Author Topic: How to end the war on drugs?  (Read 512 times)

Vesp

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2010, 06:38:55 PM »
Great post! I enjoyed reading it, well... all of this thread -- very interesting discussions and ideas...

The idea of putting stickers in all of the places seems like an interesting idea, but I don't think it would really have much of an affect on most people -- I think everyone would tend to write that off as "oh look, some little anarchist put some stupid sticker on the wall" and not really think much of it, at least where I come from...

The more I think about it, the more I want to create a movement of some sort.

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madprossor

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2010, 11:00:33 AM »
97% of the stickers i gave away to nice people.  3% got put up on public property.  i went to an anti-war protest one day and cross-pollinated everyone with "stop the drug war" stickers.  i think some of those people might have had the balls to put them on their automobiles.  (us actual dope heads could never do that.)

anyway, for the cost of $.10 i will probably have each screaming Red "Stop the Drug War" read hundreds of times by dozens of people.  repetition has an effect.

i think the main obstacle to stopping this war is the entrenched belief that "it is not within our power to stop it."  of course you can never succeed with that philosophy.  it is the philosophy of self-defeat and i loathe it.

whether or not you agree with a message, repeated viewings of it will start to permeate your mind.  i HATE fucking fast food but repeated viewing of fast food commercials make me consider buying the stuff.  (of course, perhaps there is more "sway" in this area because it is not as deeply moral a decision.)

but humans are fundamentally irrational creatures.  we are often convinced not by the strength of arguments, but by the number of arguments presented and frequency of that presentation.

with that in mind the problem of ending the drug war can be seen largely as an issue of critical mass.

so the stickers are part of a larger "out of the closet" movement that must occur in order to build that critical mass.

i don't know exactly what the real solution is, this shit should have been fixed a LONG TIME AGO.  it was FUCKING FIXED when the first 10 amendments were ratified...  there should never have been any issue after that, but, apparently SOME FUCKING PEOPLE have been grossly mis-educated (by the schools?) to the point that they can read the amendments over and over yet not once comprehend them.

jury nullification should have nipped the drug war in the bud by the 70's.  let's say 10% of the population smokes pot.  well then it should not be possible to put together a jury of 12 random persons who will vote to convict.  if there is one smoker on the jury, he/she could acquit you.  rather than let that happen judges and prosecutors have butchered the constitution relentlessly in order to make a total farce of the 5th amendment and right to trial by jury.

there are no "fair" trials here.  they're all rigged.  they won't even let you on a jury if you state that "you would vote for legalization if it were on the ballot."  this at a time when 50% or more of people in some states would say Yes to that question.  how is this legal- to disqualify more half of the citizens from jury duty, especially when that half most accurately represents the ACTUAL PEERS of the accused?  it's not legal... the drug war is illegal, immoral, destroys healthy communities, etc...

if a slanted jury simply cannot be assembled because the ENTIRE COMMUNITY is more or less unified, then the authorities simply seize your property and assets (and sometimes destroy other property and assets and/or assault and torture you) without any judicial process at all.

what i can say is that by hiding too thoroughly and smoking weed in secret too much we eventually work against our own rights.  why would your non-toking co-workers or family members who don't smoke weed support legalization if they never know that you smoke, or that other friends of their do also?

you would have to come out of the closet first (can be quite a risk with coworkers) and give them time to judge you and decide if you're still a good person or not.  if in the end they decide you're still a good guy then you have just given them a direct and immediate reason to support legalization that they never had before- because they LIKE you and don't want to see cops beat you up, steal your money, and lock you in a cage for fun.  what before was an abstract issue- "what about some imaginary children, that supposedly could be affected" becomes a very concrete issue- "my good friend might go to jail and he hasn't done anything wrong."

man, stoners have been working at this for a LONG time... trying to be friendly, kind, a benefit to their communities.  in the hopes that eventually they stop trying to "cleanse" us.

Vesp, the movement is long since started and you are long since driving it.  By discussing useful chemistry here you hasten the end of the war...

The very existence of the Vespiary forces the issue i think.  Either the Vespiary will be destroyed or the drug war will be destroyed.  The growth of either one pushes it into conflict with the other.  And both strive to grow.

Marc Emery put his seed company into direct opposition like that.  Either his seed company stood to be destroyed or the drug war would be.  The seed company was destroyed of course but much progress was made that will not be undone.  Much of our progress comes from similar sacrafices.  Sacrafices of folks who would not wait until the "odds were stacked in their favor" before throwing their lives into the effort.  Who knows, in the end Marc might pull a Nelson Mandela and make the government wish they had just left him alone selling seeds.

Perhaps the hardest aspect of ending this war is attempting to build and maintain solidarity between all the fragmented groups involved.  Meanwhile the authorities are busy gerry-mandering us to shit so the big money interests can go about their business as usual with little resistance.  I can't go deep into the tactics, it's a basic divide&conquer approach utilized by the rich in order to get richer.  In order to maintain solidarity in the face of this, i think you have to connect directly to people's hearts.  And that my friend, takes an uncommon courage...

Or, just send some cash to DRCnet.  The cops are coming to seize it under RICO- but you could give it away to DRCnet first.  If enough people do that eventually there will be no more RICO.  On that day you are all invited to a barbecue at my house.

Vesp

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2010, 12:54:17 AM »
uploading the book (AFAIK) Rules for Radicals, which is by Saul alkinsky. and he is the expert of community organizing... I think his tactics may some how be employed, with modification of course...
I don't know...

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salat

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2010, 01:35:09 AM »
I think the issue is a lot more based on economics just like about everything else in government.  And economics is pretty much the only thing that will "end" the war.  Florida is already looking at their mandatory sentencing laws because they can't afford to keep all these people in jail.

In the 1800's cocaine, heroin, cannabis were all in common use in drugs.  I saw a recipe today that used cannabis oil for treating corns!  It isn't the specific drug and it's qualities which are really the issue.  It the pharmaceutical industry.  It isn't just drugs that make you feel good that are illegal - it's a whole host of drugs that you can only have if the FDA and a doctor says you can.  Why do we have to go to the doctor to get an antibiotic for an ear infection?  They whole system is setup to ensure we continue to pay for our heath care.

If you could take stuff like cocaine - would you need xanax, prozac etc?  And look what happens when the patents run out on a lot of these drugs - lo and behold they find out there were problems with that drug and they invent a new and better drug to replace it with.  Do you think they'd cure cancer if they could?  Why would they want to invent something you could take that would truly cure you when they can give you something at 5 grand a pop three times a week and drag it out.  That's why we have drugs like lipitor, they want you taking their stuff for life - a long stream of revenue.  If you were healthy you wouldn't be giving them bucks.

Industry pays the congressmen's salaries and as long as big pharma exists they'll call the shots on what drugs we're allowed to have.

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jon

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2010, 02:08:34 AM »
you know i have a theory about wars that should be debated among scholars.
why is it that every conceivable weapon of war is shaped like a penis?
bulletts missles bombs all take the form of a massive phallus i can't comprehend.
i speculate that it has something to do with the desire to fuck somebody over but i can't verify this.
can somebody comment on this observation?

Vesp

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2010, 02:11:34 AM »
Jon, I believe it is the shape that holds the most mass, with the least amount of friction when going in a forward motion through a substrate... ;)
Function dictates shape, right? :P
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jon

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2010, 02:40:08 AM »
yes i believe you are correct just as you said, dicktate how could it be any simpler????
so by means of deductive reasoning we can conclude in order to dictate (did i spell that properly?) one has to fuck some people over.
form and function.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 03:00:48 AM by jon »

Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2010, 11:38:41 PM »
Quote
And ask yourself if on that crazy chance the government does has a vested interest in the illicit production of herion in Afghanistan, enough to go to war over (what the fuck type of world do we live in?).

When I wrote that I must admit I failed to also take into account, some other ramifications of not getting the opium we legitimately need for the global supply of our medicines. Here is a quote from a Hudlicky et, at. paper written in 2000.;

Morphine Synthesis and Biosynthesis—An Update
Bennett H. Novak1, Tomas Hudlicky* 1, Josephine W. Reed1, Johann Mulzer*2 and Dirk Trauner2
Current Organic Chemistry, 2000, 4, 343-362

To date the most efficient synthesis of morphine is that of Rice, which proceeds on medium scale with an overall yield of 29% [7]. In order for its de novo total synthesis of morphine to be competitive with its isolation, morphine should be produced in 6–8 steps from inexpensive materials. Although such a goal appears almost unattainable given the current state of the art, a 6–8 step preparation of any of the morphine derivatives that are now produced by semisynthesis would approach competitive requirements at least for these compounds, whose preparations require a similar number of steps from morphine itself. For purely scientific reasons, morphine therefore remains a challenging structure. To insure against a drop in supply brought about by either natural or social causes in opium-producing regions of the world, the goal of synthesizing morphine or producing it by biocatalytic means remains a high priority.

http://www.brocku.ca/mathematics-science/departments-and-centres/chemistry/faculty/Hudlicky/CurrOrgChem-2000-4-343.pdf

jon

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2010, 02:50:21 AM »
the U.S. military leaves heroin production in afganistan alone because it the bread and butter of the afgan people.
a u.s. marine was quoted on this in the documentary "obama's war" when he was asked by an afgan villager "what about my drugs what are you going to do about my drugs that's how i feed my family"
he replied "were not here for your drugs"
basically to win the people over they leave thier drugs alone because that's how they survive.
and in order to get intelligence on the taliban th u.s. military needs the people of afganistan on thier side, because the taliban erradicated thier opium.
so it's good strategy.

Vesp

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2010, 07:00:40 AM »
I believe they are also paying the people for the destruction of their poppy fields... it ties in somehow with Russia having a serious heroin problem.  I don't really pay attention to that crap though since America is failing from the inside, and it is much more interesting to watch then that other stuff.
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marakov

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2010, 09:38:04 PM »
I believe they are also paying the people for the destruction of their poppy fields... it ties in somehow with Russia having a serious heroin problem.  I don't really pay attention to that crap though since America is failing from the inside, and it is much more interesting to watch then that other stuff.

It is true, but now we have Desmorphine too becoming popular. It sometimes shows up in news here. It is part of why we can't talk about it at our website. It is also part because of Theatre Crisis where many people died.

jon

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2010, 06:59:14 PM »
honestly punishment is sexy, people love to see people go down it's popular to "lock 'em up" that is'nt going to change.
why do you see campaigning politicians walking around prisons on thier ads.
it sells society does'nt care about what makes sense.
so what do you need? you need jews and todays jews are "drug addicts", niggers,mexicans, etc.
and with times getting tougher you need to put the focus on these scapegoats.
not on the bankers that bent everyone over and jammed it in thier collective, cornhole.
no we need jews send in the clowns.
now you understand why i failed composition class?

Naf1

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2010, 01:29:03 AM »
Quote
It is also part because of Theatre Crisis where many people died.

Hi Marakov, I would expect the reason the exact gas(aerosole) they used is so unclear is because the Russian government never 'unclassified' the operation. But from many (doctors ects), it was clear a fentanyl derivative was used. There is much speculation wiki claims it too be fentanyl, carfentanil or 3-methylfentanyl

"later conjectured to be weaponized fentanyl, into the theatre through the air conditioning system"

"Based on the gas' effects and examinations of victims, it appears to have been an FSB-made aerosol version of 3-methylfentanyl, an artificial, powerful opium-like substance. Government officials still treat its contents as a state secret."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

Also there are many other claims;

"Allegedly, during the 2002 Moscow theater hostage crisis, the Russian military made use of an aerosol form of either carfentanil or another similar drug such as 3-methylfentanyl to subdue Chechen hostage takers. "

Unexpected "gas" casualties in Moscow: a medical toxicology perspective.
Wax PM, Becker CE, Curry SC.
Ann Emerg Med. 2003 May;41(5):700-5.
http://web.jrc.ec.europa.eu/eis-chemrisks/toolbox/docs/terrrsdarticle.pdf

But I was watching this series years ago;
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1112273/

In which they interviewed one of the special forces(spetsnaz) soldiers that was involved in the attack, and he gave what I would describe as the only believable account. The narrator asked him point blank what the gas used was. And he clearly replied "Sufenta" and it was in medical gas canisters, this guy was a soldier not a doctor or chemist so him knowing the exact trade name and how it is stored and used meant he had seen it and was familiar with it (and also would get into trouble considering it is still a Russian state secret he was revealing). It is the obvious choice as it is used widely in anesthesia, it also has a large therapeutic index and was available as an aerosole. It makes more sense than carfentanyl (unless the Russian military has tested aerosole carfentanil and kept it secret, but it is still not as suitable as sufentanil regarding therapeutic index and sufenta was available as a nasal aerosole at the time).

There is a lot of conjecture about exactly what was used because;

Quote
Fentanyl and most of its derivatives are highly lipid soluble and have large volumes of distribution. Many patients remained in intensive care units for several days after the exposure.

That is because patients were in intensive care up to 3 days after exposure, it could not have only been one of the short acting fentanyl analogs. But if you consider that an aerosole is not going give everyone a consistent dose (some will get much heavier doses depending on location), so considering some people got very heavy doses. The truth about the several day intensive care stay, would have been the results of an overdose of fentanyl type compounds;

Quote
We can only speculate that hypoxic brain injury, as well as delayed redistribution of the fentanyl derivative to the central compartment, may have contributed to prolonged hemodynamic and respiratory instability

For example with high doses of carfentanyl that have been treated with opiod antagonist (naloxone for example);

Quote
The narcotizing effects of carfentanil may recur 2 to 24 hours after treatment with an opioid antagonist. In an investigation on carfentanil in Rocky Mountain elk, high-dose naltrexone (100 or 500 mg of naltrexone per mg of carfentanil) was an effective antagonist; however, renarcotization at 8 to 24 hours was common when only 25 or 50 mg of naltrexone per mg carfentanil was
used.“Narcotic recycling” also occurred in carfentanil-immobilized wood bison that were treated with naloxone. Given the high lipophilicity of these fentanyl derivatives, redistribution from tissue stores to the central compartment may explain the recurrent opioid effect. Similar effects are known to occur with highdose fentanyl anesthesia and may be potentiated by acidosis, hypothermia, and rewarming

quotes from paper linked above
http://web.jrc.ec.europa.eu/eis-chemrisks/toolbox/docs/terrrsdarticle.pdf

marakov

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2010, 02:05:59 AM »
the U.S. military leaves heroin production in afganistan alone because it the bread and butter of the afgan people.
a u.s. marine was quoted on this in the documentary "obama's war" when he was asked by an afgan villager "what about my drugs what are you going to do about my drugs that's how i feed my family"
he replied "were not here for your drugs"
basically to win the people over they leave thier drugs alone because that's how they survive.
and in order to get intelligence on the taliban th u.s. military needs the people of afganistan on thier side, because the taliban erradicated thier opium.
so it's good strategy.

Tylenol has plan to buy this poppy. Everyone in Russian Federation do know this and most the farmer of poppy. My friend will lose job and must grow maybe potato or wheat to live because of this. His poppy never go to crime. He pay tax and to get license from government to make the poppy. The police come and help make poppy safe to factory here. This is a only good thing police in Russia can do that I see.

Many of U.S. money will go to buy this poppy and will pay to warlord because farmer must pay warlord or there will be fire on crop and farmer will starve. The warlord get money from this. Tylenol will convert morphine into the codeine and sell to American.
Warlord will buy more weapon to attack people with the weapon for power. They will buy from American company for weapon through the other company to hide this.

Weapon will kill more American and be sold to criminal to be use in Russian roads after weapon get old.

Buying Tylenol will help the terrorist group. Bayer from Germany is do this also.

Sedit

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2010, 07:52:55 AM »
I know this is borderline against vespiary rules but the only way to truely end the WOD is to fight back...

Not with words, not with politics but fight back.  The Boston tea party didnt change things by asking please stop taxing us. Im talking all out literal war. One that we would most likely lose horribly but it would set in motion the steps needed to cause progress in this area. Maybe im just in a down swing in my polar line of thought but as the old saying goes power lies behind the barrel of a gun. We are not the ones with this power. We have knowledge and until everones knowledge has the ability to stop a bullet or prevent the user from pulling the trigger the war will rage behind the curtains the way it has for decades with little to no change until a mass of people step up and say enough is enough and a cival war breaks out... so sad but so true..... I hate this state of mind but it is indeed correct no matter how depressing it maybe.

No one cares about us!

We are the read headed stepchild here to be abused by anyone that has had a bad enough day to beat us around. Until that child starts kicking ass back the abuse will continue.

Hippys where the step child fighting back, they lost. Its not until they once again organize, this time with hate other then love that change will be seen. This will happen in most of our lifetimes, the future is written in stone and there is no change to be made in that stone. All one can do is learn to see what is written on it and figure out how to organize themselfs with the ebbs and flows from the past to AND GET ONE STEP AHEAD of what is destine...
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jon

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2010, 01:22:03 PM »
it always seemed to me that civil war was a contradiction of terms.
for example "excuse me sir, bang!"
or "pardon me sir, inserts knife" i never could reconcile the two words put together.
umm a lot of people have "fought back" and are currently serving time.
and nobody really cares, because this country is all about capitalism which implies self centeredness.
then again in communist russia it was north to siberia where you got lined up and shot for not working fast enough.
but i've served time and heard similar tales like this where for example if one were to get to far behind or ahead of the rest of the hoe squad the armed gaurd on horseback would gallop up and grap the said offending inmate by the scruff of his shirt and throw him under the horse and trample him to death.
and other stories of beatings for not making the days quota of cotton, yes they still pick cotton the old way in american prisons.
and society loves punishment as i have said previously, it's what gets politicians elected to office so these policies will continue as long as society at large prefers it that way.
why do you think the fbi breaks up militias these days?
they hate the idea of well armed and trained paramilitary threatening thier agenda it justs gets under thier skin.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 01:27:12 PM by jon »

Warwick

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2010, 01:00:18 AM »
The war on drugs is simply the byproduct of inhabiting a society in which tyranny/deception is allowed by the fearful, apathetic, and dependently sheepish population.  The ultimate answer in looking to be allowed freedom in a certain area would not be any different than freedom in all areas; how I see it at least.  I can only as free as the oppressed many in this nation.  If this realization were to be realized by some catalytic portion of the population freedom would be inevitable.  If we want chemistry to be open and free our the illegal and criminal government to be subject to the ultimate authority of a constitutional republic...  The constitution.  Wake enough of those fat hippies and the generally brain dead masses up to the fact that we're all wearing chains.  Soon enough we'll all be free, if the internment camps don't open for business before enough open their eyes.

Violent revolt is rarely (if ever) a method of revolt the populous employs.  If there's something similar beginning in the US I'd point out the likelihood their controllers are on in the same with those who ran Timothy McVeigh...  It wasn't revolutionary thats for fucking sure.  Don't need to go into more the countless other examples I'd think.  The people are many.  If they had any will, none of them could be oppressed.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 01:04:55 AM by Warwick »

Sedit

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2010, 01:11:12 AM »
It comes down to not the lack of will, but a total lack of organization. When the masses started to organize back in the 60's the WOD is the result and what your left with is a covert one sided war where we are nothing more then mite on the backs of a rabid dog. However given the right numbers and correct crippled state of the dog the mite can amass itself into an organized machine and overrun the dog into submission.

The dogs system is starting to fail in its old age and its almost the right time for the mite to devour it alive if it truely so desired to.
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You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

Warwick

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2010, 01:30:23 AM »
I'd argue the whole vision of we being the mite and the system the dog is the source of our problem.  Government has no power we aren't willing handing over as a collective.

Sedit

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Re: How to end the war on drugs?
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2010, 03:38:30 AM »
But thats just the problem. We are willing and we are able yet typical of the mental disposition of drug users is the fact of motivation. I can talk a good game and I have the will to do it but ask me tommorow to do what needs to be done, leave my current life and lead into an unknown unknown. Odds are you will get a big "no im going to chill at home and watch it on the news. hope it works out im routin for ya..." type answer from me. This is typical and true.

There can be no change without the start of it. Putting the fire under the ass is the hardest part of all if you ask me, not so much the act of causing the change once its set into motion. Hippys managed( mainly thru the use of LSD ifya ask me) to organize MASSIVE protest at what appears the drop of a hat.

What are the odds of someone organizing and amassing thousands to protest by next month? It does not fit into my schedule how about ya'll?


I must ask.....


Who here is willing to wakeup tommorow and first thing in the morning tell your boss you just smoked a joint took a hit of meth while doing a line of coke..... In its essence this is what needs to be done else we are going to wait for another 50-100 years before change if it ever gets started in the first place.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 04:23:56 AM by Sedit »
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!