Author Topic: How to end the war on drugs?  (Read 512 times)

Vesp

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2010, 04:03:51 AM »
I think that in order to win the war on drugs we've almost got to use something similiar to the saul alkinsky tactics. He was a community organizer, and his ways are very often used by politicians to this day, at least in the US. He dedicated his book to satan.

The rules go basically like this:

Quote
Rule 1: Power is not only what you have, but what an opponent thinks you have. If your
organization is small, hide your numbers in the dark and raise a din that will make everyone
think you have many more people than you do.

Rule 2: Never go outside the experience of your people.
The result is confusion, fear, and retreat.

Rule 3: Whenever possible, go outside the experience of an opponent. Here you want to cause
confusion, fear, and retreat.

Rule 4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules. “You can kill them with this, for they
can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it
infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.
Rule 6: A good tactic is one your people enjoy. “If your people aren’t having a ball doing it,
there is something very wrong with the tactic.”

Rule 7: A tactic that drags on for too long becomes a drag. Commitment may become ritualistic
as people turn to other issues.
Rule 8: Keep the pressure on. Use different tactics and actions and use all events of the period
for your purpose. “The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will
maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this that will cause the opposition to
react to your advantage.”

Rule 9: The threat is more terrifying than the thing itself. When Alinsky leaked word that large
numbers of poor people were going to tie up the washrooms of O’Hare Airport, Chicago city
authorities quickly agreed to act on a longstanding commitment to a ghetto organization. They
imagined the mayhem as thousands of passengers poured off airplanes to discover every
washroom occupied. Then they imagined the international embarrassment and the damage to
the city’s reputation.

Rule 10: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. Avoid being trapped by
an opponent or an interviewer who says, “Okay, what would you do?”
Rule 11: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Don’t try to attack abstract
corporations or bureaucracies. Identify a responsible individual. Ignore attempts to shift or
spread the blame.
According to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer is to bait an opponent into reacting. “The
enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.”


 if anyone of you have the ability to get me some of his books in pdf or other format, I'd love to seem them...

His most famous is Rules for Radicals, and he has a few more such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky#Published_works

here are some of the files I have found on it, but they are small. Sad

I don't know how this would be implemented exactly into fighting the war on drugs, but I think this is how it would have to be done. It cannot be an online only sort of thing though, I think rallies and protests are very important -- in order to get anything done we need to make a hell of a lot of noise, etc...

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Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2010, 04:24:04 AM »
I agree with Sedit,
The war on drugs is just yet another piss take by the government, like the war on terror ect. It is a manipulation of words and the truth to accomplish their goals whatever they are? Its been said a million times you cant have a war on an inanimate object (its ridiculous) like a war on chairs or rocks. It is a war on drug users, and a war on privacy and people sitting on large amounts of oil. Both of which bring in billions of dollars into the hands of politicians, illegal drugs make lots of money for the government. I was watching a shitty Ross Kemp on Gangs episode when a guy said something that stuck a note with me, he was a smart guy. And when Ross Kemp was asking why these nasty greedy drug dealers where doing this they guy answered "There is xxx billion dollars worth of drugs transported through rio de janero every year, those street dealers who are the "evil" ones move ALL of it to survive and feed their families they are literally starving in the streets. If they were the evil ones doing this, wheres their money? Why would they not buy their family some food? out of the xxx billion dollars made by passing drugs through here, where is it?"

One thing is for certain it was not in the slums! With the people that were being demonized, and used an excuse to get rid of drugs!

And that sums it up! Follow a dollar,(following a single dollar is hard, but following millions or billions is much easier!) and you find the people really profiting from this are not who you think!! The fact that certain people are put into certain situations where they have no choice, no money cant get a job because of being a certain race ect. This will not change until the whole system changes (or breaks) as we live in time where if your business is big enough and you have enough $$$ you can dictate the rules to the rest. You can make millions every year(more than you would ever need in one year), while others starve in the cold. And not care, look kids if you do bad in school you will end up like that guy in the gutter, ha ha ha ha (the family laughs together from their warm Bentley).

"The Coca-Cola formula is The Coca-Cola Company's secret recipe for Coca-Cola. As a publicity, marketing strategy and intellectual property protection strategy started by Robert W. Woodruff, the company presents the formula as a closely held trade secret known only to a few employees, mostly executives."
from wiki

It is a trade secret because they can keep it secret and still protect it!

"A company can protect its confidential information through non-compete and non-disclosure contracts with its employees (within the constraints of employment law, including only restraint that is reasonable in geographic and time scope). The law of protection of confidential information effectively allows a perpetual monopoly in secret information - it does not expire as would a patent. The lack of formal protection, however, means that a third party is not prevented from independently duplicating and using the secret information once it is discovered."
from wiki (Trade secrets)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 04:26:35 AM by Naf1 »

hypnos

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2010, 04:56:08 AM »
85% of failures are system failures, 15% are caused by people--

"i often wonder if "governments" are so fuckt,, coz they only have a few years to implement changes and correct others,,due to lack of time" After all,,"drugs" particularly my favorites,,rank waaaaaaay down "the list" of things "we the people" want them(the govt) to change.... ???

its 'obvious' that the changes in marijuana laws worldwide have been as a direct result of "enough people voicing their POSITIVE opinions" about marijuana,,and the results 'speak for themselves".....NOTHING has ever got WORSE via the "decriminalisation of cannabis"

  Lets start MAKING "the facts" rather than "facing them"..........."if nothing changes,,nothing changes"
"the two things you can give away and never lose, are what you know, and how you feel...."

Vesp

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2010, 05:05:26 AM »
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

The governments screw everything up because two trains of thought exist. There is a battle going on - This is The Individual vs The Collective.

This is one of the videos that has really helped me understand a lot of things about Individualism vs collectivism. I think it is pretty intense - not the best made, but the ideas behind it I think are great. Though... it has nothing to do with drugs.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0o2GCT0z4Q&NR=1

if you watch it, let me know what you think of it.. there are five parts, it is rather long.. :/
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 05:07:24 AM by Vesp »
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hypnos

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2010, 01:47:27 AM »
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

nice quote- i agree-whose is it?

 has anyone read "brave new world" by aldous huxley?---y'know,,soma and "a gram is better than a damn" once again,,i concur!!!
"the two things you can give away and never lose, are what you know, and how you feel...."

Vesp

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2010, 02:04:03 AM »
Margret Mead IIRC

I long time ago did I read a brave new world. I remember very little of it, and thus I am not sure about what it is you are referencing.
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embezzler

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2010, 02:34:41 PM »
You are free to take all the legally prescribed "soma" you want. In fact it is encouraged.

(Vesp soma was a drug used recreationally and socially to make everyone accept and enjoy the world as it is)

It will take more than a small group of individuals to change the world now. The collective has too much influence over the individual.

Even a lot of drug users couldn't care less whether or not they are legal once they can avoid being arrested (or if the charges are slight) and some even enjoy the counter culture. I cant see how you can motivate the average person to give a shit about the war on drugs since the war doesn't affect them and where it does (crime + tax etc.) they are so used to it they will not see a need to change.

Patent issues could easily be avoided with licensed sales where the companies would have to bid on the rights to sell a compound. Everyone wins. Especially big pharma which may smooth things along with the government.


All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream...

Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2010, 11:43:29 AM »
"It will take more than a small group of individuals to change the world now."

See, this is what I am saying. I said "And that sums it up! Follow a dollar,(following a single dollar is hard, but following millions or billions is much easier!) and you find the people really profiting from this are not who you think!" And people start thinking ohh here we go again not another conspiracy theory. But I am talking about history and what goes on to this day in many different ways, and I assume people know what I am talking about. Today its still cocaine from the same old places using the same old routes and now herion from afghanistan ect......

1980's; Iran Contra Affair. (the CIA on reagans command introduced crack cocaine into black(it can be argued if the black part was planned but cant be argued that is where it ended up) communities, and initially used the money to fund the Contras but probably soon after realised the potential).

Whoever in the CIA or government planned out how to monopolize that market was a genius and they set a standard! They got poor people who had not really much to lose to do all the legwork, so are not actually doing it themselves more from a far. By allowing it to happen (secretly) and applying a lot of pressure to certain routes of money laundering and leaving others seemingly open, they literally dictate how the drug money is laundered (spent). By helping certain people monopolize the drug market and weeding out the small dealers by death, arresting ect, they can watch where the money goes much easier. In the article linked, the bank had to pay 160 million when getting caught laundering 110 million and had to promise it wont happen again (wrap on the knuckles but they will not do it again! most important part was publicly naming them and the government got its 110 million back plus 50 million so no charges pressed for smuggling 110million!). The mayor of Miami openly states to this day "This city was built with drug money", a city bringing in billions of dollars of revenue and taxes each year was built with drug money, who profits from billions of dollars of legitimate extra revenue and taxes? The dealers from those days are now dead or in prison, or on the run or the one in million that got away. Funny as at the time Miami was being built with drug money so was Panama. So the drug dealers that are in jail or dead dont have the money anymore? A quote from a story about how panama was built on drug money, but relating to their current 2007 boom (where the "same shit different day" aka "same shit different smell" defense could be used). And the writer probably did not want to say something he might regret.

"Not A New Phenomenon: Remember that Panamanian dictator Manuel Antonio Noriega was arrested and jailed for drug trafficking. And, he will now be going to spend more time in a French prison on charges that he used laundered drug money to purchase real estate in France. In Panama the cocaine flows North, and the money flows back South. We're talking like 40 years or more of history here. Just take a wander through the halls of the La Joya prison and talk to the inmates. Many of those guys who are now in prison purchased apartments or other property with drug money. When they are busted its taken away from them. Does anyone think drug money being laundered in the Panamanian real estate market is new? Of course not. Is drug money funding the majority of the current construction boom? Of course not. Are some of those apartments being bought with laundered drug money - of course they are. After all, this is still Panama."
http://www.panama-guide.com/article.php/20071230205729628

By policing certain types of money laundering extra hard and not really at all with others(like property investment), they force the unwitting dealer into spending his money where they want it(generally construction). Rather than risk loading up a suitcase with as much money as he can (not much) and trying his luck smuggling it to a place where he has more opportunity than local property investment and luxury items like cars.



When a bigtime drug dealers house, two lamborghinis, jet skies ect ect is siezed in raids then sold in police auctions (who gets the money?). Thats right! It is beneficial for them to pick a smart guy and give him the green light to let him deal and let them get filthy rich (and watch where every cent goes! keep your eyes on the prize), then when times up collect their chips. The perfect example here is Freeway Ricky Ross as he actually met with the leader of the Contras several times when he was a kingpin in the 80's! (he is now in prison with his fortune gone, the physical stuff sold at police auctions the money seized from bank accounts). Imagine if he said in an interview to someone he has squirreled 10 million away in a foreign account or hid it somewhere (the sharks would come out quickly!) Special agents asking "Where did you hide the money Ricky!", they have setup special units dedicated to recovering proceeds of crime. Which can freeze foreign bank accounts and have other hardcore powers like that (called, asset recovery) the name says it all they are just recovering their assets.

Freeway Ricky Ross claims to have made "2-3 million dollars a week", and was in business for years. But now does not have a cent! The government has it all! You tell me if it is worth their while finding someone smart who will not blow their money rather invest it and save it in an account ect, then letting him do it for a while, then raiding and collecting his millions? To spend how they want (probably not on construction as they already have that covered ;D )

I could go on for a long time about other ways this is done, I also dont think this applies globally like every politician in the world is in on this. But there is too much money in it for people very high up to say no too, enough money to build a city! I think that is a golden example of how much money is actually in drugs that are illegal! If coke was legal how much would a gram cost to buy?

Answer= About 100 times less than what you pay now!

And if you think oh the government would not do this to us, just think about the favors it does for big pharma. Most of those favors where not done in the interest of the general publics interest and good health, but moreso for very healthy $$$ donations regardless of the outcome.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 12:06:38 PM by Naf1 »

Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2010, 11:08:53 PM »
I cant help myself, everyone knows that the war in Iraq is about oil right. But was also dubya settling old scores with Saddam, but there presence to this day and the actual taking of Iraq by the military was oil related. As those people over there are sitting on a big puddle of oil, when Americas and Saudi oil runs dry in the near future they will still have plenty. And everyone thinks they will sell it to China and Korea ect, when times are tough, effectively leaving the US in the shit. So they are over there protecting their future, and will not leave till they are sure a government has been setup with leaders that have their best interests at heart (no weapons of mass destruction!lol just liquids of mass enviromental destruction).

Which brings us to Afghanistan, the Taliban took over Afghanstan in 1996. But it did not start there, these people came from the war with the Soviet Union and were mostly Mujahadeen. They witnessed how shady the CIA is first hand, the stuff we know about Charlie Wilsons War was portrayed as a congressman defeating the Soviets pretty much single handed. But is not the truth they smuggled many large warehouses full of weapons to the Mujahadeen but the actual amount is not stated, anyway the CIA ended up leaving the Mujahadeen for dead once there goal had been met. They did not really want the Mujahadeen to win the war as they did not really want them in power, they just wanted the Soviets to suffer as much as possible, so were using tactics to bleed them, and pulled out and stopped support well before the actual war was over to make sure the Mujahadeen were not too strong also. Do I have to mention by the time the Mujahadeen got home from that war, they were very pissed with the CIA who purposely left them for dead! A young Osama Bin Laden being one of the Mujahadeen the CIA personally trained, and gave and weapons and support to.

1996 after the above the mujahadeen came out better than expected and were still quite a strong force, the Taliban formed and took over Afghanistan, and they were brutal bastards. But the whole point of this story is Afghanistan is situated in the 'Golden Cresent' which is the opium producing region in the middle east; India, Pakistan, Turkey, Afghanistan, Iran ect make up the golden cresent

The golden cresent, and golden triangle being the two principal opium producing regions on the globe.

Now we can add Tasmania, the 'Golden Vagina'
[note]Australian Colloquialism for a woman's pubic hair. Originated from the similarity in shape of a woman's public hair to the shape of Australian Island State of Tasmania.[/note]


  • When the Taliban took control in 1996 it took them 4 years to ban the production of opium by their people!! And I can promise you folks these guys were producing 75% of the worlds opium just before it was banned, thats massive massive bucks someone was about to miss out on! Someone is going to hurt big when you do shit like that, and it was as if they knew who it would hurt so were very happy to settle old scores! And if you look at the history who does it seem was the most pissed at the Taliban at that time? Enough to raid their country not long after doing that? Indeed it is a war on drugs (but not how you ever imagined it)


from wiki;
"But in 2000 the Taliban banned opium production, a first in Afghan history. In 2000, Afghanistan's opium production still accounted for 75% of the world's supply. On 27 July 2000, the Taliban again issued a decree banning opium poppy cultivation. According to opioids.com, by February 2001, production had been reduced from 12,600 acres (51 km2) to only 17 acres (7 ha).[75] When the Taliban entered north Waziristan in 2003 they immediately banned poppy cultivation and punished those who sold it.

Another source claims opium production was cut back by the Taliban not to prevent its use but to shore up its price, and thus increase the income of poppy farmers and revenue of Afghan tax collectors.[76]

The official verdict of the Taliban however was otherwise. Mullah Amir Mohammed Haqqani, the Taliban's top drug official in Nangarhar, said the ban would remain regardless of whether the Taliban received aid or international recognition. "It is our decree that there will be no poppy cultivation. It is banned forever in this country," he said. "Whether we get assistance or not, poppy growing will never be allowed again in our country."[75]

However, with the 2001 US/Northern Alliance expulsion of the Taliban, opium cultivation has increased in the southern provinces liberated from the Taliban control,[77] and by 2005 production was 87% of the world's opium supply,[78] rising to 90% in 2006.[79]

Hashemi also detailed this in his March 2001 lecture in California.[80]

In October 2009 an uncredited report, citing only 'American and Afghan officials', appeared in the New York Times asserting that the Taliban are now supporting the opium trade and deriving funding from it,[81] seemingly counter to their documented prior banning and elimination of the drug trade in Afghanistan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Opium

Like the oil in Iraq, they really cant leave until they are sure their assets can be safe. And that will not happen until a us friendly government is in place, look at the facts there was no herion coming from afghanistan when the taliban was in control. As soon as they were overthrown the supply started again now they supply 90% of the herion. Thereby making much $$$$ for some, again. An english program called Commando http://sharetv.org/shows/commando_on_the_front_line_uk is a documatary/series about soldiers in Afghanistan nowadays. The last episode they had to confiscate a large opium haul they found on a farm, all the villagers were protesting and a meeting was set in their town hall with the military that took the opium. They met at a town hall and explained (and showed it on the tv) to these angry farmers that this guy had too much, you are allowed a little to medium amount but this guy had too much! He gave them a number for a drug liason officer, to which the whole room of farmers anxiously got the number and stormed out. As you can see its a joke the fact the American army is in there town means the only way to survive is to grow opium no one wants to go to that village with the soldiers, taliban would think you are talking to them ect. And appears as if they are actually wanting them to grow it (they tolerate it, and do not cut down plants they see ect?), and over 90% of the worlds illegal herion is currently coming from there and they are saying look you can still grow small amounts, but make sure you dont get greedy and produce large amounts as this will drive down the prices and we will suffer. With so much coming from there would they not be trying to stop it and pull out any they see, spray them ect, not hold meetings discussing how much they can all grow without pushing prices down to far!

Its a dirty business!

no1uno

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2010, 11:54:52 PM »
The only feasible route is via the full decriminalization of drugs (same as has been done in Portugal, more on that is here), this removes the criminal problem (reduces the incredible amounts of public money paid to enforce criminal laws to virtually nothing), and will have the added benefit of bankrupting the Taliban.

In terms of what the coalition of the willing (or COW) should be doing in Afghanistan, they should stop dealing with corrupt warlords, period. They should pay the farmers/villagers an agreed price per acre of poppies, then destroy them in situ prior to them becoming harvestable (collect them and corruption being what it is, the bulk of them will magically disappear, or be 'ambushed' en-route to the destruction point).

The current government has less credibility than the one the US tried to prop up in Vietnam in the 60's, it's only supporters really boil down to the drug-producing warlords, who prefer it to the Taliban. This is not a national problem, or more properly, a problem that can be addressed on a national level. What needs to happen is that the coalition forces incubate and nurture locals who wish to govern themselves, without the corruption endemic to the central government. Once they have experience with local/regional politics being above board, then and only then, will the people themselves be ready (and equipped), to trust a democratically elected central government. It is already happening in at least one province (in the Australian & Dutch Area of Operations) where the locals have, of their own volition, rebelled against the Taliban and their supporters (who live in their own community).

Democracy cannot be imposed at gunpoint and expected to take, yes, it requires force equal to the task of resisting those who wish to keep the status quo (or lawless state) going, but it will take a LOT of time and effort to get the people to trust their own tribal leaders (and that is what will have to be the initial approach) again, supporting them, when they have popular support, will endear the coalition forces to the local population(s), where that is possible (accept it will not always be possible, Helmand Province stands out). Self-Governing and/or autonomous regions are the next step, let the local tribal leaders get back to solving their differences through council (which they always did do historically) and govern their own region.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 12:07:52 AM by no1uno »
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Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2010, 12:26:40 AM »
Wow I was completely unaware that there places actually taking steps forward! Mind you I dont think the Portuguese government ever saw the $$$ from public money stated above for war on drugs, and also would not profit from drug dealing like some other governments. It is openly admitted that Miami was built with drug money, making dealers hide their money in construction then locking them up and taking it. They have round ups in America and law enforcement push criminal activity into certain designated areas by putting pressure on certain places you make a path of least resistance, crime takes over (which they make money from, fighting and running). The property prices go down and the investment side of the scheme kicks in, getting dealers and investors on their side to buy up the property dirt cheap and not prosecuting them for laundering that way, the poor cant compete with the prices and have to move on to the next place. All the while keeping the rich suburbs and people safe and shielded from whats going on in those places. Police pressure is applied and criminals are prosecuted or leave in time and real estate prices go back up (historically much more than before). The dealers are busted in a series of raids (they will bust a syndicate of drug dealers), and recover their assets. It works well why change something that makes up such a large chunk of the economy?

And regarding the Taliban, they were the ones that banned opium in Afghanistan. Granted they are a class A bunch of assholes, but where doing the right thing regarding opium. The world was not stoned on Afghani herion when they were in power! And thats the point, now 90% of the worlds illicit herion comes from Afghaninstan now the Taliban have been removed. It could be argued thats why they were removed! So the river could run again, and $$$ made!

edit;
"In terms of what the coalition of the willing (or COW) should be doing in Afghanistan, they should stop dealing with corrupt warlords, period. They should pay the farmers/villagers an agreed price per acre of poppies, then destroy them in situ prior to them becoming harvestable (collect them and corruption being what it is, the bulk of them will magically disappear, or be 'ambushed' en-route to the destruction point)."

Agreed, and profits from drug dealing should be transparently dealt with. In a separate account designed to give back to the poeple that were affected by the crime. Not straight into the coffers of whoever is in power!

You made some other good points, but posted it while I was typing. I will get back on that!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 12:29:24 AM by Naf1 »

Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2010, 12:54:24 AM »
"The current government has less credibility than the one the US tried to prop up in Vietnam in the 60's,"

LOL, you bring up a great point as it can be argued thats where most of this business began. Whilst in the golden triangle, using mafia and black (Frank Lucas type) gangsters brought back herion, to markets already set up by the Mafia. It could be argued that a cheek turned by the army who on orders from above quietly let it happen(but like the gov still ensuring plausible deniability) , as there are so many other documented cases of in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lucas_(drug_lord)

"This huge profit margin allowed him to buy property all over the country, including office buildings in Detroit, and apartments in Los Angeles and Miami. He also bought a several-thousand-acre ranch in North Carolina on which he ranged 300 head of Black Angus cows, including a breeding bull worth $125,000.[6]
Lucas rubbed shoulders with the elite in entertainment, politics, and crime, stating later that he had met Howard Hughes at one of Harlem's best clubs in his day.[6] Though he owned several mink and chinchilla coats and other accessories, Lucas much preferred to dress very casually and corporately so as not to attract attention to himself.[12] He fathered seven children, including a daughter, Francine Lucas-Sinclair, and a son, Frank Lucas, Jr.[13] When he was arrested in the mid-1970s, all of Lucas' assets were seized.[12]"

To me, "300 head of Black Angus cows, including a breeding bull worth $125,000." sounds like some old white guy that wears a cowboy hat would dream of! But you never know?

A quote from Frank Lucas himself!

"The properties in Chicago, Detroit, Miami, North Carolina, Puerto Rico — they took everything. My lawyer told me they couldn't take the money in the offshore accounts, and I had all my money stored in the Cayman Islands. But that's BS; they can take it. Take my word for it. If you got something, hide it, 'cause they can go to any bank and take it.   ”
    
— Frank Lucas

All that glitters is not gold! Even gold itself if it is just temporary! The person that got the gold in the end and held onto it would be the winner in my book! Old Uncle Sam. To be clear not americans! but the government to build weapons and do other shady shit. Not even a tax break, you still had to pay in full! The whole point of this is getting you to pay! taxes, war on drugs, terror, actual wars. Your food is controlled so have to buy it, with the left over money, To escape you buy an eight ball of coke, and some beer and are bone ass broke after slogging your ass off all week somewhere you dont want to be! Damn nearly slavery and you dont even see it!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 01:29:34 AM by Naf1 »

no1uno

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2010, 02:21:23 PM »
The Taliban did NOT prevent, preclude or prosecute the production of heroin on a grand scale, in fact, they amongst the other members of the anti-Russian forces, used it as a weapon against the low-morale, predominantly conscripted "Russian" (although most were anything but ethnic "Russians") Army, exactly the same way the Chechnyan's are now (and precisely as the CIA etc. suggested they should do against the big, bad Russians). The Taliban prevented rival warlords from growing/selling opium, they did not stop the trade per se, all they did was impose a monopoly, thereby controlling the trade and starving their competitors of $$$$. The rival warlords are the scum who are now our "allies" and their price, being allowed to distribute heroin.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Afghanistan is the tar-baby that sucked in and destroyed the USSR, they imposed a seriously corrupt government as well, then had to try and prop it up, over the wishes of the local leaders/warlords. It's funny in a way, people continue to try and change the essential nature of things... If I plant a cactus in the rainforest, it will die, the same as if I planted a water loving tropical plant in a sub-tropical desert, why? Neither is capable of changing rapidly enough, thus they are doomed from the outset.

As to our drug-war, I am on record for saying that the ONLY real option is the complete decriminalization of the full spectrum of recreational drugs (ala Portugal), then licensing the sale of them through licensed retailers (same as Alcohol, only to those >18 and carrying an obligation not to sell to people who cannot handle it).  That will remove billions from the budget (reducing the size of police services = VERY UNPOPULAR), while putting additional billions into the coffers of the Government via taxation and sales revenue. The outcomes apart from that, will be the same as in Portugal, a massive reduction in HIV/AIDS transmission, dramatically less spending on emergency medicine (ie. less OD's) and a massive reduction in the drug-related crime that goes with the high prices charged under prohibition.

Why is this not in place already? Simple, too many vested interests need the war to continue indefinitely...

How to change it, get a couple of Senators into Gov't on a anti-drug war ticket, minority senators run this (and many countries), we are going through a massive baby-boom at present, so when they hit 18, they'll outnumber everyone else, get even a quarter of them to vote for the senators and BOOM.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 02:34:23 PM by no1uno »
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Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2010, 11:36:37 PM »
I was happy to see your name in the last person posting on this thread! Have you been in the army (sounds like it!), a great person to be having this conversation with!!!!

Just quickly (I will post relevant links for my comments!),

"The Taliban did NOT prevent, preclude or prosecute the production of heroin on a grand scale, in fact, they amongst the other members of the anti-Russian forces, used it as a weapon against the low-morale, predominantly conscripted "Russian" (although most were anything but ethnic "Russians") Army, exactly the same way the Chechnyan's are now (and precisely as the CIA etc. suggested they should do against the big, bad Russians). The Taliban prevented rival warlords from growing/selling opium, they did not stop the trade per se, all they did was impose a monopoly, thereby controlling the trade and starving their competitors of $$$$. The rival warlords are the scum who are now our "allies" and their price, being allowed to distribute heroin."

ALL that was true, the Taliban took actual control in 1996 after the war with the Soviets ended'

"The initial Soviet deployment of the 40th Army in Afghanistan began on December 24, 1979 under Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev.[3] The final troop withdrawal started on May 15, 1988, and ended on February 15, 1989 under the last Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. Due to the interminable nature of the war, the conflict in Afghanistan has often been referred to as the Soviets' Vietnam;[4] the analogy compares the conflict to America's role in the Vietnam War."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

Anyway, the Taliban took control as stated in 1996 and banned opium in 2000. So it is agreed that up until that point in 2000 everything you said was correct, and the Taliban were actually quoted syaing things like;

"Abdul Rashid, the head of the Taliban's anti-drugs control force in Kandahar, spelled out the nature of his unique job. He is authorized to impose a strict ban on the growing of hashish, "because it is consumed by Afghans and Muslims." But, Rashid told me without a hint of sarcasm, "Opium is permissible because it is consumed by kafirs in the West and not by Muslims or Afghans.""

"But in 2000 the Taliban banned opium production, a first  in Afghan history. In 2000, Afghanistan's opium production still accounted for 75% of the world's supply. On 27 July 2000, the Taliban again issued a decree banning opium poppy cultivation. According to opioids.com, by February 2001, production had been reduced from 12,600 acres (51 km2) to only 17 acres (7 ha).[75] When the Taliban entered north Waziristan in 2003 they immediately banned poppy cultivation and punished those who sold it."

"Mullah Amir Mohammed Haqqani, the Taliban's top drug official in Nangarhar, said the ban would remain regardless of whether the Taliban received aid or international recognition. "It is our decree that there will be no poppy cultivation. It is banned forever in this country," he said. "Whether we get assistance or not, poppy growing will never be allowed again in our country."[75]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Opium

The Lies About Taliban Heroin
Russia and Oil the Real Objectives With Heroin As A Weapon of War
A Replay of CIA's Vietnam-era Drug Dealing
FTW Revises Its Map On Economic Impacts

by Michael C. Ruppert
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_10_01_heroin.html

"U.N. drug control officers said the Taliban religious militia has virtually wiped out opium production in Afghanistan - once the world's largest producer - since banning poppy cultivation in July.

"A 12-member team from the U.N. Drug Control Program spent two weeks searching most of the nation's largest opium-producing areas and found so few poppies that they do not expect any opium to come out of Afghanistan this year.

"'We are not just guessing. We have seen the proof in the fields,' said Bernard Frahi, regional director for the U.N. program in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He laid out photographs of vast tracts of land cultivated with wheat alongside pictures of the same fields taken a year earlier - a sea of blood red poppies."

Saying stuff like ;
"Whether we get assistance or not, poppy growing will never be allowed again in our country"

Is not going to go down well! And history shows it was invaded soon after (in time for next years crop),

"Only belatedly have major outlets like the Wall Street Journal (Oct. 2), The Associated Press (Oct. 5), and the Washington Post (Oct. 5) begun to acknowledge, in stories placed well back in the paper, and with much less emphasis, that the Northern Alliance - our allies against the Taliban - are now in real control of the heroin trade. Smuggling routes have shifted from south through Pakistan northward through Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan. They acknowledge the obvious - that the Taliban is no longer the primary supplier of heroin. How could they be?"

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_10_01_heroin.html

In fact the Northern Alliance was still producing Opium when the Taliban banned it, so you can see why that ally was picked! They have the same interests!

"Why is this not in place already? Simple, too many vested interests need the war to continue indefinitely..."

See! When it comes down to a rational answer, there is only one! "too many vested interests" and there is no personal love lost between them, those vested interests are purely $$$$$ related. Now with no oil, but lots of sand and the capacity to produce upwards of 90% of the worlds illicit herion, ask yourself where the dollars are to be had in Afghanistan where are there interests? And ask yourself if on that crazy chance the government does has a vested interest in the illicit proiduction of herion in Afghanistan, enough to go to war over (what the fuck type of world do we live in?). It would mean the war on drugs is just to produce extra revenue and a keeping up appearances campaign. Because if thats true the guy on the street corner (although in possession) did not supply your kids with herion it was good ole Unc Sam.


The shady part also nowadays, its been going on for years is, how they send in CIA proprietary or contract operations subcontrators (read; Blackwater, Southern Air, Evergreen), to fight dirty fights that the actual army is not allowed to fight. As it would be illegal and they could be held accountable, so they employ ex-special forces soldiers to come in and do what they are not allowed to (whether under UN or US laws they would be breaking otherwise). They sent those to Afghanistan early days, but that is a whole! other story!!!!

Would it be a good time to bring up Marijuana? Since the internet, it has become an internet weed! Meaning marijuana in the past had been cultivated in specific regions, Thailand and that region of Asia example=Thai weed, Mexico example=Acapulco gold,Hawaii example=Maui Wowie, Columbia example=Columbian Gold, Afghanistan example=Mazar-i-Sheriff Hash and a few others not mentioned (like the Kush mountains, Nepal, morrocco, lebanon, but all those ones middle eastern). So was like cocaine or opium it was only available in certain remote places, it needed to be organized, imported and sold, i.e; A market which they could totally monopolize, like opium, cocaine ect. So like they always did they used people usually someone from a minority or a gang member or decent criminal past (so is very easy to convict them after it is said and done, also if anything goes wrong they are the scape goat) you see it all the time a shady criminal drug dealer versus a respectable officer (to the jury the officer has already won!). So they used people like Howard Marks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Marks (one of the biggest of his time, do I have to mention he was caught and everything he ever made taken by the government leaving him with nothing?) Like Pablo Escobar, Boston George and ALL the rest!

So thats why it was illegal, unlike alcohol (which they learned prior, that people will just make their own and cut the government out thats why they say prohibition does not work! because theydont get paid) and tobacco which where easy to come by marijuana was able to be used like other cash crops like opium and cocaine and lots of money made from it.

Now with the advent of the internet, everybody can not only get seeds, but growing instructions and feel safe by talking to the millions of others online doing it. And inspire each other and now days the best marijuana is grown by the discerning connoisseur in his setup specially made, and grown with love (cant be beat on a mass scale). So the fact that every man and his dog has weed or someone they know growing it, the above tactics are useless. And they had to move on it, and weed is nearly available all over US now in legal dispensaries if they did not do it they would have been still left out of the loop. So now add their taxes ect, and you can have it if you pay them for it.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 12:14:11 AM by Naf1 »

hypnos

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2010, 02:30:20 AM »
I read a fascinating article the other day about the "history of the legalities of certain drugs"--- which i will try to give a brief summary of---it made a lot of sense to me.......
  (damn those vested interests... >:()

In the first part of the 19th century,opiates,tobacco and alcohol, were more or less 'accepted' by society---but now in the 21st century its very different.....why?
  Economics and changes in technology can serve to 'amplify, or restrict' markets--for alcohol and tobacco in the 19th century,they did the latter; the Bosnack machine,which turned out mass-produced cigarettes,helped underpin the rise of a mass smoking market.....

 The hypodermic syringe,and the discovery of the opiate alkaloids,on the other hand,brought previously 'openly available' opiates under more restrictive medical control.this became a professional activity ONLY doctors could do.

 Industrial interests at the time had different approaches to the sales and marketing of their products--
  The alcohol industry wanted wider availability of their products,,whereas the pharmaceutical industry in the UK and Germany argued for restriction of trade in opiates ans cocaine prior to WW1 as a means of 'maintaining' the market

 CULTURAL factors/public attitudes also played a significant part--this is where "Fear" comes into play---If substances are connected with feared or despised minorities,or embody some threat; then regulation and cultural change are not far behind---in the 19th century it was the Chinese and their opium was often seen as PREFERABLE  to beer drinking because it made the consumer placid  8) smoking,which embodied a threat with both racial and sexual overtones.Alcohol was seen as threatening------in 19th century Britain,opium
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geezmeister

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2010, 09:24:13 PM »
The way to put an end to the war on drugs has nothing to do with drugs and everything to do with politics.

If you want to end the war, you have to bust your ass to get candidates elected to office who agree to end the war on drugs. Until you start campaigning for candidates for office, start canvassing the voting public, start contributing to the campaign war chest in dollars... that is not going to happen. Most politicians consider the idea of lessening drug penalties as being "soft of drugs" and think the majority of the electorate will hold that against them. The politicians know the drug war is a failure. They know its a waste of money. They know it has not taken drugs off the street or kept people from using them. They know we have too many people warehoused in prisons in this country for drugs, that it costs too much to warehouse them, and that we waste resources by leaving them locked up. But that is not important. What is important is how many votes they get in November, and who helps them raise the money to advertise their special face and policy sound bytes... Persuade them there are political contributions to be had from those who want drug law reform. Show them the reality of it. Help get the vote out for any politician willing to take on the drug war.

When elected officials start seeing some of their own numbers advocating drug law reform being sworn in for office, they will know that "being soft on drugs" will not cost them an election. The point is that we have to persuade them that it might win an election for them by registering, campaigning, and voting.

You want to change the law? You have to be involved in politics to change laws, and you have to be active about it. You have to admit you've done drugs and don't think they are harmful. You have to stand up and be counted. Until you do, expect federal minimums to continue to be the norm.

There is either money and votes behind drug law reform, or there will be no drug law reform. Period. If you want drug law reform, you have to be a voter, a contributor to political campaigns, and you have to be vocal. We haven't been, and you can see what we've accomplished since Nixon declared a war on drugs. We have become the nation that locks more citizen up in prison that any other country on the planet. We've allowed police to invade areas of privacy we once considered inviolate. We've accepted drugs and hard time go together and are not even outraged that a drug dealer gets more  time in prison than an armed robber gets.

Public policy shapes legislation. Legislation is shaped by the views of the people we elect as legislators. We have to persuade the legislators that it is in their interest to take a look at ending the war on drugs. Make a contribution to every candidate you will vote with a message that its time to end this nonsense about war on drugs. Time to decriminaliize marijuana. Time to open the debate on better ways to control the distribution of dangerous substances. Time to open the debate on the failures and consequences of prohibition of controlled substances. Give money, work for candidates, and speak out that you believe it is time to end the prohibition and the penalties involved with possessing and using controlled substances.

That is the only way to get where you want to go. Everything else relied on reason and logic, which carry no more weight than science does for most politicians. If reason, logic, science and common sense were involved in passing legislation, we wouldn't be where we are now with regard to drugs. The fact is politicians have bought into being anti-drug as a vote getting sound byte for the nightly news, and until the people actually vote in ways that show that sound byte gets no votes, the politicians will continue to do what they have been doing. All politics is local, all of it is about greed and power, and until you tackle the problem by being part of it, you can't solve the problem.

Register. Campaign. Contribute. Be vocal. Vote. Own up to your position.
Otherwise, you are asking someone else to do for what you will not do for yourselves.


hypnos

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2010, 01:42:32 AM »
Quote
Be vocal. Vote. Own up to your position.
Otherwise, you are asking someone else to do for what you will not do for yourselves.
I agree

damn my political party is down at the moment ::)
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Sedit

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2010, 05:15:22 AM »
Quote
Be vocal

Fuck it im bord....


Can't I just shoot and stab my way to the top like normal people do? Seems to be working well around my area, there taking over the place faster then the politicians are >:(
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 01:17:42 PM by Sedit »
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hypnos

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2010, 02:32:14 AM »
this is what i mean by "good things"

Harm assessment
The chief executive of the UK Medical Research Council stated that MDMA is "on the bottom of the scale of harm", and was rated to be of lesser concern than alcohol, tobacco, as well as several classes of prescription medications, when examining the harmfulness of twenty popular recreational drugs. The UK study placed great weight on the risk for acute physical harm, the propensity for physical and psychological dependency on the drug, and the negative familial and societal impacts of the drug. Based on these factors, the study placed MDMA at number 18 in the list of 20 popular drugs.[115]

David Nutt, chairman of the UK Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, stated in the Journal of Psychopharmacology in January 2009 that ecstasy use compared favorably with horse riding in terms of risk, with ecstasy leading to around 30 deaths a year in the UK compared to about 10 from horse riding, and "acute harm to person" occurring in approximately 1 in 10,000 episodes of ecstasy use compared to about 1 in 350 episodes of horse riding.[116] Dr. Nutt notes the lack of a balanced risk assessment in public discussions of MDMA:[116]

The general public, especially the younger generation, are disillusioned with the lack of balanced political debate about drugs. This lack of rational debate can undermine the trust in government in relation to drug misuse and thereby undermining the government’s message in public information campaigns. The media in general seem to have an interest in scare stories about illicit drugs, though there are some exceptions (Horizon, 2008).[117] A telling review of 10-year media reporting of drug deaths in Scotland illustrates the distorted media perspective very well (Forsyth, 2001).[118] During this decade, the likelihood of a newspaper reporting a death from paracetamol was in [sic] per 250 deaths, for diazepam it was 1 in 50, whereas for amphetamine it was 1 in 3 and for ecstasy every associated death was reported.
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madprossor

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2010, 05:31:41 PM »
i used to buy "Stop the Drug War.org" stickers from DRCnet in bulk for about $.10 each.

i put one up on the wall in the busiest airport on earth in direct view of 100 people per minute traveling past by escalator.  some friends said i might be "undermining the legitimacy of the movement" by breaking one law to protest another.  but i have not much hesitation to post bills in public places without permission when innocent people are being jailed for life.  reclaiming the commons and such...  if those dudes were free from jail they would gladly post the sticker up.  so i represent them when i do it.  i'm fucking MAD!

yeah geez, you are 100% right that change is driven by money and votes.  the last round of change was driven by heavy contributions from Soros, Lewis, etc.  (and a bit of dispensary money from Peron.)

the current marijuana legalization bill in California is driven mainly by dispensary money.  it's actually a for-profit campaign.  the dispensary owners who contributed expect to make more money after their law passes.  (some of them have their own angles worked out ahead of time i think.)

much of the work in changing the public's perspective has been accomplished by decades of activism in concert with an internet boom.  also, the fact that they are arresting almost a million people a year for pot is generating a backlash over time...  the drug war undermines itself steadily by failing to accomplish anything useful (to the majority) while torturing so many honest folks.  it loses friends and gains enemies...

80% of people are now supporting medical access to marijuana.  and more than 50% of people recognize that recreational use of pot is less "dangerous" than use of alcohol.

under the weight of a consensus like this our opponents will look more and more like flat-earthers as they pidgeon-hole themselves in an increasingly unpopular and irrational position.

personally i think i have about three main arguments in favor of general legalization-

1) usage of the most harmful drugs would decrease as less harmful drugs take predominance
2) usage of all drugs would decrease
3) availability of drugs to children and usage of drugs by children would decrease

not to even mention all the "indirect" benefits like the reduction of collateral crimes, diseases, graft, and corruption, and the restoration of our "inalienable rights" and "constitutionally limited government."

regarding pot (which is our hardest driving wedge issue right now), i think we can make a good mockery of the opposition with the simple fact that natural cannabinoids are being used to cure and successfully treat dozens of kinds of cancer in laboratory mice/rats.  after the president and drug czar told us for so long that pot was "proven to cause" lung cancer.  we caught the fuckers in a red-face lie- a lie that denies innocent sick people a natural medicine that could slow or halt a fatal and widely prevalent disease.  this sort of behavior is impossible to justify, no matter how hard the authorities try to rationalize it many people will be appalled and unconvinced.

i think this is the angle (growing hemp for fiber/food/fuel is a strong angle also but does not have the immediate LIFE&DEATH impact that cancer does) to convince sensible people (who don't want to get high) that not only is cannabis "not such a bad thing" it is actually a wonderful healing herb that has been slandered heniously by disingenuous greedy bastards who in fact care nothing for the health of the common man despite their strident claims to the contrary.

if the newspapers will not cooperate then we shall ridicule them for their bias until people stop trusting them.  their business is threatened today already.  they are not in such a strong position as they were some decades ago to provide crappy service to their customers in the form of incomplete, incorrect, and irrelevant information.

another idea for how to legalize drugs- deserve it.

hell, the punks in this shithole don't hardly deserve any freedoms at all today.  we just let the president blow up our own buildings, frame islamists for it, and run the economy into the ground by siphoning all our money into crooked defense contracts for a cabal of aristocrats and invading another people's homeland based on obviously fabricated lies.

instead of hanging the traitors responsible from a rope until they cease to live as prescribed by law and custom we elected a niggar who isn't sorry for any of it, didn't apologize for the lies or blowing up of our own buildings, and is totally happy to stay the course and keep violently occupying other people's countries based on the same stale-as-hell-now lies.

the problem with this fucking country is the heart and soul of the people is lost to the point where they think that doing the right thing is "impossible," "pointless," and "just gonna get you knocked down first."

i think some are confused about which part of the swing of the pendulum we are now in...

the pendulum has swung *VERY* far one direction here.  but it has clearly reversed course and is now accelerating rapidly the other way.

this is the time for patriots (and matriots too?) to apply the strongest pressure possible to the weakest positions of the enemy.

that said the entire concept of representative government is a sham, a scam, and a total crock of shit.

51% of the idiots who show up to punch a lever on a certain day DO NOT have the right to elect another idiot who DOES NOT have the right to lock adults in cages because they are found to possess a few herbs for personal medical use.

the very foundation of this government is totally insane.  you could call it Satanic if you believe in Satan.

i've tried to point out to some people that "just because it's legal doesn't make it right" and "just because it's right doesn't make it legal."

but many of those people remain UNDER THE IMPRESSION that what is acceptable and what is righteous are always one-and-the-same.  perhaps they just didn't have the courage to deal with the cruel reality that in these dark times the exact converse is more probable.  don't expect THAT to be taught in public schools anytime soon.  (hell the public schools were designed SPECIFICALLY to erase such sentiments from the youth, if i'm not mistaken).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 06:04:07 PM by madprossor »