Author Topic: Burning through steel...  (Read 479 times)

Tsathoggua

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Burning through steel...
« on: September 11, 2010, 09:24:53 AM »
OK, so I have a little problem.

I want to cut through some steel, most likely high-carbon really tough stuff.

Will an oxyacetylene/MAPP gas torch make the grade here? the target is around a half inch thick steel bar, and 2.5-3 inch long, I can get such a torch for not too much money.

Seen some plasma cutters on ebay for as little as 200 dollars, but thats kind of above my price range, although I know they would make mincemeat of such a target item.

Thermal lance is a possibility, but I don't want to cause collateral damage, which it would likely do and ruin the rest of what I am after.

Hacksaw with a tungsten grit abrasive wire might well wear out, not to mention leave me with a very sore arm, after a month of sundays worth of hard work.


Thermite charge might do the trick, no?

Only other idea I can come up with is trying something like fluorosulfonic acid/SbF5 mixture, or HF/SbF5, perhaps with an added oxidizing agent such as conc. HClO4, which MIGHT work, 1000x + the acidity of fuming sulfuric acid isn't to be sniffed at, toxicity concerns aside (I.E approach in gas mask, mix on the spot, pour, step well back, then come back later to dump carbonate by the metric fuckton over the area to neutralise the acid, whilst using an external O2 supply to avoid choking to death on the CO2.

Any reccomendations? high explosives,whilst they would work, are not suitable, I can't afford to put my nuts on the line so to speak, and a dirty great kablooey within earshot of an urbanish area is going to scare people unfairly.

Any ideas?
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embezzler

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 10:28:45 AM »
Hey Tsat, I think you might be over thinking it a bit... if a large bolt cutters doesnt do it then I think something like this might work and it doesnt get much cheaper....  8)


Im guessing if it welds it cuts yeah???

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lugh

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2010, 11:17:26 AM »
A grinder equipped with abrasive cutting disks is the most economical way to cut steel  8)
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Vesp

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2010, 04:57:01 PM »
I believe a sawzall or something similar with the right blade would cut steel - however, the shape and confinements of what it is you are trying to cut will play a roll no doubt.
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 05:08:22 PM »
Grinding would be too noisy, if noise were not an issue then I probably would just blow the hinges off.

Besides, no grinder I could take there.
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Vesp

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2010, 05:14:46 PM »
If it is hinges, perhaps there is an electrochemical method? I don't know. Sounds like a strange task.
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2010, 05:33:16 PM »
Old, old old safe, with hinges on the outside, and a key-lock, however I only have two of the three keys needed to open it the easy way, the third has gone AWOL.
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heisenberg

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 07:21:57 PM »
Thermite would work, and it would be in honor of today :P.
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lugh

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2010, 09:05:17 PM »
This article might help in understanding:

h**p://www.crypto.com/papers/safelocks.pdf

 8)
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Buzzoff

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2010, 11:21:04 PM »
They make a round, composite, abrasive cutting blade for Skilsaws.  Costs less than ten bucks.  At least, it used to.

Cuts through thick-walled, 6inch, cast iron, soil pipe, like butter.  Steel, should be no real challenge to the super-hard carbide particles in the blade.

Problems may arise however, with other metals.  Copper, soft as it is, resists grinding, and may bind up your blade.

I assume that this is a non-felonious project?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 11:25:20 PM by Buzzoff »

hypnos

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 11:31:35 AM »
 thermite is easy to make and cheap ;), but if its inside, you'd wanna have some serious fire prevention and extinguishing equipment handy!!! :o
  There are good cordless grinders available these days, and as buzzoff said there are some very good cutting discs around, not too expensive 8) 
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Tsathoggua

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 01:35:39 PM »
Concrete floor, should be fine unless I was crazy enough/desperate enough to use ClF3 (which in the case of an industrial spill accident, has been known to burn through a foot of concrete and almost a meter of gravel below, also ignites concrete and asbestos, and is hypergolic with pretty much any organic/most inorganic compounds one can think of)

Bloody hard to put thermite out, or impossible short of nigh instantaneously smothering the evercunting blue jesus fuck out of it with some sort of cryogenic material to deprive the reaction of sufficient heat to continue, in a substance incapable of burning, such as LN2 or liquid He perhaps, the heat from an aluminothermic reaction is quite sufficient to split CO2 apart, giving the reaction a concentrated burst of oxygen and fuel, with predictable results. Water extinguisher will yield H2 and O2, and most likely feed you your own face, not to mention if enough thermite is used, possibly recombine and do it again. Foam is going to get flash-fried extra crispy, and I shudder to think what kind of evil corrosive cloud of human flesh defoliant interhalogen/hydrofluoric acid mixture would be released from halon extinguishers.


As soon as I have money enough after I get me my new condenser and chromatography column, I am going to start working on this, my electronics skills or rather, the math skills I would need are nonexistent, thanks to dyscalculia and lack of help during my school years, but I want to give it my best shot, a good plasma torch can set one back between 300 dollars, and for really big, beefy industrial but portable/luggable models upto 20-25K, however a decent plasma cutter is easily capable of carving a good few inches of carbon steel into mincemeat in moments, so such a tool on the cheap I think, is more than worth it, and sure as hell will come in handy for welding stuff up for projects, and beats the fuck out of a crowbar, sledgehammer and diamond cutting disc in a small angle grinder for slicing scrap metal into shreds for sale.

I think though, instead of a compressed air stream, altering the design a little so as to use high pressure pure oxygen from a tank would be worth doing, as such an oxidizing flame ought to make short work of even the highest melting metals, I wouldn't be surprised at all if an oxidizing plasma jet as hot as a miniature suns heliosphere would go through metals such as chromium, titanium, perhaps even tungsten.

I am not at all fussed about leaving the safe sliced into ribbons , wouldn't mind bagging any cobalt lining present to defeat drilling, but otherwise I only wish to know if there are any  desirable contents inside, the structural outside itself, I'll be happy if I get the price of a  seperatory funnel and a few bacon double cheeseburgers from macdonalds:P

Not to mention, if ever I get burglars in the house, for burning fingers and toes off/removing limbs/disposing of bodyparts:D

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/13335163/624660269/name/HOMEMADE_PLASMA_CUTTER.pdf
Only instead of compressed air, I intend to

But I think thermite is going to be my tool of choice, for now, it is cheap and quick, and is going to burn halfway to china before it stops, given the safe is an old fashion, possibly fossilized model or appears to be, given it has no combination lock, merely an outer keyhole in a hardened steel door and a two-key inner lock on a second door to which I have both inner keys, so all that needs to go are the two protruding hinges that the outer door swings  on, and the locking mechanism itself.

Hmmmm...reading more on electrical energy-based cutting, anybody think a carbon arc  electrode with a few kV running through it might be able to toast those pesky hinges?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 01:43:20 PM by Tsathoggua »
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Sedit

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2010, 05:52:07 PM »
The grinder is the way to go, To noisy you say but im not sure im happy about helping you commit a robbery or some crime which im pretty sure is your intent.

You are indeed overthinking this WAY to much. Its only inch and a half of steel not Kryptonite. A hacksaw would make relatively short work of this compaired to the effort put into everything else. I estimate 10 minutes or less for a new blade to breach this bar.

If really needed though why not try electrolysis? Relatively slow yet quite and effective. Two terminals, one being the bar to be cut, almost touching with NaCl solution or HCl solution dripped onto it would chew it up in reasonable time.
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hypnos

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 09:27:04 AM »
IIRC one can 'control' thermite with ceramics,even good old terracota pot type clay,, you could make a mould,that you fit around the hinge ;),, do a few tests to guesstimate the thermite burn times,as you know you can 'regulate' your mixtures(forget the Fe3!!!), and "insides the prize!"....but ya gotta let us know how your safecrackin goes eh?
Go swampmonon  fuck yeah!!! 8)
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lugh

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2010, 12:46:45 PM »
You should be able to open the lock with a pick and a tension wrench and not leave much of trace of what actually happened if you study the art  8)
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atara

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2010, 08:25:11 PM »
Aqua regia is cheap and easy and should dissolve steel quite effectively. Nitrosyl chloride, the agent that does the work, is toxic and volatile, so be very careful.

jboogie

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 08:43:45 PM »
im liking the thermite idea... its quite, cheap, and quick. it will probably take less than 30 seconds to cleave the piece of steel off with a thin bead of thermite carefully held in place with some clay or silly putty...

i watched a ~2-3 pound plug of thermite burn THRU and engine block. the thermite was shaped like a small can of biscuits, and it was placed on top of a magnesium wire that ran around the base. the magnesium wire was lit and that started it. it was really bright for a second, then the can of thermite just began sinking into the block at a rate of close to an inch a second...

then it went dark and the only thing that was happening was smoke, so i thought... then about 30 seconds after ignition, a flaming hot chunk of thermite and liquid steel plopped right out the bottom of the engine block and on to the ground where it fizzled out.

a 1 inch thick piece of steel girder would bee nothing.. but there is a shit load of smoke that goes up in the process.

overunity33

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 11:40:13 PM »
you guys ever wonder what happens if you make thermite with amalgamated aluminum powder? Of course it would have to be worked in an inert environment and either pressed into a shape or soaked in oil or maybe both.

no1uno

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2010, 10:14:26 AM »
Old, old old safe, with hinges on the outside, and a key-lock, however I only have two of the three keys needed to open it the easy way, the third has gone AWOL.

Turn it upside down, take a heavy axe (none of that cheap ass shit) and hit it where the seams are, use the back of the axe or a sledge hammer to begin with, if it makes any loud noise other than plain thud, it'll cut. Safes are a prick to open when they are arranged with their strongest face up & outward, smash an axe through their arsepart and they come open easy. IIRC Shopping trolleys are the method of choice for shifting same from place to place (from long term associates). Obviously it is your safe and I am only providing a community service.

* PS for general information, pretty much EVERY till has a button underneath it that will open it (that is necessary because dumbfuck checkout operators tend to lock themselves out).

PPS Ummm, if there is anything in the safe that is likely to burst into flames if it is heated too far, stay the fuck away from thermite and oxy-acetylene. Things that tend to cook to carbon are plastic & paper/linen banknotes, etc. If an ax won't go through, use the pointy end of a pick (a full-size one) to split the metal, then use the axe to open the split.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 10:21:44 AM by no1uno »
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lugh

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Re: Burning through steel...
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2010, 11:51:50 AM »
It is certainly possible to cut through metal with an axe, especially if the metal is gotten very cold using a refrigerant  8)
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