Author Topic: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines  (Read 1209 times)

Tsathoggua

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Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« on: May 24, 2011, 09:27:41 PM »
What effect does the use of different amines have upon the yield of the henry reaction between a benzaldehyde (both benzaldehyde itself and substituted benzaldehydes with one or more methoxy or methyl groups on the phenyl ring) and a nitroalkane?

Reduction, theoretically, performed using LAH.

Shulgin uses ammonium acetate (anhydrous) usually, but what I wish to know, is exactly what role that amine plays in respect to the yield of the nitroalkene, and reduction thereof to end target compound?

Such amines to consider are ammonium acetate, TETA, ethylenediamine, anhydrous ammonium benzoate, ammonium propionate etc.

And what of inorganic bases? would an additional base even be needed if say, NaH were used for reduction? LiAlH4 is pretty basic isn't it?
NaOH or carbonate have the risk of forming an explosive, quite sensitive nitronate salt as a byproduct and should be avoided of course. But perhaps sodamide, potassium amide (formed by passing ammonia over molten Na or potassium metal)

Particularly interested in TETA.

Does the use of different bases have much effect on yield in this reaction? And for that matter, does the PKb of the base used matter much? AFAIK its catalytic in nature and small quantities of base are needed.

Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

salat

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 10:22:50 PM »
I don't have the answers you seek.
I searched my files to see what I have on that reaction and found a cool sounding Henry reaction synthesis for the microwave.

Microwave-Assisted Henry Reaction:  Solventless Synthesis of Conjugated Nitroalkenes
Rajender S. Varma,  Rajender Dahiyal, and Sudhir Kumar
Abstract: In a solventless system and under microwave irradiation, nitroaikanes react with
arylaldehydes in the presence of a catalytic amount of ammonium acetate to afford, in one step,
conjugated nitroalkenes without the isolation of intermediary ~-nitro alcohols.

Salat

Also found this from a hive archive:
KG-60-NEt2 as Henry reaction catalyst
From GC_MS, HTML by metanoid
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The following article might be interesting for some bees. It also includes the procedure to make the catalyst and references to several other interesting articles (interesting in the meaning of Henry reaction catalysts).

Use of heterogeneous catalyst KG-60-NEt2 in Michael and Henry reactions involving nitroalkanes

Tetrahedron Letters 44 (2003) 2271-2273

Abstract

The N,N-diethylpropylamine supported on amorphous silica (KG-60-NEt2) catalyses the formation of carbon_carbon bonds by nitroalkanes through both the nitroaldol (Henry) and Michael reactions. The catalyst shows general utility with a variety of electrophilic acceptors. Moreover, the catalyst can be reused for two further cycles without loss of the activity.

Article

Nitroalkanes are very important starting materials in the formation of carbon-carbon bond. The nitronate anion can react under basic conditions with saturated carbonyl compounds or with electron poor alkenes leading to the nitroaldol (Henry) reaction or to the Michael reaction, respectively, with the formation of di- or polyfunctionalized nitroderivatives.15 The most commonly applied protocols to perform the above reactions require the use of basic catalysts under both homogeneous and heterogeneous conditions.5

Due to the great applicability of the Henry6 and the Michael5 reactions involving nitroalkanes, both these transformations were developed extensively, even under sonication7 or high pressure,8 and, although each of these methodologies has been widely studied, very often these suffer different drawbacks such as: (i, for the Henry reaction) low yields, retroaldol reaction, the formation of side products by the aldol condensation and Cannizzaro reaction of aldehyde or olefin formation; (ii, for the Michael reaction) low yields, the efficiency with a restricted class of electrophilic olefins, the need of ultrasound, and/or the demand of a large excess of nitro compound that, for valuable nitro derivatives, is a serious economic drawback. Consequently, the development of a new general, efficient catalyst for the title reactions is welcomed, especially a new heterogeneous one. Unfortunately, as clearly stated in recent reviews and reports, the classical synthetic routes are responsible for the production of large amounts of pollutant by-products.9 This drawback can be partly overcome by replacing stoichiometric processes with cleaner catalytic alternatives.10 Moreover, a further step toward environmentally friendly synthetic routes is represented by the application of solid catalysts 11 and by the development of solventless processes.12

In connection with our interest in the application of heterogeneous catalysis for fine chemicals preparation 13 with particular interest in the organicinorganic hybrid materials,14 we planned to find a new heterogeneous catalyst able to promote both (i) the Henry reaction and (ii) the Michael reaction of nitroalkanes to electron-poor alkenes under solventless conditions. To this end we tested different heterogeneous catalysts and, after several trials, we found that KG-60-NEt2 produced good results for both reactions. As shown in Table 1, alfa-nitroalcohols 3 (Scheme 1) are produced in good to excellent yields; it should be noted that the very mild reaction conditions prevent typical side reactions such as the retro-aldol reaction 5,6 or the dehydration of the 2-nitro alcohol into nitroalkene.15

The present method affords a diastereomeric mixture of nitroalkanols according to the most part of the reported procedures; this seems not to be a problem since the main uses are the conversion into alfa-nitro ketones 2,3,5,16 or conjugated nitroalkenes,5,17 in which at least one stereogenic centre is lost.

Synthetic results of conjugate addition of nitroalkanes to electron-poor olefins are reported in Table 2. A wide range of nitroalkanes and electron poor olefins underwent Michael addition by this procedure affording products 5 (Scheme 2) in good to excellent yield.

The different reactivity is obviously ascribable to the different activation of the electron-poor carbon-carbon double bond.18 Concerning the role played by the catalyst, as expected a possible diffusion effect into the pores of the catalyst is excluded due to the fact that the KG-60 silica is a macroporous material (pore distribution: 60-100 nm).

Finally, we faced the problem of catalyst recycling: at the end of the model reaction between 1-nitropropane and methyl vinyl ketone, the catalyst was filtered on a Buechner funnel, washed with dichloromethane, dried under vacuum and reused. The catalyst could be utilized with similar results for at least two further cycles (reaction: 80%; 1st recycle 78%; 2nd recycle: 79%).

In conclusion we have shown the utilization of KG-60-NEt2 as solid and reusable, solventless, catalyst in the formation of the carbon-carbon bond through nitroalkanes via the Henry and Michael reactions. It is noteworthy that the catalyst shows general applicability and good efficiency with all substrates utilized in both reactions.

Preparation of KG-60-NEt2:
The preparation of silica supported N,N-diethylpropylamine was performed following a modification of a procedure reported in the literature.19The KG-60 (5 g) was treated with N,N-diethyl-3-aminopropyltrimethoxysilane (45 mmol, 7.9 mL) in dry toluene (75 mL) at reflux for 24 h. After cooling, the mixture was filtered on a Buechner funnel and the solid washed with a Soxhlet apparatus for 16 h with a mixture of dichloromethane/diethyl ether 1/1. Characteristics of KG-60-NEt2 are the following: loading=0.99 mmol/g, surface area=309 m2/g, pore total volume=0.15 cm3/g, pore distribution 50-100 nm.

Typical procedure (Henry reaction) for the formation of 3g:


Nitroethane (157 mg, 2.1 mmol) was mixed with the hydrocinnamaldehyde (262 mg, 2.1 mmol), then, the catalyst KG-60-NEt2 (0.21 g) was added. After standing (stirring can be avoided since it does not change the efficiency of the reaction) at room temperature for the appropriate time (see Table 1) the mixture was extracted with EtOAc (5×20 mL), the catalyst was filtered off, the organic layer was evaporated and the crude product was purified by flash chromatography (cyclohexane/EtOAc, 7:3) giving 336 mg (80%) of the pure 3g.

Typical procedure (Michael reaction) for the formation of 5b:


1-Nitropropane [187 mg, 2.1 mmol, (4.2 mmol when the starting nitroalkane is nitroethane)] was mixed with methyl vinyl ketone (122 mg, 2.1 mmol), then, the catalyst KG-60-NEt2 (0.42 g) was added. After standing (stirring can be avoided since it does not change the efficiency of the reaction) at room temperature for the appropriate time (see Table 1) the mixture was extracted with EtOAc (5×20 mL), the catalyst was filtered off, the organic layer was evaporated and the crude product was purified by flash chromatography (cyclohexane/EtOAc, 8:2), affording 247 mg (80%) of the pure 5b.

Table 1.

 R R1 Time (h)(a) Yield(b)
a Me Me2CH 24 92
b MeCH2 Me2CH 19 78
c H Me2CH 16 77
d Me Me(CH2)2 24 75
e MeCH2 Me(CH2)2 22 94
f Me Me(CH2)3 15 95
g MeCH2 Me(CH2)3 14 75
h Me Ph(CH2)2 5 80

(a) Selected to avoid by-products formation.

(b) Yield of pure isolated product.

Table 2.

 R R1 EWG Time (h)(a) Yield(b) (%)

a Me H MeCO 3 75
b MeCH2 H MeCO 5 80
c Me Me MeCO 5 82
d Me(CH2)2 H MeCO 5 85
e Me(CH2)2 H EtCO 6 83
f Me H PhSO2 25 81
g Me Me PhSO2 25 90
h Me(CH2)2 H PhSO2 28 65
i MeCH2 H COOMe 26 61
j Me(CH2)2 H COOMe 30 62
k Me(CH2)2 H CN 15 58
l Me(CH2)4 H CN 16 56



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References
[1]Seebach, D.; Colvin, E. W.; Leher, F.; Weller, F.; Weller, T. Chimia (1979), 33, 118.
[2]Rosini, G.; Ballini, R. Synthesis (1988), 833-847.
[3] Rosini, G.; Ballini, R.; Petrini, M.; Marotta, E.; Righi, P. Org. Prep. Proc. Int. (1990), 22, 707-746.
[4] 4. Ballini, R.; Bosica, G. Recent Development in Organic Chemistry; Transworld Research Network: Trivandrum, (1997); Vol. 1, pp. 11-24.
[5] Ono, N. In The Nitro Group in Organic Synthesis; Feuer, H., Ed.; Wiley-VCH: New York, (2001).
[6] (a) Rosini, G. In Comprehensive Organic Synthesis; Trost, B. M., Ed.; Pergamon: New York, (1992); pp. 321340; (b) Luzzio, F. A. Tetrahedron (2001), 57, 915-945.
[7] Jouglet, B.; Bianco, L.; Rousseau, G. Synlett (1991), 907-908.
[8] (a) Sera, A.; Takagi, K.; Katayama, H.; Yamada, H. J. Org. Chem. (1988), 53, 1157-1161; (b) Misumi, Y.; Bulman, R. A.; Matsumoto, W. Heterocyclic (2002), 56, 599 606.
[9] Clark, J. H. Green Chem. (1999), 1, 18.
[10] Sheldon, R. Chem. Ind. (London ) (1997), 1215.
[11] Corma, A. Chem. Rev. (1995), 95, 559-614.
[12] Thomas, J. M.; Raja, R.; Sankar, G.; Johnson, B. F. G.; Lewis, D. W. Chem. Eur. J. (2001), 7, 2973-2978.
[13] a) Ballabeni, M.; Ballini, R.; Bigi, F.; Maggi, R.; Parrini, M.; Predieri, G.; Sartori, G. J. Org. Chem. (1999), 64, 1029-1032; (b) Ballini, R.; Bigi, F.; Gogni, E.; Maggi, R.; Sartori, G. J. Catal. (2000), 191, 348-353; (c) Ballini, R.; Bosica, G.; Maggi, R.; Ricciutelli, M.; Righi, P.; Sartori, G.; Sartorio, R. Green Chem. (2001), 3, 178-180; (d) Ballini, R.; Bosica, G.; Fiorini, D.; Maggi, R.; Righi, P.; Sartori, G.; Sartorio, R. Tetrahedron Lett. (2002), 43, 8445-8447.
[14] Demicheli, G.; Maggi, R.; Mazzacani, A.; Righi, P.; Sartori, G.; Bigi, F. Tetrahedron Lett. (2001), 42, 2401-2404.
[15] Rosini, G.; Ballini, R.; Petrini, M.; Sorrenti, P. Synthesis (1985), 515-517.
[16] a) Me`lot, J.-M.; Texier-Boullet, F.; Foucaud, A. Tetrahedron Lett. (1986), 27, 493; (b) Hurd, C. D.; Nilson, M. E. J. Org. Chem. (1955), 20, 927-936.
[17] (a) Barrett, A. G. M.; Graboski, G. G. Chem. Rev. (1986), 86, 751-762; (b) Kabalka, G. W.; Varma, R. S. Org. Prep. Proc. Int. (1987), 19, 283-328; (c) Ballini, R.; Castagnani, R.; Petrini, M. J. Org. Chem. (1992), 57, 2160-2162; (d) Ballini, R.; Palestini, C. Tetrahedron Lett. (1994), 35, 5731-5734; (e) Perekalin, V. V.; Lipina, E. S.; Berestovitskaya, V. M.; Efremov, D. A. Nitroalkenes; John Wiley & Sons: Chichester, (1994).
[18] Shenhav, H.; Rappoport, Z.; Patai, S. J. Chem. Soc. (B) (1970), 469-476.
[19] Cauvel, A.; Renard, G.; Brunel J. Org. Chem. (1997), 62, 749-751.

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« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 10:24:43 PM by salat »
Salat

lugh

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2011, 10:28:52 PM »
A post from the Hive:

         
lugh
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03-25-03 22:04
No 421301
                      Knoevenagel Catalysts
(Rated as: excellent)      

From the Organic Reactions article by Jones smile

Selection of Experimental Conditions

The most generally used catalyst is still pyridine with or without added piperidine, while for the production of arylidenemalonic acids alcoholic ammonia is preferred. Piperidine or other secondary amines are suitable for the condensations which involve malonic esters, malononitrile, beta-diketones, beta-ketonic esters, and methyl groups activated by attachment to a heterocyclic or nitro aromatic system. A study of condensations between ketones and ethyl cyanoacetate led to the suggestion that ammonium acetate is the best catalyst for condensations with hindered ketones, and primary amines, especially benzylamine, for unhindered ketones and aldehydes. A startling increase in yield in condensations involving ketones carrying other functional groups (notably ester groups) was obtained by the use of piperidine containing a little benzylamine. The cyclopentanone condensed with ethyl cyanoacetate to give the unsaturated compound in 55% yield with piperidine as catalyst. With added benzylamine the yield was 89%. Secondary amines are on the whole less successful in condensations involving aliphatic nitro compounds, where the catalyst of choice is a primary amine or ammonium acetate in boiling benzene. In a comparative study the latter was found superior. The Schiff bases can be used without catalysts.

The most significant modification of the Knoevenagel reaction has been the introduction by Cope of ammonium and amine acetates as catalysts. They are used with a solvent mixture of acetic acid (minor component) and some water-immiscible solvent such as benzene, chloroform, or toluene (major component).  By boiling the reaction mixture and using a Dean-Stark water separator the reaction can be accelerated and the progress of the reaction observed. Raja has studied the yields obtained with a variety of second solvents and has found the most effective to be benzene and toluene, followed by chloroform and hexane. The Cope modification has proved most valuable for condensations involving cyanoacetic esters, but it has been used successfully for reactions with malononitrile, malonic esters, cyanoacetamide, acetoacetic esters, alkyl- and aryl-sulfonylacetic esters, and aliphatic nitro compounds. Variations in the acid component include the use of benzoic and caproic acids to minimize the loss of amine salt by amide formation during prolonged reactions. Increase in yield by reduction in acetamide formation has also been achieved by adding the ammonium acetate catalyst at intervals during lengthy reactions. In some cases, however, this has been reported to be without effect. The suggestion that amine salts are active catalysts has led to the use of amino acids. An extensive range of amino acids has been tested and four selected as superior. All give yields of the same order as piperidinium acetate under Cope conditions in the condensation between acetone and ethyl cyanoacetate. The four selected (para-aminophenol, alpha-aminophenyl-acetic acid, beta-alanine, and epsilon-aminocaproic acid) were used with acetic acid and benzene; it was found that with increasing amounts of p-aminophenol the acetic acid became unnecessary. A number of successful conden-sations have been performed with weakly basic resins such as Amberlite IR-4B and Dowex 3, preferably in the acetate or benzoate form. The resins have the advantage of easy removal by filtration after completion of the reaction. The use of triethanolamine to obtain high yields of beta, gamma-unsaturated acid in the malonic acid condensation has been mentioned. No general rules regarding temperature of reaction can be given,. although it has been reported that a number of aromatic aldehydes failed to condense with malonic acid at -10° to -6°. The proportion of catalyst used varies considerably from a large excess (as with pyridine in the Verley-Doebner modification of the cinnamic acid synthesis) to a few drops, as commonly with piperidine. A number of studies of individual reactions with the intention of discovering the optimum amount of catalyst have not led to any general rule. In some cases 0.1 to 0.2 mole of catalyst to each mole of aldehyde has been used; in others a 1: 1 ratio; in others a large excess of catalyst. The usual proportion of ammonium acetate or amine acetate in the Cope modification is 0.2 mole to each mole of active methylene component. Variations in concentration of the acetic acid alter the yield in the condensation between ethyl pyruvate and ethyl cyanoacetate, the maximum yield being attained with a concentration of 0.075-0.1 M.  In the condensation of furfural with acetylacetone in water using glycine as catalyst the yield of condensation product rose with increasing concentration of catalyst, but this may have been due in part to a salting-out effect. A considerable increase in yield and in rate of reaction was achieved by application of high pressures (15,000 atmospheres) to the condensation between cyclopentanone and ethyl cyanoacetate. Using cyclohexanone the condensation could be achieved without the piperidine catalyst.

Catalysts Other Than Amines or Their Salts

Catalysts other than amines or their salts have been used frequently in condensation between aldehydes or ketones and active methylene compounds. Among the more common catalysts are caustic alkalies or sodium carbonate, the latter in what amounts to an extension of the aldol condensation; and, less often, quaternary ammonium hydroxides or strongly basic resins. An example of the use of quaternary ammonium hydroxide resins is the formation of the coumarin from ethyl acetoacetate and o-hydroxyacetophenone. Catalysis by sodium hydroxide is as common as the use of amines in the condensation of cyanoacetic acid with aldehydes. Sodium cyano-acetate, as synthesized in aqueous alkaline solution, can be used directly in the condensation. Condensations involving malonic esters have been performed with acetic anhydride or zinc chloride as catalyst, and a number of cases have been recorded for which the yields were higher with acetic anhydride than with piperidinium acetate. Potassium fluoride has been used extensively in recent years as a catalyst for condensations involving malonic esters and cyanoacetic esters. Most of the yields reported are lower than those obtained by using conventional Knoevenagel catalysts. Titanium tetrachloride has been used to catalyze the condensation of aldehydes with ethyl malonate, ethyl acetoacetate, and ethyl cyanoacetate.

Acta Chem Scand 3 (1949)
Bull Soc Chim France 797 (1956)
Ber 37 4502 (1904)
Chem Rev 32 373 (1943)
Compt Rend 246 3079 (1958)
Ind Eng Chem 44 2867 (1952)
JACS 56 1556 (1934)
JACS 59 2327 (1937)
JACS 63 3452 (1941)
JACS 80 4949 (1958)
J Ind Chem Soc 9 311 (1932)
J Ind Chem Soc 30 206, 665 (1953)
J Ind Chem Soc 34 537 (1957)
J Sci Res Inst 52 99 (1958)
J Sci Res Inst 52 105 (1958)
J Sci Res Inst 52 112 (1958)
J Sci Res Inst 52 151 (1958)
J Sci Res Inst 53 19 (1959)
JCS 844 (1927)
JCS 74 (1931)
JCS 876 (1937)
JCS 3155 (1951)
JOC 15 388 (1950)
JOC 18 3 (1953)
JOC 26 4874 (1961)
JOC 27 3505 (1962)
Proc Acad Sci, Agra Oudh 4 290 (1934/5)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond


which is from the article by Jones in Volume 15 of Organic Reactions  ;) As far as the amine, the one using Al-Hg that is known as the Xmas reduction:

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/nitrostyrene.reduction.alhg.html

gives a higher yield 8)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 10:43:06 PM by lugh »
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 11:28:10 PM »
I really would sooner avoid Al-Hg rdxn, mercury is evil.

Then again, plenty of people say so am I, but true or not, I would have to dispose of it somehow, and I do care about the environment, not the people that live in it, but just what is lived IN.

Does LAH rdxn give a lower yield than Al amalgam? At any rate, LAH will be the agent used to effect the reduction of the nitroalkene.

As for amine acetates...hmm.....is the acetate bit important, perhaps buffering the rxn? the canizzaro rxn is base-catalysed, and occurs in carbonyl compounds lacking an alpha proton, benzaldehydes in particular...so presumably, I would think, the stronger the base, the more likely canizzaro side products will be formed, I.E the benzylic alcohol and benzoic acid?

Think the acetate salt TETA would be a usable catalyst with good yields?


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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

lugh

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 11:59:25 PM »
LAH is inherently much more dangerous to work with than Al-Hg since it's pyrophoric when finely powdered since it reacts in an exothermic manner with atmospheric moisture ;) Yields reported on Rhodium state that yields are similar, but Hyperlab Bee number two stated he wasn't going to use LAH anymore, probably due to the higher cost of LAH  :P  Methods are known for making the Al-Hg environmentally safe:

http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,520.msg5666.html#msg5666

so it's actually safer than many think  :P  A safe method for crushing LAH to a fine powder is depicted  8)

« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 12:02:24 AM by lugh »
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 03:12:43 AM »
TY Lugh, will look at that later.

LAH is definately the method to be used in this case...its already on its way.

Cleaner workup and no fucking about making it environmentally safe.
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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

Sedit

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2011, 05:15:11 AM »
I really want to have a discussion about this in another thread but I will start my position here.... Fuck then enviroment, I use to be all over that kind of stuff till I put it into perspective. I thought long and hard for years on what to do with waste until I realized its best put at the bottom of a pond.

Sounds sick but its true. I may start a thread on this if someone does not do so yet but considering the small amount of Hg used by chemist there are far greater things to worry about and odds are by the time the Hg makes its way up the chain the industrial Hg uses have already diluted any TRACE amount you may have place in there with some super mega huge Al/hg run.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

Tsathoggua

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2011, 11:45:59 AM »
I find that attitude abhorrent, and the actions you practise and advocate beyond vile and disgusting by orders of magnitude.


It is true that Big Industry pisses all over the regulations in place (or perhaps, that SHOULD be in place) and they often get away with it. In the case of heavy metals, some real nasty accidents have occurred, such as minamata disease, where Hg got dumped into the ocean, then people ate the local wildlife, or the rather nasty sounding itai-itai disease (japanese for 'ouch, ouch' due to the agonizing bone pains those afflicted had to put up with) when there was a similar release of Cd due to mining for IIRC, Au, victims ended up with a nasty mixture of osteomalacia, possibly pulmonary injury, and kidney failure).

Now I couldn't give a flying rat fuck about those people, nor nigh on any others. I would gleefully pull the trigger that wiped out perhaps 75% of the world's population and dance upon the mass heap of skulls piled up on the mass graves. As long as it didn't involve nuclear weapons, or biological weapons (save perhaps short-lived environmentally unstable weaponized viral agents, in cases where there is no chance of the virus causing continued environmental contamination or becoming endemic)

But I would have to think of the animals, and plant life that could be affected, hell, I wouldn't even use lead bullets to do the dirty work mopping up the survivors, most likely high-yield thermobaric munitions to wipe out villages and cities after the desirable populace had been evacuated, and steel bullets and bladed weapons to mop up the survivors.

Chucking Hg, Pb compounds, Cd, Be, or whatever into the local canal or pond is beyond the pale sedit, it really is not right.
Whilst its true I have given some stuff, like MeOH in small quantities, acetone, even, to my guilt, small quantities of CHCl2 and CCl3 (talking tens of ml not liters), I wouldn't just toss out heavy metal waste that I couldn't recover the metals from, but burn off the organics if possible and take the waste to the local dump, where they have facilities for disposing of it properly, rather than a lake, or landfill.

Those heavy metals don't just poison wildlife then bugger off, they STAY there, and bioaccumulate, the higher the predator, the more lower life that ingested the poison they eat, and the more it concentrates. Look at tuna, marlin, shark, swordfish etc. as used for food, they now advise pregnant women to avoid those larg, top-predator fish entirely during pregnancy due to the high levels of mercury (present as Hg(Me) or possibly Hg(2Me), two of the most vicious, insidious, virulent neurotoxins known to man (look up what happened to karen wetterhahn after exposure, through gloves, nearly instantly taken off of maybe a couple of hundred microliters of dimethylmercury)

Yes this shit gets dumped by those arsewipe big companies, it shouldn't, but it does. BUT, need you, me, or anyone else stoop to the same base level they do? If you don't give a toss about the environment, and you should do, consider this:

Clandestine or hobby chemist dumps a bucket full of contaminated filth in the local pond. There may or may not be more clandestine/hobby chemists around, but there may well be, each dumps their weekly bucket of filth into the pond, after their speed/MDMA cook etc, and sooner or later, nothing lives there anymore, or maybe they all still do, bar one rare, sensitive species, that you just contributed to knocking down several pegs on the CITES list. Or maybe, just maybe, you contaminated that one pond that was home to a species with an extremely localised distribution, and just slaughtered the very last of them.

Not only that, but it makes you, me, and home chemists everywhere look like junky scum, weather or not we are actually engaged in the production of drugs of any sort, recreational or otherwise. The authorities aren't picky, if they can make money by destroying somebodys life, they will do. Don't give them an excuse (short of cooking up what you want to cook up, money or otherwise, I don't care, that is the business of the individual), but when it comes to pouring nasty toxic waste into the environment-I have one thing, and one thing only to say.

DON'T FUCKING DO IT! IT IS WRONG!
Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

lugh

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2011, 03:02:12 PM »
Let's try to get some perspective here:

https://the-collective.ws/forum/index.php?topic=17316.0

and not get so upset about a difference of opinion  ;)  Methods have been posted for dealing with the consequences of what's been discussed here, it's up to the reader to decide whether such efforts are worth the trouble  :-X  There's no point in arguing about this issue  8)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond

Sedit

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2011, 03:04:48 PM »
I use to feel the same way, I really did until I really thought about it on another level without the knee jerk response society has trained me to have when dealing with "toxic" materials.

Like I said, I will state my full logic in a different thread sometime in the future but for now I don't want to lead a fine thread astray. I just see it like this, One gram of Hg is alot for a home chemist to be using. At the bottom of a lake it will have a very very slow dissolution rate. It will start in the bacteria and work its way up the food chain. By the time that entire little 1 gram blob is consumed the rest of the Hg will be spread from here to china is extremely trace amounts. Basicly figure the math on how much Hg would be contained in one square mile if one gram of Hg was equally spread over the entire world. Hg is not THAT toxic, its in your mouth more then likely right now, its more then likely in your water in doses greater then what that one gram would accumulate to. People use to drink it as immortality potions. Workers use to lay in vats of it.... ect...ect.. It is scary stuff but its highly over hyped. Dimethylmercury has given it its scare factor.


PS: Lugh, no arguing. discussing ;D. I just feel that reducing it and sealing it up in an amalgum would release more of it into the enviroment then that single blob on the bottom of a pond.
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pyramid

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2011, 04:03:07 PM »
So is this about condensation or reduction?
Well since reduction was talked about I'm wondering if you are familiar with the method using NaBH4 then Zn/HCl one pot. This works for nitrostyrene/propene and butene, definitely easier and safer than LAH. The reaction is in IPA with a little water, yields 50% and up. Usually 60 on most things.
Plus it can reduce halogenated nitrostyrene, no need for anhydrous ether or THF.
Basically:
NaBH4 in solution of IPA and about 10% water. Nitro compound added portion wise, no need for cooling it will go to about 40-50C. After addition stirred 30mins, then in an ice bath slowly quench with GAA. Add 7-10eq Zn relative to starting compound and drop wise over an hour add 3eq aq HCl. Stir 2 hrs more or until complete. Filter, basify, etc etc

I've used this for alot of nitrostyrenes, it works great. I have not yet tried on a nitropropene but have been told it works for sure. Soon i will try on a series on nitrobutenes, I have also been told this works and have seen examples...

For catalysts, always EDDA and methylamine acetate, 10-15mol %. Never used anything else. Well i have (ammonium acetate) but it sucks.
For 2C-T-x nitrostyrenes reaction should be followed with TLC because it happens quickly (EDDA). 45mins at 60-70 usually does it. Better to be under than over, then recrystallize.

Edit: yields. Methylamine acetate usually 70% min, in MeOH. For EDDA it differs. For 2,5-DMNS and 4-Me-2,5- I have got 90-95 and 85-89% respectively. It works great there, and for most 2C-T-x it is around 70-75.
Really i have never come under about 65%, and that was on some 3,4,5- benzaldehydes.
I like these catalysts alot, they are simple to use. The EDDA I just make in situ, excess GAA in the alcoholic solution of benzaldehyde then add the amine.
Same idea with methylamine acetate, I add the solution of MeNH2 in MeOH to the benzaldehyde with excess GAA.
I've never used any other catalyst beside the ammonium acetate (only couple of times until i found out it sucks) and these are easily obtainable, unlike any others like butylamine, propylamine, cyclohexylamine...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 04:12:34 PM by pyramid »

letters

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2011, 05:21:14 PM »
I also wonder like pyramid if this is about reduction or condensation.
Regarding reductions -
LAH is NASTY! only those with balls of steel or shit for brains will work it in anything larger then microscale. Ive witnessed first hand the effects of a LAH mishap, and let me tell you, it aint a pretty sight. plus, considering all the positive progress made in nitrostyrene group reduction, it seems stupid and un-needed to LAH.
for nitroethenes (commonly called nitrostyrenes, condensation product of benzaldehydes and nitromethane) reduce well with Zn/HCl all the way to the primary amine. no need to reduce the double bond first. Works well both for 2,5-DMNS and 3,4,5-TMNS.
for nitrostyrenes, you must first reduce the double bond with borohydride as pyramid mentioned. failture to do will result in a mixture of oxime, ketone and maybe slight amounts of primary amine. Distillation of the resulting nitroalkane is recommended. pure nitroalkanes give better yields when reduced to the amine via Zn/HCl or Pd catalyzed CTH.
Pd Catalyzed CTH - Pd/C is used to reduce the nitro group much like Zn/HCl, post double bond reduction. Ammonium formate is an efficient hydrogen donor. lower alcohols are the solvent of choice. The reaction is very clean and workup is super easy. No reflux is needed.

regarding the condensation of benzaldehydes with nitroalkanes -
EDDA (ethylenediammonium diacetate, either prepared prior to reaction as a solid, or insitu) is indeed a good catalyst for the preparation of 2,5-DMNS. when done in isopropanol, the whole reaction mixture solidifies to a mass of orange crystals in an hour or less. I usually let it sit in the fridge overnight t omake sure all is out.
MeNH2.acetate is a very active koevengel catalyst. it is so active that too long reflux, or too much catalyst will induce dimerization and higher order polymerization. with benzaldehyde and nitroethane this is evident by a red color that develops. the use of a drying agent helps to reduce the temperature needed, the time needed and the yields by way of shifting the equilibrium to the right. this has a much more pronounced effect on nitropropenes then on nitrostyrenes.
Other amine acetates are adequate as well. Butylamine acetate works very well for the slow r.t. generation of nitroalkenes, usually taking a few weeks, but yields very well. just mix ingrediants and let it sit in the dark for a while. other amines such as cyclohexylamine acetate also work well.
the use of azeotropic drying techniques (with toluene or benzene as solvent) are also appropriate to drive the water away.
IIRC there are also those who advocate the use of short microwave bursts to effect reaction progress. Lugh is the one to ask about this i think.

Tsathoggua

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2011, 05:40:42 PM »
I have no problems if I wanted butylamine, propylamine, cyclohexylamine etc. Reductive amination of the ketones appropriate to each with borohydride etc should do it, although personally I would just shoot an email to a friendly supplier and ensure an a high-purity fine grade reagent.

So EDDA is good? ethylaminediamine diacetate, I assume?

I specifically want to know about TETA and TETA-tetraacetate if possible.

And what I want to know, is if there is a chart anywhere that shows bases used with different benzaldehydes/nitro compounds, preferably using the same nitro/aldehyde combination and different amines, and several different combinations.

E.g say, benzaldehyde with MeNO2, EtNO2, PrNO2, iPrNO2, then the results of condensation with ammonium acetate, butylamine, sec-butylamine-tBuNH3, EDDA, etc.a variety of inorganic and organic bases.

Is there any such work available? even if it isn't comprehensive, I used benzaldehyde itself and those amines merely as an example to illustrate the sort of text I would like to see if its available, no need to bust a bollock trying to find something for those prescise reactants.

I'm open to any such reactants, so long as they use the same aldehyde and nitro, with different bases.

I am indeed, Pyramid, talking of condensation, only groups present are 4-Me and 2,5-MeO.
Reduction will be performed using LAH, dissolved in THF that has been boiled to degas it from any atmospheric O2, dried over alkali metal scraps, sparged with argon, and conducted under a slow continuous stream of dried argon (led through 98% H2SO4, then through a drying tube with NaOH or CaCl2 (anhydrous)

Not requisite for handling LAH, so it seems, but it is the experimenter's first reduction ever performed using that reagent, and yield is important to the experimenter in question, as is thoroughness. Whilst not hugely costly, the aldehyde substrates aren't particularly cheap, they don't grow on trees, unless you are after syringaldehyde :P


Edit, as letters posted while I posted:

LAH will reduce the double bond as well as the nitro, in one step, as far as I am aware.

The MeNO2 and EtO2 are not impure homemade product, but Merck high-purity reagents, the experimenter does not currently have vac distillation capability, but isn't shy of doing a thorough rextylization. He is currently saving up for a vacuum pump, but is, sadly, an impoverished gentleman scientist, who cannot find paid, or even voluntary employment, not since he left his special school at 16, he is almost 25 now, and exists on shitty disability benefits and whatever he can eke out of his creativity.

That notwithstanding though, where yields are important, pure reagents will be used, and great care will be taken. Simple. Buggering. Well. As :D

I thought in the case of Henry rxn between a carbonyl and a nitroalkane that if formate or formic acid were around, then one would be asking for Canizzaro reaction to take place, giving the benzylic alcohol and benzoic acid as side products (which are not wanted, although would be recycled, of course!)
 
At any rate no borohydride, no dissolving metal reactions either, it is being reduced with LiAlH4/THF.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 05:49:46 PM by Tsathoggua »
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pyramid

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2011, 06:03:38 PM »
I can only comment on a couple of things.
I know condensation of 4-methyl-2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde works well with EDDA, with both nitromethane and nitroethane.
While it is nice to perform reductions with LAH (quite fun, invigorating process) if the experimenter intends on further reactions I would greatly recommend to forget LAH for reductions.
The experimenter obviously has sources, so he should get some NaBH4!
But hey, do a couple of reductions with the LAH and see how the yield goes. I guarantee the yield will be the same or better with NaBH4 and there is no need for dry solvents and inert atmospheres.
Also the NaBH4 Zn reduction works great for 4-Me-2,5-DMBA.

And the benzaldhydes are cheap if you don't buy them from suppliers, which isn't that smart anyway they are watched.
Go from 2-methylhydroquinone which is dirt cheap and methylate it, trimethyl phosphate or DMS work(don't know how MeI would go). Formylate with Sulfuric Duff which works for this substrate (or use POCl3/DMF), there is the benzaldehyde.
It is a cheap route, all the chemicals used in the processes have uses in other things too and a resourceful person can get them easily.

Of course though I can understand if you can't be bothered doing this but it's all suggestions, what I mention above works for sure, it is cheap and besides the methylating agent everything is quite obtainable.

Yes ethylenediammonium diacetate, good stuff. Try MeNH2.acetate too though some time! I'd like to hear about that.
 ;)

Good luck

Edit as you edited while i posted:
High purity products (benzaldehydes, nitroalkanes, everything) can be made at home easily. Just because it's self made does not mean it can't be pure. I'm not saying that's what you implied, but when watched reagents can be made easily in good purity I would say you should do it rather than buy them..even when you have a good source. Best advice that was ever given to me : Don't Risk Buying Watched Reagents!
Now, doesn't mean you can't get some ether and whatnot, even NaBH4 is so common it only falls somewhat under that advice...but EtNo2 and substituted aldehydes, that's what I take the advice for.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 06:09:11 PM by pyramid »

Tsathoggua

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2011, 08:12:55 PM »
Fucking fuck the fucked fucking fucker! I just lost a detailed, thought out post. Cunting  bloodyfucking son-of-a-poxridden crowbegotten rat bastard fucking FUCK! I hate it when that happens.

The experimenter's reasons for using 'proper' (although home baked goodies can be perfectly capable of meeting the high standards required, that just depends on the dedication of the chemist) reagents, is not lazyness, but borderline impoverishment. If that person were to have to buy hydroquinone, take to benzoquinone, wacker it, which means plat cat to buy/scrounge from bought car catalytic converters. DMF which means getting the MeOH and formic acid, to form methyl formate, to prepare it, then the preparation of alkylating agents, buying borohydride, or building a hydrogenator, etc. Then possibly silver salts, or whatever other nitrite for the nitroethane if the phenisopropylamine is desired or oxidising methylamine to nitromethane/distilling it from race fuel (which is shockingly hard to obtain actually, most places flat out refuse to ship pure nitro, nitro/MeOH mixtures or anything without castor oil in there anywhere but via very local post)

Experimenter doesn't possess a vacuum pump atm, although he is slaving with his nose over the grindstone to be able to afford one.

So buying those things are whilst luxuries perhaps, nescessities the experimenter cannot afford to pass up on. And As for the aldehydes....well there....he has his ways and he has is means to meet his ends, those who watch, do not have their eyes on everything everywhere at once, and there are enough good, honorable people who want to earn their daily crust just as much as the experimenter does, who are not chindians who cannot or will not tell their DOB-dragonFLY from their 2C-Bee.

But let us leave discussions of that nature at that and no more.

What I specifically want to know about the nature of the amine catalysts with respect to yield and rate of nitroalkene formation is this: what structure-activity relationship exists between the base (and their carboxylate salts) and both yield and speed of the courtship 'twixt nitroparaffin and that tasty 'lil carbonyl chick?

And for that matter, I see inorganic base carboxylate salts can be used. Have totally inorganic bases been tried? such as sodamide perhaps, or lithium nitride (although the latter is one big mean bastard of a superbase, not so sure it will play nice with the experimenter's lil lady but he could be wrong)


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I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

Sedit

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2011, 08:55:21 PM »
Limpet did you get that paper I posted for you over in the short question thread? It covers the various catalyst and bases used in deep detail. Everything you need to know about this reaction is contained in that paper.
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2011, 09:12:41 PM »
Nitro3.pdf?

If thats the one then yes I did, I have it loaded up on my acrobat reader right now, I just have a fag to smoke, a bowl of beef noodles to eat, and a load of metalwork to do.

I'll get some reading in while I nosh. Thanks, sedit.
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letters

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2011, 08:37:59 AM »
rhodium has a nice html with yields of various benzaldehydes with nitroalkanes and EDDA as amine salt catalyst. it can be found at h--p://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/edda.html
Here are my notes which i have on hand on general condensations. i cant seem to find the notes on 3,4,5-TMB.
2,5-Dimethoxybenzaldehyde : (ipa as rxn solvent)
EDDA(10mol%) + nitromethane, r.t. -> 95%-quantitative yield, recrystallized once from ipa.
EDDA(10mol%) + nitroethane, r.t.-reflux -> 50-60% yield, recrystallized from ipa.
EDDA(10mol%) + nitroethane + 4a mol sieves(40g/mol), 1hour reflux-> 80-90%, recrystallized once from ipa.
methylamine acetate (10mol%) + nitroethane, 45-60minutes reflux -> ~75% yield, recrystallized from ipa.
Benzaldehyde : (methanol or ipa as rxn solvents)
EDDA(10mol%) + nitroethane, r.t.-reflux ->50-60% yield, recrystallized from methanol. low yields makes post reaction crystallization hard and requires either a seed crystal or heavy wall scratching.
methylamine.acetate(10mol%) + nitroethane, 45minutes reflux (heating turned off before any red color is apparent) -> 75-85% yield, recrystallized from methanol.
methylamine.acetate(5-7mol%) + nitroethane, 60minutes reflux (heating turned off before any red color is apparent) -> 75-85% yield, recrystallized from methanol.
Piperonal : (methanol or ipa as rxn solvents)
methylamine.acetate (10mol%) + nitroethane, 45-60minutes reflux -> ~85% yield.
NaOH/HCl 2 step reaction + nitroethane -> ~80% yield.
Slow n-butylamine + nitroethane (as rxn solvent), r.t. for 3 weeks -> ~80-85% yield.

gotta run now, will complete the list another time...

Tsathoggua

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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2011, 11:34:13 AM »
Thanks! just the sort of data I was after.

I am a bit suspicious about rhodium though...not the metal, and not the bee himself, just some of the shite that got put up there.
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Re: Effect on yield in henry condensation of differing amines
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2011, 02:01:37 PM »
yea some stuff is bunk, other is good. non the less, rhodiums is a good archive for lots of stuff. the ethylenediamine bit works as described in rhodium.