hydrobrominate that then, react with water.
but even then the yeild is only 25%
yeilds  are 12% with as per the other way.

read about them in opiod analgesics page 234
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 09:23:05 AM by jon »

atara

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 12:38:31 AM »
Quote
using a reversed ester the potency climbs 20 times that

Extreme precautions apply as to anyone trying to reverse the pethidine ester; the risks here are analogous!

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 09:05:18 AM »
pethidine is crap you have to reverse the ester to make it worth your time.

Shake

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2011, 10:42:53 AM »
4-phenyl piperidine-4-ol correct me if im wrong but isnt this a fairly new notation system, for naming compounds when you did your learning you would have learned the old method? where they dont split the last word up with that 4 in the middle they put it at the start..

one thing im not getting with this class, is that if these are such potent opioids, why isnt every junkie in the world stocked with a life supply.. as in, 1mg can be lethal, youd make up 1kg and that would supply a whole nation!

or do these things like fenatyl simulate the effects of opiates but not satisfy cravings for real opiates
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 10:50:34 AM by Shake »

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 11:37:20 AM »
no these type of things have to be treated with respect  (test them on people who owe you money.)
just like atara suggested.
why the world is'nt stocked with drugs like this?
simple, the cartels control these kind of things, step on thier business, you better have an army.

atara

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 04:51:44 AM »
With these compounds, how about replacing the ester with a propanoyl group to something like this:

http://its.goofyti.me/u/http://i.imgur.com/rscdR.gif

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 05:02:43 AM »
that was what i was talking about reversed propanoyl esters at the 4 position.
but amandatoic esters are even more potent than that.
seems i have figured out over the years how to engineer super opiods which may be my downfall, i fear.

akcom

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 05:09:34 AM »
what is amandatoic?
Get a job at GSK.  They'd love to hear about the next oxycodone I'm sure

jon

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akcom

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2011, 08:37:43 AM »
ah, the adamantyl is really curious.  They use it in synthesis sometimes in place phenyl groups because it exhbiits "3d aromaticity"  also in ligand design in TMC because its of intermediate bulk and electronic properties.  Is that stuff easy to get?  I can't really say I know much about its commercial availability or use synthesis really

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 05:27:22 PM »
i've seen it around.
also you can do this you can take piperidone react it with phenyl grignard quench with p-anhydride and n-alkylate that.
then test the ld50 (on mice of course) moneys if you can find them, even cheaper are junkies.
we don't really know the potency the propiophenone is 1/2 that of the benzylic alcohol and in humans phenoperidine is 10 times the potency of morphine
reverse the ester as a rule invreases the potency 20 fold so realistically it could be closer to 100 times stronger than morphine.
here is another patent this time in english describing the mannich reaction on nor-pethidine.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 04:35:02 AM by jon »

Balkan Bonehead

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 01:16:53 AM »
Would you happen to have a literature synthesis of the reversed ester analogue of phenoperidine, jon? According to g00gle, it is 3000x demerol and the 3-phenyl-aminopropan-3-ol needed is easily made by aminomethylation of styrene. It isn't obvious to me, however, how to avoid the concurrent esterification of the N-phenylpropanol alcohol group.

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2011, 01:48:06 AM »
yes in fact i do pertinent question
to answer your question on the scheme the mannich reaction is performed on the 4-phenyl-4-piperidinol with paraformaldehyde and acetophenone.
this yeilds a propiophenone which is pretty good in it's own right.
then the esterification is carried out then, the ketone is reduced with nabh4.
the acetyl ester of the benzylic alcohol at carbon 3 is actually stronger than the alcohol.
i would just do this react some alpha-methylstyrene with formaldehyde and ammonium chloride.
distill off the 12% 4-phenylpiperidine-4-ol
take the remaning mixture and convert it to the tetrahydropyridine with h2so4 then  hydrobrominate that and boil it in water to get the remaining stuff.
of course for something this potent, who cares if you only get 12% from common industrial chemicals?
 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 04:20:22 AM by jon »

Balkan Bonehead

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2011, 04:15:02 AM »
the ester is actually stronger than the alcohol.
Cool, I guess there is little point in stopping the diester from forming then. 8)

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2011, 04:22:47 AM »
no read the paper the propionophenone is made then the piperidinol is esterified and that is a really good analgesic in it's own right.
but if you wanted to juice it up you could reduce the ketone and then esterify with acetic anhydride to make some kind of elephant tranquillizer.
the idea it to use common everyday industrial chemicals.

Balkan Bonehead

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2011, 05:44:02 AM »
I realize that is the literature synth, but my point is that if 1-phenyl-3-aminopropanol is used, e.g. in the a-methylstyrene+formalin synthesis, then the N-phenylpropanol will be esterified during the reaction due to the conditions. However, if that ester is more active, there is no point in trying to remove it.

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2011, 06:25:56 AM »
well there are contradictory studies some say the benzylic ester is inactive and others say it's even more active.

the propionoxy ester of the benzylic alcohol is 1500 times stronger than pethidine so that may be the way to go.
according to this reference.
found on page 238

P A J Janssen, N B Eddy, J Med Pharm Chem 2, 31 (1960)

found in the book linked above 'opiod analgesics'

of course in life it can't be that easy.


actually i spotted a problem already with that scheme.
in the triazine synthesis with formalin and the amino alcohol the aldehyde would form a ketal with the benzylic alcohol which could throw a wrench in the plans.
probably what would happen is the ketal would split up under the acid conditions of the reaction.
then the excess aldehyde would undergo a prins reaction with the styrene forming a dioxolane by-product and lower yields.

it may be possible to control the formation of the trialkyltriazine because nitrogen is a stronger nucleophile it would react faster with the aldehyde.
so the formalin could be added portionwise and with exacting stochiometry to prevent this side reaction

looks like the existance of 1,3,5 hexahydrotrialkyltrizines of amino alcohols disprooves my objection.

http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB0425698.htm
interesting a one step synthesis to the most powerful demerol analouge known to man.
what a possiblity.

The Aminomethylation of Styrene. A New Synthesis of 3-Amino-1-phenylpropanol
S. L. Meisel, J. J. Dickert Jr., H. D. Hartough
J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1956, 78 (18), pp 4782–4783
DOI: 10.1021/ja01599a064
Publication Date: September 1956

this is the iupac name: 3-Amino-1-phenyl-propan-1-ol
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 01:02:56 AM by jon »

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2011, 05:56:12 AM »
here is the janseen paper i referenced

it says the ester is about as potent as the alcohol so indeed this could be a one step jackpot.

compound 39 is the ester it says about 3080 times the potency of pethidine probably 600 times stronger than morphine not too shabby.

in the second paper attached there is proof that one can use the schmidle and mansfield scheme for this substance.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 11:30:07 PM by jon »

Balkan Bonehead

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2011, 03:11:56 AM »
It looks like purification might be a problem, though. That di-ester is a rather large molecule, so might boil at an excessive temperature for vacuum distillation. These reversed esters decompose to the alkene if heated too strongly.

jon

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Re: phenoperidines
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2011, 04:20:53 AM »
yeah i was thinking the same thing myself.
looks like you would have to get busy with the chromatography column.
but doing that in one step would be a mess because of all the polymeric by-products.
i think this is why in the second paper they prefer to use multiple steps.