Author Topic: Jon's route  (Read 3445 times)

igotthere

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2012, 05:20:46 PM »
Hi Jon, thx for your advice - I'm so intent on making this work! Life got in the way again this week but I mananged to make my ghetto gasser - just waiting for silicone to go off around all entry/exit ponts of the varoius bits of tubing.

I have questions regarding enriching my IPA:

Roughly how long should it take to gas around 20 grams of methylamine into my IPA?

Once I have my methylamine/IPA can I add my idosafrole straight to the IPA or is it wise to transfer to something that has a lid on so I can shake?
Am also guessing that low IPA temps are only critical when I'm loading the IPA with methylamine and adding the idosafrole, and that after I've added IPA I can stop worrying about keeping it cool?

thx

igt


ImAMANGUYS

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2012, 06:51:14 PM »
my yeilds are so high i just extracted and washed it with water evaped solvent then add equimolar acetic acid and then one volume ethanol and 2-3 volumes of acetone = translucent crystals.

So you're saying you made the MDXX salt with the acetic in ethanol but the salts are only soluble in the acetone?

Can you expand?

I remember reading somewhere where you stated you liked organic salts more and I'm interested in learning more about creating them to try em myself  :P  ;D

pbinteger

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2012, 09:49:41 PM »
Has anyone else experienced the green needles Dr. Methoxy talked about when he tried this route (http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,828.msg14085.html#msg14085)?

When I cool my iodosafrole from this latest finkelstein a crop of green shiny needle crystals fall out -- at RT not all of them are back to oil form again... hmmmmm..

_Pbinteger_


igotthere

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2012, 11:21:11 PM »
ImAMAN, can you expand too?! What do you mean organic salts? Is this different from Hcl salts and, if so, why?

pb, I've never seen this..

jon

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #104 on: December 10, 2012, 12:11:53 AM »
i said the citrates were soluble in acetone i forget how i crystallized those but it was tricky.
i've crashed acetates with acetone before

pbinteger did you heat your solution that could cause the iodosafrole to decompose it does so with ease.

pbinteger

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2012, 07:43:30 PM »
Methylamination success! -- nearly quantitative yields of piss yellow free base.

It was not easy for me. Even though my gas rig had zero leaks -- the rxn did not generate enough pressure to push most of the gas through the system -- it mostly just cleared the o2. So I had to seal up the generator and the trap and use a syringe to pump the gas out of both of those vessels for an hour and pump it out through my gassing line. CH5N gas is very heavy -- it acts like a liquid. You could probably pour lakes of amine gas out of these vessels. Blowing air through the system only seems to bubble through the gas as you would expect. I literally had to suck it out..I would imagine this is a major point of failure for many who attempt this, and jon has not ever talked much about this potential problem.

I've gotten a recommendation on this forum to use a check valve in a line straight from the generator to the rxn vessel hooked up to a gas dispersion tube. I know this would work well... Actually, considering how liquid-heavy this gas is I'm a little baffled as to how Jon generated enough pressure to push most of it through the gallon gatorade bottles. He must have been working on a much larger scale which would generate a lot more gas volume / pressure.

20g batch after extracting -- evaping, and weighing.

how would you guys suggest to do the HCL gassing? I've got the free base in a bit of Toluene now. What would you recommend as the next step? Just go ahead and gas it?

_Pbinteger_
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 07:45:33 PM by pbinteger »

jon

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #106 on: December 10, 2012, 09:31:01 PM »
yeah i never did 20 grams more like 60-100 grams and that was kids play so i had a lot more methylamine.
you can do that gas in toulene it works well.
if you see dirty crystal stop gassing and filter than then continue gassing you get cleaner crystal this way.
make sure it is dry and there is no turbidity in the toulene solution.
or you wind up having to azetrope water off.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 11:15:18 PM by jon »

Electro´S

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2012, 04:33:35 AM »
Yeah! i can´t wait for the number of crystaline grams.  ;D HCl/IPA works well and you can store it.

ImAMANGUYS

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2012, 07:27:08 AM »
Yeah! i can´t wait for the number of crystaline grams.  ;D HCl/IPA works well and you can store it.

So this is titration to crystallization you're suggesting correct?

You add equimolar HCL or other acid to the IPA and evap down until you have a gummy mass which you then swirl around in dry acetone to crash out crystals right?

igotthere

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2012, 08:41:42 PM »
Congratulations pb! Great job. 
I've never had a problem with low or no pressure when trying this - were your gassing vessels particularly large for the amount of gas you were forming? I've always used the ghetto setup ala jons advice from the revisiting halosafroles thread at pn.

So can you talk me through your setup regarding gassing?
Did you have a bowl full of ice with your IPA sitting in it?
Did you gas into that vessel then transfer your methylamine rich IPA into another vessel before adding idosaf?
Was that vessel chilled too?
Did you use a drying tube and, if so, what did you use to dry with?
Did you dry the methylamine/ipa after addition of Methylamine?

Sorry for so many basic questions but I really am quite basic...

igt
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 08:48:04 PM by igotthere »

Electro´S

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2012, 09:06:13 PM »
Yeah! i can´t wait for the number of crystaline grams.  ;D HCl/IPA works well and you can store it.

So this is titration to crystallization you're suggesting correct?

You add equimolar HCL or other acid to the IPA and evap down until you have a gummy mass which you then swirl around in dry acetone to crash out crystals right?

Not, Gassing Dry HCl in cold IPA and them add the IPA/HCl drop by drop to the Free base in the solvent.

pbinteger

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2012, 10:27:58 PM »
My setup was as follows:

All glassware is 24/40 ground glass.
All of my joints were grease sealed, and many of them clamped down.
All of it was made stable using a wall rack, jacks and clamps.
generator was a 1L erlenmeyer with a small stir bar, fitted with a pressure equalized 250mL addition funnel and a still head sitting in a salt / ice bath.
The still head's side neck was fitted with a glass thermometer adapter that had the perfect size tubing, sealed well, running into it. That tubing ran into a side neck of a 3 neck 2L RB boiling flask via a PTFE tubing adapter that screwed down to seal the tubing. The large neck of the boiling flask was fitted with a large rubber stopper with a hole in the center. I made sure that the center tube running out of this 3 neck RB boiling flask went to the bottom and the inflow tubing for this flask was kept high. The 3rd neck was stoppered with a glass stopper and clamped. I used a slightly different sized tubing, that sealed perfectly, to run out of the center rubber stopper in the boiling flask into another thermometer adapter fitted with a long glass tube. This tube was long enough to fully submerge into the IPA / rxn vessel. I stuffed a bit of steel wool into this glass tubing for lack of a gas dispersion fitting. This gas dispersion tube ran down into the center of the rxn vessel which was a 2L 2 neck RB. I also ran a PTFE stop cock adapter out of the other neck of the rxn flask into a 2N HCL bubbler which I rigged up with a filter flask. The vacuum adapter of the filter flask has a tube running up and out into a blower -> carbon filter, and vented out the roof.

I submerged the rxn vessel in a stainless steel bowl containing dry ice and acetone. This bowl was insulated with thick rags and a larger plastic outer bowl.

I did not transfer the IPA once I had gassed and weighed it. I simply added some freshly opened 3A molecular sieves, added a small amount of them, and stirred for a good hour before adding 23g iodosafrole. I left this rxn to run at RT overnight. I noticed a very slight immediate color change but not the kind of drastic one that jon describes so I know I can improve.

When I woke up the color had gone much more to yellow but still had hints of amber / golden. I knew that I had success when I added the first bit of acidic water to the freebase. In previous attempts at this, lots of golden extract material would drop or convert straight down to dark iodosafrole at this point. I saw no unreacted iodosafrole in this work up only lots of HCL going into the acid water.

I did not use a drying tube -- although I debated on using a cold condensor to grab any water vapor. I decided against it because of added dead volume and leak potential. I have attempted this with NaOH drying chambers. Those attempts failed for reasons unrelated. I checked my trap as of last evening and it still has gas in it. I thought about trying to extract more gas from my generator and trap to add to some cold IPA -- see if I could make another small batch..

I spent most of the day recrystallizing and drying a large batch of CH5N in a big 5L rb to prepare for this. I still have a few crops to claim from that I'm sure -- big beautiful flaky crystal formations from slow cooling. My area does still smell heavily of fish.

at the end of a/b extraction after ph'ing the water back up to ~12 slowly a golden / amber oil layer formed on top. I knew it was most of what I put in just from looking at it. I was working this up in a 2L sep funnel, and it was a fairly thick layer in the upper middle. I extracted with toluene, evaporated it, and weighed it.

Going to gas it tonight.

What are the advantages of gassing cold IPA over just straight gassing the Toluene containing freebase?

_Pbinteger_



« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 11:16:42 PM by pbinteger »

jon

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #112 on: December 11, 2012, 11:16:17 PM »
i'm happy to see this finally verified so you know i was not telling fables i no bullshit about quantitative yeilds even the dutch took interest in this but could'nt duplicate it
that makes 2 people i know now that have done this sucessfully the high yeilds(literally 100% in the final step) make it worth the trouble.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 04:11:46 AM by jon »

pbinteger

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2012, 04:32:53 PM »
So -- I just gassed the Tol / freebase for about 15 minutes -- nada!

The Toluene is getting very warm when I gas it

no crystals.

I've attached a pic of my gassing rig for HCL The freebase toluene is sitting in the jar. The pic was right before I started gassing.

Should the freebase / toluene be in ice for this ?





« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 04:35:12 PM by pbinteger »

ImAMANGUYS

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #114 on: December 12, 2012, 04:46:24 PM »
Beautiful contraption you got there  ;)  ;D

But, the freebase in toluene looks a bit dark...  :-X

When i had my freebase in solvent it still looked pissy yellow like jon has stated before... The color may be distorted by my monitor or your camera but it's just an observation.

Did you check for leaks?

pbinteger

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #115 on: December 12, 2012, 05:05:16 PM »
HAHAHA!

I walked away for a minute and BOOM

a big ole crop of crystals!

YES!!!

ImAMANGUYS

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #116 on: December 12, 2012, 05:16:42 PM »
HAHAHA!

I walked away for a minute and BOOM

a big ole crop of crystals!

YES!!!

PICS PICS!  ;D  ;)

Congrats man :P

Did you use hydrochloric and sulfuric acid for the gas generation?

igotthere

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #117 on: December 12, 2012, 05:29:06 PM »
Fantastic well done Pb!! you must be very pleased!! have you tried any yet?! 100mg would be just right!!

I just gassed my IPA. to say it went badly would be an understatement..

First issue was the saturated Nacl - its so cold where I am that it started to freeze in my emema bottle! jon says to chill so I stuck in the freezer for a while to chill, but clearly it was close to freezing when i took it out.
Then I had a massive suck back, then my reaction vessel toppled over... aaarrgghhhh!!!
I was unsure if I had contaminated the contents of the suck back trap so I had to assume I had.
I dumped what was in the suck back and carried on. I weighed my ipa/vessel and it was lighter than when I started so I'm not holding out much hope for yields...
I'm really pissed off.
I'm really not a chemist..

Anyway I shall carry on. The suck back occured right at the end so maybe the IPA is still methylamine rich and I'll get something.

Once again congrats Pb

igt



igotthere

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #118 on: December 12, 2012, 05:32:24 PM »
could anyone suggest a way to use spices method of getting to the hcl rather than gassing? I've used that method before when I've al/hg'd with good success rates, but am unsure as to how I would proceed

igt

ImAMANGUYS

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Re: Jon's route
« Reply #119 on: December 12, 2012, 05:36:07 PM »
First issue was the saturated Nacl - its so cold where I am that it started to freeze in my emema bottle! jon says to chill so I stuck in the freezer for a while to chill, but clearly it was close to freezing when i took it out.

You do mean NaOH right?

You drip a saturated solution of Lye onto the Methylamine Salt to produce methylamine gas...

I was unsure if I had contaminated the contents of the suck back trap so I had to assume I had.

What would have contaminated your "suckback liquid"? Why wouldn't you just add it back to your reaction vessel?

I'm really pissed off.
I'm really not a chemist..

Anyway I shall carry on. The suck back occured right at the end so maybe the IPA is still methylamine rich and I'll get something.

Goodluck friend. At least you didn't waste your IodoSaf ;)