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Author Topic: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread  (Read 824 times)

Sedit

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2009, 01:24:44 PM »
I personaly would stick with lead for both the plates unless you have a very compressed form of carbon that won't be prone to decomposing under all the hydrogen bubbles rising off it. I am going to clean up all my MnSO4 and turn it into MAA because I do see a problem with the persulfate cell leaking fluid from one side to the other slowly and fudging up the concentration, With a MAA since its a single cell will not have that problem.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 01:33:25 PM by Sedit »
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Vesp

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2009, 07:01:23 PM »
I think if I have significant erosion on the graphite, I'll use copper. I would be really surprised if the copper eroded in that circumstance.

How is the persulfate leaking over? Is it from the epoxy hole, or is it some how going through the terracotta?

Oh by the way, do you think this Mn persulfate would be good for oxidizing propylene glycol into methylglyoxaland pyruvic acid? - It probably can be, but how would you extract it from the liquid?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 07:14:10 PM by Vesp »
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Vesp

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #82 on: August 20, 2009, 05:25:50 AM »
I've been letting it run for a while now.. basically all day, and over night. The carbon appears to be holding up really well. Lots of persulfate is forming, lots of hydrogen is being produced (ah how enjoyable the sulfuric acid mist from thay is!) and very little if any oxygen is being let off - so I assume it is all going into the persulfate :D

One thing that I just can't seem to understand though is the terracotta cylinder I was going to use absolutely will not allow electricity to flow through it! I changed it out for a small pot without a hole in the bottom, but I am very disappointed that I wasn't able to get all that surface area the longer terracotta cylinder would have given me, since I could submerge the graphite electrode significantly more then my now ~200ml pot vs the 1000ml.

What would cause this cylinder to not allow current to run through it? It even sat in the solution most of the day and overnight and part of this day.. yet nothing.

Another question I have is, does the solubility of manganese sulfate increase with the addition of sulfuric acid?


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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2009, 08:38:48 PM »
Quote
A small copper wire + the large lead sheet is what gave it that pink color. Makes be wonder if using copper with out a partitioned cell would work well, as long as the copper part had a very low surface area and the Pb plate had a large surface area.
It would eventually reach equilibrium where the Mn persulfate was being destroyed at the same rate it was being produced, but if the copper wire had a small area - the equilibrium would probably be very much in favor of having a bunch of Mn persulfate to only a little MnSO4... So consider that for simplicity.
It should be possible in some extent. Reducing the surface of copper wire would increase current density, and there would be less Mn4+ ions that would reach electrode before H+ or H2O would be reduced then. You can btw estimate it, if you have an ampermeter. In the beginning of reaction hydrogen is the only thing that is produced on cathode. After the rate of hydrogen formation would reduce twice compared to the beginning (with the same current value on ampermeter, same temperature of solution), that means the cell works for producing only heat. Estimating hydrogen evaluation is a problem though(visually? ).

Quote
One thing that I just can't seem to understand though is the terracotta cylinder I was going to use absolutely will not allow electricity to flow through it! I changed it out for a small pot without a hole in the bottom
What kind of pot? For plants?  :) Is it the same pot on the previous page's photos? I did not know they can be used as diafragms for electrolysis
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 08:40:28 PM by zz-zhuchila »
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Vesp

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2009, 09:15:42 PM »
I don't know what the cylinder one was for, it didn't have a hole in the bottom and had some flowery decorations on it. I've switched over to a smaller one that was intended for plants, even though it didn't have a hole in it. It seems to be working great, but the H2SO4 solution in it always levels out with the other solution - this has something to do with osmotic pressure and all that jazz, so I'd recommend, though I didn't think of it at the time, making the one of the appropriately hyper or hypotonic, that way I believe it would discourage the ions from crossing.

I'll look more into what you are saying about the current density and all that a bit later. Thanks for the info!

edit: as far as I know, tyvek can also be used for partitioning cells, so you may also be interested in this, though I doubt it would hold up very well in oxidizing solutions.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 09:18:53 PM by Vesp »
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Sedit

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2009, 10:20:46 PM »
The tyvek is what Hinsky used in his pioneering Mn persulfate cell so I'm pretty sure it should hold up well although he has proved that it leaks quite rapidly.

Quote
I did not know they can be used as diafragms for electrolysis
Yes they work quite well. You are suppose to charge the cell for about 6 hours prior to the run by putting MgSO4 as both the cathodlyte and anodlyte. You reverse the current so that a positive charge is inplanted in the cell divider and after you drain the H2SO4 out of your cell and wash it quickly with some cold water. This prevents the ions from going both ways in the cell. There is a text I posted here a while back that explains it better then I could posted under the hydroxylamine ref threed called The Manufacturing of chemicals thru electrolyis.
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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2009, 11:36:57 PM »
Yeah, but that isn't really necessary is it? I just put my pots in, let em sit for a while and then turn on the power supply. Manganese stays out of the pot, current flows and everything works.  ;D
That one cylinder I have just doesn't let water flow through it at all. I ground away a speck after it had sat in water for a day and it was completely dry. :(
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Sedit

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2009, 01:41:07 AM »
Na not really, I stopped doing it but I feel that if someone wanted to do finer work in electro synthesis they should perform it. It is nice thing to do though because it forces the Pot to act as a salt bridge and repel cations from going thru to the other side.
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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2009, 08:47:04 AM »
yeah, I can see how that would be advantageous, but it also seems like it might introduce some compounds that aren't wanted, right?

Sedit, I remember you saying something about how partitioned cells are great because they have the ability to make chlorate, perchlorate, etc. Did I imagine this, or did you? If you do where did you hear about that? I am interested in making my own chlorates, and since I've got all this electrolysis stuff going I figured I should look into that now as well.

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Sedit

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2009, 08:58:30 PM »
No imagination. In the hydroxylamine threed there is the link for the electrolysis book that has some information on it and over at Science madness you can find plenty of information of Chlorate cells and perchlorates ect... You will not get away with Graphite though in the perchlorite cells as its just to powerful.

I think since I will be giving my MnSO4 some down time for cleaning and stuff I will start playing with some salts and see what I come up with. I wish I had some KCl but I don't. Like I said in the other threed it will be nice to have a powerful dry oxidiser to work with. I would think for sure chlorates and perchlorates could oxidise Ethanol.
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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2009, 09:07:12 PM »
How would you oxidize ethanol with a chlorate? That sounds incredibly hard and dangerous to me.
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Sedit

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Re: Vesp's Random Expirement Thread
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2009, 09:15:59 PM »
Methanol reacts with Alkalichlorates to yeild Chlorine dioxide I believe using Methanol as the reducing agent. I would think the product would be formic under these conditions. Its been a while since I looked into it so Ill have to get back to ya.
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