Methcathinone help.

loki · guinea pig

oh ok... well i'm still curious... and i've never even seen ethymorphine in anything before around here, and codeine is fairly limited in where it can be found, i can't honestly say i've seen pseudo and codeine together before.

stratosphere · Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:23 am

yeah, an interesting combo, all your uppers and downers in one pill.
ethylmorphine isn't otc where im from.
but your right, at this point he hasn't mentioned if they are gakked or not.

a-SalviaLover · eating chemicals

It's a cough syrup containing ephedrine.hcl and ethylmorphine.hcl. It's very common amongst students who would like to raise their results in sports. It's called Tussirol and is available OTC in Bulgaria. It's the cheapest source of pfed, pseudo is far more expensive than pfed here, maybe because it's synthetic.

stratosphere and loki theanks for the help people. I'll read and search more and if I have more questions I'll post here! 10x Smile

loki · guinea pig

pseudo=pfed. pretty much all ephedrine in medicines is synthetic, made via fermentation with benzaldehyde and acetaldehyde, extracted and then reductively aminated. you may be right about pseudoephedrine, now that i think about it, pseudoephedrine would have to be made purely synthetically, which means probably that it is made as the racemate and separated... you've got me thinking now... how do they make pseudoephedrine industrially? *goes off to do some searching

a-SalviaLover · eating chemicals

Maybe, but you have to consider that this preparation has ephedrine, not pseudoephedrine.

I've recently found some pills which contain pseudoephedrine sulfate and Loratadine. The deal is that they're not made in Bulgaria and probably would be far more expensive (Tussirol - 350 mg ephedrine costs less than a dollar)

loki · guinea pig

I think that this might be worth having a look at. ephedrine freebase is soluble in water, but ethyl morphine isn't. i'd say that simply by forming the freebase of ephedrine in a sufficiently large amount of water that has been basified to about 12ish, the ethylmorphine will be extracted into freebase whereas the ephedrine will remain in the water. here's some info on the properties of ephedrine:

Physical Properties of Ephedrine (l-Ephedrine)
Manske & Holmes, The Alkaloids, Vol III, p 344-347, Academic Press (1953)

The free base (anhydrous) has mp 38.1°C; the hemihydrate, mp 40°C. With 1.5% water, a eutectic mixture, ephedrine-ephedrine hydrate, with mp 32.1°C, is obtained. The bp of anhydrous ephedrine is 225°C (760 mmHg) and 152-153°C (25 mmHg) (236-237). However, ephedrine is volatile even at room temperature; a sample exposed by Read to the air showed a loss of 33% after 4.5 months (107). It is rapidly volatile at 100°C and therefore is volatile with steam (238).

Ephedrine is soluble in water, alcohol, ether, chloroform, and oils (239). The solution in water is strongly alkaline to litmus paper. The hydrochloride, C10H15ON*HCl, is in the form of white, prismatic needles of bitter taste, mp 220-221°C; soluble in 2 parts of water and in 15 parts of alcohol (95°C). The hydrobromide has mp 205°C. The hydrobromide and the hydrochloride, unlike the corresponding pseudo-ephedrine salts, are very sparingly soluble in chloroform (30). The hydriodide, from acetone, has mp 165°C (43). The sulfate is in the form of hexagonal plates, mp 247°C, soluble in four parts of water, sparingly soluble in alcohol.

Ephedrine and pseudo-ephedrine are quite stable compounds. Heating at 100°C for 24 hours causes no decomposition (42, 2 Cool

. No alteration is observed by heating the bases with 5% sodium hydroxide on the water bath (21). Unsuccessful attempts were made to racemize ephedrine and pseudo-ephedrine with barium hydroxide or alcoholic potassium hydroxide (25). However, in the patent literature statements have been made that the optically active forms of the bases can be racemized by heating them with alkali alcoholates, at temperatures ranging from 168-195°C, in the molten state, or in a solvent (274, 275). Ephedrine solutions are unstable in sunlight in the presence of oxygen (276).

On heating ephedrine hydrochloride with 5% hydrochloric acid, under pressure, at 170-180°C (248) or with 25% acid, at 100°C, the compound is partially converted to pseudo-ephedrine (20, 32, 40). The conversion is reversible and an equilibrium is established. According to Emde (39), the rearrangement takes place by replacement of the hydroxyl group by chlorine, followed by hydrolysis. Oxidation of ephedrine or pseudo-ephedrine, gives benzaldehyde or benzoic acid.

By the reduction of ephedrine or pseudo-ephedrine, the same deoxyephedrine (methedrine, C10H15N), is obtained (29, 39). Hydrochloride has mp 172°C.

A peculiar property of ephedrine is its rather violent reaction with chloroform; by evaporation of a solution of ephedrine in this solvent, ephedrine hydrochloride and aldehydes are formed. Chloroform thus can not be considered a suitable medium for the extraction and the estimation of ephedrine (245, 246).

d-Ephedrine has not been found naturally. The synthetic base has mp 40-40.5°C; the hydrochloride is in the form of white leaflets, mp 216-217°C.

dl-Ephedrine (racemic ephedrine), is the synthetic, inactive ephedrine of commerce. The free base has mp 76-78°C; hydrochloride, mp 187-188°C.
References

[20] Arch Pharm 244, 239 (1906)
[21] Arch Pharm 246, 210 (1908)
[25] Apoth Ztg 26, 368 (1911)
[28] Apoth Ztg 28, 667 (1913)
[29] Arch Pharm 251, 320 (1913)
[30] Arch Pharm 252, 89 (1914)
[32] Arch Pharm 244, 241 (1906)
[39] Helv Chim Acta 12, 365 (1929)
[40] Helv Chim Acta 12, 377 (1929)
[42] Helv Chim Acta 12, 399 (1929)
[43] Helv Chim Acta 13, 3 (1930)
[107] Chinese Med J 51, 69 (1937)
[236] J Am Pharm Assoc 24, 211 (1935)
[237] J Am Med Assoc 104, 1707 (1935)
[238] J Pharm Chim 28, 145 (1938)
[239] J Am Pharm Assoc 30, 275 (1941)
[245] Pharm J 123, 606 (1929)
[246] Pharm J 153, 178 (1944)
[248] Arch Pharm 242, 380 (1904)
[274] US Pat 2,152,976 - Chem Abs 33, 998 (1939)
Ger Pat 673,486 - Chem Abs 33, 4274 (1939)
Brit Pat 490,979 - Chem Abs 33, 5003 (1939)
[275] US Pat 2,214,034 - Chem Abs 35, 754 (1941)
[276] Ind Eng Chem 23, 21 (1931)

a-SalviaLover · eating chemicals

That's too bad cause I was planning to separate the alcaloids from the syrup by doing an acid-base extraction Does this mean that phed won't go to nonpolar I i try this way?

loki · guinea pig

now i understand why i've always had no luck at all getting ephedrine to acid/base extract, it is too water soluble as a base. if you have ephedrine, you basically have to steam distill it. unlike pseudoephedrine, however, the freebase of ephedrine only requires simple steam distillation and not forced steam distillation. I really do think that you will have no luck extracting from that preparation unless you do steam distillation. the price difference between ephedrine and pseudoephedrine probably reflects the barrier to entry for extraction being a distillation apparatus.

I would say that the only non-distillation method of extracting that might work is dry basing it, perhaps using magnesium oxide and a very small amount of water, mixing it up thoroughly so the magnesium hydroxide forms and liberates the ephedrine, and then heating it with naptha or toluene or hexane on top. no water means nowhere else for the ephedrine to go.

separating ethylmorphine is more tricky. i found some solubility data on it, ethylmorphine HCl is less soluble in alcohol than water (40g/L vs 100g/L). it is likely that it would precipitate out preferentially to ephedrine HCl in an alcoholic extraction.

urgh

now i understand why pseudoephedrine is the preferred precursor to work with, freebases which are highly soluble in water are a pain in the ass to work with.

seems to me it would be much easier to work with pseudoephedrine. i doubt that the amount of ephedrine in the ethylmorphine combo mixture would be anywhere near as high. when oxidised either alkaloid becomes the same, methcathinone, same chirality etc. ephedrine's dose is usually 25mg whereas pseudoephedrine is 60mg. So the ethylmorphine/ephedrine mixture is most likely going to contain half as much precursor as the pseudo pills, if the cost difference is double for the pseudoephedrine, it's worth the cost, you get more precursor with less pain extracting.

check out the 'straight to bee III: the pickled P' thread for a recently developed method of extracting pseudoephedrine which looks really simple and has many claimed excellent yields from virtually any pill (i looked at the thread at wetdreams about it and there was more than a few positive reports).

a-SalviaLover · eating chemicals

a bottle of the syrup (140 ml) contains 350 mg ephedrine.hcl and 140 mg ethylmorphine.hcl. The syrup conains ethanol.

a-SalviaLover · eating chemicals

Do you think that a preparation containging these two chemicals would do the trick. I've no idea what's its price. The active ingredients are:

1. Loratadine - 5 mg
2. Pseudoephedrine sulfate - 60 mg

loki · guinea pig

i know the exact pill you are referring to. and yes, it's wonderful! just extract it to the freebase in hexane and crystallise in the freezer. the exact preparation you are talking about is no longer available widely in this country, only the 120mg one with 10mg loratadine (12 hour), and it has povidone and a nasty dual-dose layer thing which contains rosin... it's not hard to get this pill extracted, standard acid/base followed by recrystallisation gets a good 80-90% yield out of this pill, i'd say the extraction directly to freebase would be even better yielding.

so you see what i mean about yield... 350mg of ephedrine at half the price or 1200mg of pseudoephedrine at double the price of the former. and not only that, ephedrine is a bitch to extract even from the plant ephedra sinensis (supercritical CO2 and steam distillation have been the only way to do it that has worked, and the expense and equipment requirements have made this unpopular).

a-SalviaLover · eating chemicals

I'll use those pills then. Let's hope they're not too expensive. Loratidine wasn't written as a salt, but I see it has amino groups in it and I don't know whether it would go into the nonpolar or in the polar solvent!

loki · guinea pig

it's not a salt, and it's not soluble in water either, both amine groups are in rings, one has a double bond on one side and the other is bonded on all three sites. it might be able to form a salt but i seriously doubt it. in any case it's as the freebase in the pills. the worst thing that could happen with it is that the ester at the end of it could be hydrolysed which would only result in it converting to an acid which would become more water soluble in the alkaline solution (which is the inverse of the pseudoephedrine).

loratadine's chemical structure

the pills have povidone in them, but it doesn't seem to greatly interfere with acid/base extraction. swim uses them with a simple acid base (boil in water, filter, basify, extract into toluene, dry, extract into acid) followed by recrystallisation in dry acetone/alcohol but swim thinks that the stbIII-ppp will work even better with them... but he hasn't tested this yet. the 12 hour pills he uses which are of the same brand contain a soap which might be annoying for the stb. so swim says just use a regular a/b on them and recrystallise, yields of around 80% are easy to achieve in practise.

stratosphere · Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:23 pm

just another fact to consider is the octanol to water log partition coeffecient for free base ephedrine is 1.4 (see chemfinder). which means that although ephedrine base might be soluable in water if given a choice in a 2 layer system the concentration will be 10^1.4=25 times greater in the octanol layer then water layer. of course this is under pristine conditions with no other junk present and is measured at very low concentrations(represents the limit as the amount of ephedrine goes to zero)

for p-ephedrine the octanol to water log P=0.9, (10^0.9=8 )