yeah try it out diethylamine reacts with lysergic acid sure.
jon
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Vesp
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What were they selling it for? That is strange. I don't think lysergic acid and diethylamine hydrochloride just simply react.. do they?
jon
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of course they don't
NaBH4
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Of course, not only Lysergic acid and diethylamine but having easily findable that chemical will helps 

director of sound
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i have read a few synths (with out any real data though) that use a solution of lysergic acid and diethylamine or another tritary amine in an alcohol sealed in a 'pipebomb' fashion that supposedly works, ill have to dig up the data i have on that and post it later. but for now here is some stuff that might help. i have preformed both and can assure you that they work.
Production of Pure D-lysergic acid monohydrate from LAA/Ergine containing plant sources:
(all steps to be done under a red photographic light)
1.) 8 kg of HBWR seeds are ground to a fine powder with the assistance of dry ice or liquid nitrogen.
2.) to the seeds is added a chilled (30*F) acidic methanol (80% MeOH/DH2O) solution of tartaric acid (saturated). the ammount needed is just enough to cover
the powder with 1cm of fluid and is allowed to stand cold for 24 hours in the dark. more acidic methanol may be added as the seed powder absorbes it.
3.) after 24 hours the methanol is removed by vaccume to compleate dryness. the seeds are then made into a slurry with DMF/DCM and loaded into a large column,
the DMF/DCM is allowed to drain through and more is added until test drops evapurate with no residue. save the DMF/DCM filtate.
4.) the residual DMF/DCM is then removed by vaccume and the seed powder loaded back into the column and filled with chilled MeOH and allowed to stand for 2hr before
draining. this is repeated 4 times and the methanol extracts combined, filtered and reduced under vaccume to a small volume. cold ether is added to the methanol solution
untill cloudiness does not dispell and is placed in a very cold fridge for the crystals to set overnight. save this solution. this should afford 6-10g mixed LAA's as the tartarate salt.
5.) the crystals are desolved in 200ml MeOH with 11g KOH and the methanol is removed immediatly by vacuum as soon as the amide is desolved. the residue is desolved in
200ml 8% KOH in DH2O and heated with a stream of nitrogen passed through it, ammonia gas will be evolved and titrated with HCL to follow the reaction (HCl fumes profusely in
the presence of ammonia gas). as soon as it is compleate cool the solution and slowly add 2 or 3N sulfuric acid untill a PH of 3 is obtained, this will result in precipitation of crude
D-lysergic acid monohydrate. save the solution.
6.) the crystals should be desolved in 200ml abs. EtOH containing a few ml of strong ammonia (or gassed with anhydrous ammonia untill the solution has gained 3g) the solids
that do not desolve within 1 hr are inorganic and can be discarded. filter the solution through a column packed with 3in of 100 grit basic alumina/silica wetted with anhydrous EtOH.
7.) the alcohol solution is again acidified with 2-3N sulfuric acid untill a PH of 3 is obtained and is placed in the fridge overnight to crystalize. the crystals are filtered out and dried
in a vaccume desicator or centerfuge. this will yeild 4g to 8g D-lysergic acid monohytrate.
8.) there is still Iso-lysergic acid and amides in the solutions you saved. remove the solvent in all three by vaccume using only heat from a hot water bath under 80*C. desolve the
residues in a mixture of EtOH/MeOH 3:1 and combine. basify with a saturated NaHCO3 solution and extract with ether or chloroform, remove the solvent by vacuum and process
the residue through steps 5-7 for additional yeild.
9.) desolve the crystals in abs. EtOH and THF 2:3 and process through a chromatography column following the blue band with a weak long wave UV light. collect that fraction and
remove the solvent by vaccume to get pure D-Lysergic acid monohydrate.
the D-LA should be cold stored -0*C in the absence of light and oxygen.
Diethylamine
make a solution of 60g KOH/NaOH (NaOH works better) in EtOH (50ml) its okay if it dosent all dissolve. add 175ml DEET (98.11%) to this solution in an autoclavable media bottle (can withstand high pressures) and place in a crockpot (sealed) set on high. let it get to 80°C and stay there for 1.5-2hr. over this time the solution will progress from a clear soln to a dark piss yellow soln. after the 1.5-2hr remove and cool the bottle before you open it or you'll spray diethylamine vapor everywhere. fractionaly distill the solution with the addition of 20g lye to the distillation flask. the diethylamine will come over at 55.5°C (or 130°F) the ethyl alcohol will come over at 78.4 °C (or 173 °F) the M-toluic acid dosent boil till about 230°C so you wont be distilling any of that or the lye over. since undoubtedly some of the EtOH and a little water came over you will have to distill again but distill over NaOH (25g per 25ml of distillate) and play close attention to the tempetures as the fractions start coming over. the temp will continue to rise untill it hits the boiling point of the diethylamine and stop there. when it starts to climb again all of the diethylamine is across and the EtOH will start coming over nect would be the water if it didnt get trapped by the lye. you can expect to get about 30g (or 90 ish ml) form 175ml of DEET, that is enough for a few small batches as you only need about 7g per 3g of lysergic acid...
Production of Pure D-lysergic acid monohydrate from LAA/Ergine containing plant sources:
(all steps to be done under a red photographic light)
1.) 8 kg of HBWR seeds are ground to a fine powder with the assistance of dry ice or liquid nitrogen.
2.) to the seeds is added a chilled (30*F) acidic methanol (80% MeOH/DH2O) solution of tartaric acid (saturated). the ammount needed is just enough to cover
the powder with 1cm of fluid and is allowed to stand cold for 24 hours in the dark. more acidic methanol may be added as the seed powder absorbes it.
3.) after 24 hours the methanol is removed by vaccume to compleate dryness. the seeds are then made into a slurry with DMF/DCM and loaded into a large column,
the DMF/DCM is allowed to drain through and more is added until test drops evapurate with no residue. save the DMF/DCM filtate.
4.) the residual DMF/DCM is then removed by vaccume and the seed powder loaded back into the column and filled with chilled MeOH and allowed to stand for 2hr before
draining. this is repeated 4 times and the methanol extracts combined, filtered and reduced under vaccume to a small volume. cold ether is added to the methanol solution
untill cloudiness does not dispell and is placed in a very cold fridge for the crystals to set overnight. save this solution. this should afford 6-10g mixed LAA's as the tartarate salt.
5.) the crystals are desolved in 200ml MeOH with 11g KOH and the methanol is removed immediatly by vacuum as soon as the amide is desolved. the residue is desolved in
200ml 8% KOH in DH2O and heated with a stream of nitrogen passed through it, ammonia gas will be evolved and titrated with HCL to follow the reaction (HCl fumes profusely in
the presence of ammonia gas). as soon as it is compleate cool the solution and slowly add 2 or 3N sulfuric acid untill a PH of 3 is obtained, this will result in precipitation of crude
D-lysergic acid monohydrate. save the solution.
6.) the crystals should be desolved in 200ml abs. EtOH containing a few ml of strong ammonia (or gassed with anhydrous ammonia untill the solution has gained 3g) the solids
that do not desolve within 1 hr are inorganic and can be discarded. filter the solution through a column packed with 3in of 100 grit basic alumina/silica wetted with anhydrous EtOH.
7.) the alcohol solution is again acidified with 2-3N sulfuric acid untill a PH of 3 is obtained and is placed in the fridge overnight to crystalize. the crystals are filtered out and dried
in a vaccume desicator or centerfuge. this will yeild 4g to 8g D-lysergic acid monohytrate.
8.) there is still Iso-lysergic acid and amides in the solutions you saved. remove the solvent in all three by vaccume using only heat from a hot water bath under 80*C. desolve the
residues in a mixture of EtOH/MeOH 3:1 and combine. basify with a saturated NaHCO3 solution and extract with ether or chloroform, remove the solvent by vacuum and process
the residue through steps 5-7 for additional yeild.
9.) desolve the crystals in abs. EtOH and THF 2:3 and process through a chromatography column following the blue band with a weak long wave UV light. collect that fraction and
remove the solvent by vaccume to get pure D-Lysergic acid monohydrate.
the D-LA should be cold stored -0*C in the absence of light and oxygen.
Diethylamine
make a solution of 60g KOH/NaOH (NaOH works better) in EtOH (50ml) its okay if it dosent all dissolve. add 175ml DEET (98.11%) to this solution in an autoclavable media bottle (can withstand high pressures) and place in a crockpot (sealed) set on high. let it get to 80°C and stay there for 1.5-2hr. over this time the solution will progress from a clear soln to a dark piss yellow soln. after the 1.5-2hr remove and cool the bottle before you open it or you'll spray diethylamine vapor everywhere. fractionaly distill the solution with the addition of 20g lye to the distillation flask. the diethylamine will come over at 55.5°C (or 130°F) the ethyl alcohol will come over at 78.4 °C (or 173 °F) the M-toluic acid dosent boil till about 230°C so you wont be distilling any of that or the lye over. since undoubtedly some of the EtOH and a little water came over you will have to distill again but distill over NaOH (25g per 25ml of distillate) and play close attention to the tempetures as the fractions start coming over. the temp will continue to rise untill it hits the boiling point of the diethylamine and stop there. when it starts to climb again all of the diethylamine is across and the EtOH will start coming over nect would be the water if it didnt get trapped by the lye. you can expect to get about 30g (or 90 ish ml) form 175ml of DEET, that is enough for a few small batches as you only need about 7g per 3g of lysergic acid...
jon
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director of sound your technique is superb.
the only weakpoint is the fact that hydrolysis of lysergamides yeilds 35% theoretical lysergic acid and the pocl3 process 77%
not too great.
hydrazine is dangerous to handle but yeilds 70+% of a stable intermediate.
a third option would be to chromatigraphically isolate ergine from the clavines along with the carbinolamides ergonovine and subject them to a milder hydrolysis in alcohol using a weaker base which would yeild higher (ergine) then alcoholysis in methanolic hcl would yeild the d-epimer in quantitaive yeilds this could be then reacted with diethylamine in a bomb to yeild 60% or reacted with trimethyl amuminum to form an activated diethylamide complex which would yeild quantitatively.
other options include esterification with pentachlorophenol and reaction with diethylamine at stp to give quatitavie yeilds.
a bit more tedious but the yeilds are higher by a factor of 2.
the only weakpoint is the fact that hydrolysis of lysergamides yeilds 35% theoretical lysergic acid and the pocl3 process 77%
not too great.
hydrazine is dangerous to handle but yeilds 70+% of a stable intermediate.
a third option would be to chromatigraphically isolate ergine from the clavines along with the carbinolamides ergonovine and subject them to a milder hydrolysis in alcohol using a weaker base which would yeild higher (ergine) then alcoholysis in methanolic hcl would yeild the d-epimer in quantitaive yeilds this could be then reacted with diethylamine in a bomb to yeild 60% or reacted with trimethyl amuminum to form an activated diethylamide complex which would yeild quantitatively.
other options include esterification with pentachlorophenol and reaction with diethylamine at stp to give quatitavie yeilds.
a bit more tedious but the yeilds are higher by a factor of 2.
director of sound
- Larvae

- Posts: 38
i also dreamed up and idea for a large scale vacuum soxlet type extractor to use when extracting large ammounts of plant material. it would cut down the needed 50gal or so of solvent to about 10L mabey less and the whole thing under an aspirator with a hot water bath for heat would avoid the high temps that would destroy most lysergamides. ill have to post up the schematics when im done with them.
jon
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you could also isolate the lysergamides into tartaric acid and water then absorb them onto montmorrilonite clay.
solidstone
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- Posts: 102
Is there any reason why people do not recycle there solvents with the use of a rotovap (there not terribly difficult to make)?
jon
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- Posts: 1,883
rotovaps (2-3000 at least) are expensive but for molecules as touchy as this pretty much mandatory.
solidstone
- Subordinate Wasp



- Posts: 102
Rotovaps are essentially a warm water bath. A airtight swivel(used for glass blowing, easily made). A motor to rotate. A vacuum source. and a cold finger.
A functional one can be made for much less then 2-3000.
With a rotovap one could keep re-using ones solvents, cutting down on suspicious aquisitions.
A functional one can be made for much less then 2-3000.
With a rotovap one could keep re-using ones solvents, cutting down on suspicious aquisitions.
jon
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right i'd love to see a blueprint.
save us all a bundle.
lysergamides really don't like to be in solution as freebases for very long very prone to oxidation.
save us all a bundle.
lysergamides really don't like to be in solution as freebases for very long very prone to oxidation.
Vesp
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I believe I have seen smaller - questionable ones for around 150 to 200 dollars. I do not know if they would be of any interest, but I guess this is a topic for another place and another time.
jon
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well a rigged up alternative is to run a n2 capillary through a magnetically stirred solvent to be evaporated it's called "sparging"
works pretty well to carry off solvents.
works pretty well to carry off solvents.
overunity33
- Subordinate Wasp



- Posts: 218
does the capillary gas really make it evaporate that much faster? Could you just rig a room temp distillation setup with a few ambient-air capillarys, stirring and have the condensor running room temp water, have this thing sitting in the corner distilling your solvents slowly but surly?
jon
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umm you want an inert gas co2 at the very least yes it speeds up evaporation considerably.
a tapered tube allows for smaller bubbles and greater surface area of gas and faster evaporation.
a tapered tube allows for smaller bubbles and greater surface area of gas and faster evaporation.
Trips
- Larvae

- Posts: 18
Why is Director Of Sound's post cut off? Where is the rest? Also, Buchi rotovaps can be obtained complete and fully functional with Glassware off ebay used for ~500 bucks if you're patient.
director of sound
- Larvae

- Posts: 38
all i posted was a novel rout to lysergic acid and diethylamine, you could use one of many methods after that to make your fluff. SO3, trichloroacetic anhydride, lithium lysergate, PyBOP, POCl3, grignard its your choice baised on what you have available and what kind of lab experience you have.
im still working on the vacuum soxlet schematics now. but there would only be one custom piece that would have to be made. that would consist of a large hopper/tank made from stainless steel tubing (30x80cm about a 57L capacity) fitted with a suitable head that has a valve and fritted discs for filters. it would essentialy be a manual soxlet so it would have to be constantly watched while running but it would allow you to process close to 100lbs of ergot/seeds at a time using only 5L or so of a chloroform/methanol/ammonia mix. with vacuum from an aspirator applied you would only need the heat from a hot water bath to drive the distillation.
as for the labware you would need: at least a 20L 2 or 3 neck flask, 400mm graham/friedrich condenser, 400mm allihn condencer, vacuum adapter, tubing and water aspirator vacuum probally totaling close to $300 and the hopper/tank i could see coming close to $200 so mabey $500-600 over all which is chump change if you are gonna process that much material and make LSD from it. just add a heating mantle, 500ml flask and some rubber septums and you would also have every thing needed to preform the synth its self.
im still working on the vacuum soxlet schematics now. but there would only be one custom piece that would have to be made. that would consist of a large hopper/tank made from stainless steel tubing (30x80cm about a 57L capacity) fitted with a suitable head that has a valve and fritted discs for filters. it would essentialy be a manual soxlet so it would have to be constantly watched while running but it would allow you to process close to 100lbs of ergot/seeds at a time using only 5L or so of a chloroform/methanol/ammonia mix. with vacuum from an aspirator applied you would only need the heat from a hot water bath to drive the distillation.
as for the labware you would need: at least a 20L 2 or 3 neck flask, 400mm graham/friedrich condenser, 400mm allihn condencer, vacuum adapter, tubing and water aspirator vacuum probally totaling close to $300 and the hopper/tank i could see coming close to $200 so mabey $500-600 over all which is chump change if you are gonna process that much material and make LSD from it. just add a heating mantle, 500ml flask and some rubber septums and you would also have every thing needed to preform the synth its self.
Trips
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- Posts: 18
Director of Sound:
For that yield, were the HBWR seeds of good quality, or just average fare? Hawaiian strain, Indian Strain?
This is some awesome work if it does in fact work!
For that yield, were the HBWR seeds of good quality, or just average fare? Hawaiian strain, Indian Strain?
This is some awesome work if it does in fact work!
Trips
- Larvae

- Posts: 18
Has this been tried on a smaller, personal scale, or is it difficult to not lose such a small quantity of material to the apparatuses and column material?
