Author Topic: Dateline - Strike  (Read 877 times)

xxxxx

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 10:44:39 PM »
That definitely is looking like a good solution, what opinions would people have as to what way a wiki like that should be structured. Should it cover all drugs or just certain types? Should it give details about the synthesis of precursors etc. All ideas and opinions welcome.

overunity33

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2011, 10:57:37 PM »
I guess you would have the classes of drugs like the rhodium archive is concerned, and all the drugs listed in those classes.  Clicking on a drug will show its synthesis methods, literature, etc.  Clicking on the precursor compounds in the synthesis will take you to their page which will have its synthesis, literature, etc and so on..

Natural products can be organised by species or class of compounds present etc - wiki's are just so good for this.

Shake

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2011, 11:40:40 PM »
Consider a ts3 from this perspective.

in the "war on drugs" we assemble our best tricks, tips and hints into one book, with all new updated strategys and hand it directly into the hands of the enemy.

From there they construct thier illicut chems list, they make solvents azeotropes to we cant use, they substitute chems we can use for something else that we cant use they ban plants, they ban oils they ban glassware they build thier whole strategy to suit..

I think the idea of putting synths in lamens terms is not a good idea at all.. Now given there are some who will take the knowledge and use it for its intentions ie personal use amongst ones own circles or whatever, but there are others that will just cook up batches of toxic shit.. labs will pop up everywhere i think about 10 percent of the audience may be worthy but the rest are just retards or drones

and yeah i know fuck all about guns lol

Vesp

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2011, 12:41:23 AM »
Did the TS and the other "how to" books do more for or against our side for the war on drugs?
I think it is important to inspire other people more so than it is to try and hide what cannot be hid anyways...
Plus, the more inconvenient everything becomes for everyone - the more the public will realize how ridiculous the war on drugs is - Perhaps our goal should be to get things like sodium bicarbonate and small plastic bags regulated and behind counters?


Quote
i think about 10 percent of the audience may be worthy but the rest are just retards or drones
What makes someone worthy?
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Oerlikon

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2011, 01:57:25 AM »
Vesp,contrary to popular,but dangerous belief that "all people are equal" there are many things that make people worthy or unworthy.
Attitude,self-control,intelligence,persistence,what he does with this supstances etc.

For example,few of my friends who have more experience than me in chemistry
and they all wanted to make some honey,but I was only one who seceded.
Why!?
First of all,PERSISTANCE! They said things like:"WOW,stirrer hotplate is insanely expensive!","Safrole/PdCl2 is impossible to get!"...
I got all the precursors and quite exotic equipment for our standards(stirrer/hotplate,vacuum distillation rig...)
in less than 2 months,spending all my savings on that.
I also spent at least half year of studying the subject,different methods,asking people...
Than another half year of work with toxic chemicals in inadequate conditions and never before seen procedures
until I got first few grams of MDMA.

I did all that to experience something I believed is one of the most magnificent supstances ever created,
w/o risk of eating toxic crap,frying brain,ruinng my opinion on MDMA,supporting organized crime and
enabling my friends to do same.

Doing that I met great people(You,jon,and many others on this forum),learned more
about chemistry in practice and theory than in whole high school and got ultra-pure free drug of choice having time of my life!

And you know what!? It was well worth it and I would do it all over again!
Welcome to my lab,
where you can choose your own dreams!

DopeBee

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2011, 02:21:35 AM »
Quote
From there they construct thier illicut chems list, they make solvents azeotropes to we cant use, they substitute chems we can use for something else that we cant use they ban plants, they ban oils they ban glassware they build thier whole strategy to suit..
How about don't act so paranoid, and try tapping into the creativity part of the brain rather than the fear center. LE rely on their targets becoming scared and paranoid. And just as Vesp pointed out, the more they ban the more they lose legitimacy (ie making Iodine list 1).

DopeBee

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2011, 02:34:02 AM »
Quote
They said things like:"WOW,stirrer hotplate is insanely expensive!","Safrole/PdCl2 is impossible to get!"...
I got all the precursors and quite exotic equipment for our standards(stirrer/hotplate,vacuum distillation rig...)
in less than 2 months,spending all my savings on that.
Yes but would you have even known about the Safrole route to MDMA if it weren't for Shulgin/Strike/Rhodium/Erowid/Hive/etc. disseminating information? Many people will always argue against releasing valuable information, but thankfully the aforementioned figures weren't the easily scared or swayed types of people and had their own ideals and opinions.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 02:36:32 AM by DopeBee »

Vesp

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2011, 03:01:28 AM »
Well in all fairness, they perhaps did not know that they would go so far as to change and regulate every substance that could possibly be used..
But I really do feel the more chemicals are named as "restricted" the less anyone will care, they will be  annoyed by the war, and a few other things - certainly the tactic if trying to hide out on fewer and fewer sources is not going to work at all - especially as less and less people get the inspiration... I think information for all is important, and whatever aids the communication of such research/discoveries needs to be done...

I don't believe someone is unworthy or more worthy of a certain synthesis or "certain information" in this respect... The lazy will never succeed, the scope creeps will always create unobtainable projects and goals, etc... everyone has their daemons and what not... we don't need to be kicking anyone while they are down - so to speak.... might as well try to help everyone. I think that is the best tactic - hence The Vespiary...  of course, I do not think others should be crippled by the k3wls who do no research of their own, and can't follow simple forum guidelines.. but if they can read a book to become educated they very much so deserve the information with in it...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 03:04:20 AM by Vesp »
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psychexplorer

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2011, 03:03:13 AM »
IMO the good books from authors like Shulgin and Strike, and volumes of online contributions from authors like Rhodium and Drone 342 advanced the underground more than they hurt it.

The fact of the matter is that there are so many ways to get from point A to point B. Finding, evaluating, and describing them is an incredible undertaking. Were it not for these resources many of us would still be convinced of the superiority of inferior mechanisms we found or conceived on our own, even though we could have found the "better" routes given enough time.

I'm not concerned about any more bans being of consequence. The good, direct precursors which can be banned are, for the most part, already banned. There isn't a whole lot more banning they can do without severely crippling innocent parties - which they might do, but they don't need another chemistry-oriented book to spur them to do it.

By contrast, sources like Fester and &T did the community a lot of harm.

It isn't the information itself which prompts bans. The information is already out there. The DEA chemists know what we know and follow what we follow. They can inform management of what could be used for synthesis, and they don't need our books to do it.

So far, it isn't the chemists opinions which prompt bans.

The bans start when too much cookery goes mainstream and the politicians have to do something about it. Remember, every chemical they ban or reformulate impacts innocent parties, and even cognitive fascists would prefer not to create unnecessary collateral damage and blowback.

The high science out there isn't fueling the low budget cooks - they couldn't understand it if they tried. Bees have been paranoid for years that drug warriors are out to get them, but that isn't really the case. Don't get me wrong, drug warriors would love to bust bees if they had the chance, but bees aren't the goal. The drug warriors are more concerned with the hillbilly meth cook running a lab in a Motel 6 and sending addicts out into the community to steal psuedo and NH3.

For example, I don't care how good a review of the many pathways from catechol -> MDMA or styrene -> methamphetamine becomes, the vast majority of people who even would consider doing it because they want product to sell or use can't do it. To that crowd of amateur cooks, quality science is no more useful than the nuclear weapon schematics at Wikipedia are to the general public, none of whom can get HE U-235 or Pu-239.

If the public at large were capable of running a Grignard, society wouldn't be in the state of mass ignorance required for the drug war.

Look at the (albeit work-heavy) pathways starting from OTC. They're already in a state of existence impervious to bans. What are they going to do, take away our toluene and HCl?

The only popular drug they've put beyond the reach of the typical capable chemist, from precursor bans alone, is LSD. All of us should be quite familiar with the reasons a home total synthesis is impractical. Many of us should know why neither Claviceps culture or HBWR extraction are all that practical.

That being said, I don't think that making this information widely public does anybody any good. Anyone capable of competent underground chemistry, not cookery, already knows how to seek out that information. We don't need more Totse archives nor do we need more Fester books at The Pirate Bay. The underground chemistry community gains nothing by pandering to cooks or indulging the (typically immature) fantasy/wannabe chemists.

Private forums and private wikis are good. Much like the networks which sell us what we can't make, everything works out best for everyone on a need to know basis. The more ignorant the general public remains, the better. They have no use for the information which does exist, nor do they have any cause for "concern" as long as they don't know it exists.

The more I think about it, a private, password-protected wiki seems like a much better idea than a book, a zip archive, or anything else in an easily shared format. Let a wiki collect and distill facts created among forums. Threads are great for discussion, but they're a horrible archival and reference medium.

What makes someone worthy?

We can draw a fairly bright line at the ability to understand what is being said and the chance of figuring it out given enough time.

One group operates on science, theory, and experimental results. The other operates on instructions, recipes, and cookery. That latter group is not part of this community, nor could they carry out what is being discussed. That group had enough trouble with psuedo -> meth.

This latter group also includes all the immature fantasy chemists who think "cooking" drugs is "cool" and hang out, with no sense of purpose, just to live vicariously through others.

Since they have nothing to gain from a compilation of quality science, there is nothing for the community to gain by attempting to enlighten them.

psychexplorer

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2011, 03:26:26 AM »
For example, one of my issues with an archive like Rhodium's is the sheer overload of procedures calling for something like LAH. When I do browse, if a title makes me think there might be something like LAH or NaBH3CN involved, I do a quick search of the document before becoming engaged in study.

It's good chemistry, so it should be in there. The issue lies in the presentation.

On a wiki, it would be easy to move those procedures calling for reagents too expensive or too unavailable to too many people to the bottom of the page.

Since the wiki concept is editable whereas a paper reproduced verbatim is not, it would also be simple to lay sections out for readability. That might include something like a supplies list at the beginning, so anyone who does have a limitation can quickly move on, without denying the information to those who can use it. This prevents procedures from being written for a specific country with the quite common assumption the rest of the world doesn't exist. For example, anyone in the US should be trying to work around the lack of Red P, but in Eastern Europe, it is no problem. Another procedure which might absolutely require a fume hood (due to things like Br2 or potential HCN evolution) should list that upfront, rather than let an equipment-challenged person read halfway through the experimental workup only to discover they can't reproduce it.

Shake

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2011, 03:35:55 AM »
they dont ban chems based on how it can be made, they ban them based on the ones they find in lab busts.

And lab busts happen when people get greedy, stupid ect..

here we are, a higher class of people than ur average drug cook, considering giving our hard work away to everyone, for the greater good?

who you thinks gonna be happiest about our finds?

good people who want what we want? to spread love? or do u think we will be handing something powerful into the hands of scum, who will ruin that route for us too, because they will exploit it to no end, abuse it.

They dont appreciate what it is because it is so simple and spelled out.. it devalues it

jon

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2011, 05:16:26 AM »
that's why you don't spoonfeed if someone asks unintelligent questions give them stupid answers in turn.
if they are'nt dedicated they will become discouraged soon enough.
a lot of people complain i'm bullshitting about halosafroles saying they don't work.
well, that's not my fault it's a lack of dedication and persistance that is to blame.
it is difficult in chemistry to work with gasses.
a lot of things are deceptively simple on paper, murphy's law always comes into play.

Quote
How about don't act so paranoid, and try tapping into the creativity part of the brain rather than the fear center. LE rely on their targets becoming scared and paranoid. And just as Vesp pointed out, the more they ban the more they lose legitimacy (ie making Iodine list 1).

you hit the nail on the head LE operates through fear they can't be everywhere all the time so they use intimidation.
the result is quite effective.
no one can trust the other because you never know who is the rat.
these days your own family will rat you out.
90% of thier work is accomplished through intimidation.
they would'nt be on the government take if they actually wanted to work.

lugh

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2011, 05:46:15 AM »
Quote
For example, one of my issues with an archive like Rhodium's is the sheer overload of procedures calling for something like LAH.

Lithium aluminum hydride was used by Shulgin and other academic pharmaceutical chemists despite the fact that it's rather dangerous to work with  ;)  Other reduction methods that aren't as hazardous can be substituted, but that calls for skills and knowledge that normally take a long time to master  ::)  Rhodium and his staff devoted more time than you can probably imagine creating that archive, and our reward was complaints  :P  As far as the drug warriors, they want to lock every perpetrator they can locate, whether they're rednecks or not  :o The fact of the matter is that no good deed goes unpunished, and misinformation is too common  8)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 05:49:44 AM by lugh »
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Shake

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2011, 07:34:01 AM »
It takes serious dedication to learn a full mdma synth and the mechanisms behind it from scratch, to gather chems, build equipment, get some decent lab technique with no teachers or classes only learning from mistakes..

not just anybody can do it, it takes someone who is seriously dedicated to learn everything and to be able to pull it off.. i can relate to Oerlikon.. for those type of people, how the synth is written is only gonna slow them down a bit but theyll get there coz they are freaks..

I almost sent myself mad trying to get there.. failed 4 or 5 times before i did it. you just dont know what the fuck to look for what is right or wrong it takes alot of practice and alot of mistakes. after another 16 hours of working on a synth and getting no crystals, walk straight back to the lab, start washing some more sass and starting the whole fucking thing again..

i dont think it can ever be a recipe style write up, you just cant go into something like this that blindly or you will fail

Just a side note, i am glad we dont use SWIM here, that is so lame, and what might look like just a chemistry forum screams drug cooking forum when everyone is referring to them self in the 3rd person and writing swim which stand for someone who is me for crying out loud lol
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 07:40:01 AM by Shake »

psychexplorer

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2011, 01:12:24 PM »
Quote
For example, one of my issues with an archive like Rhodium's is the sheer overload of procedures calling for something like LAH.

Lithium aluminum hydride was used by Shulgin and other academic pharmaceutical chemists despite the fact that it's rather dangerous to work with  ;)  Other reduction methods that aren't as hazardous can be substituted, but that calls for skills and knowledge that normally take a long time to master  ::)  Rhodium and his staff devoted more time than you can probably imagine creating that archive, and our reward was complaints  :P  As far as the drug warriors, they want to lock every perpetrator they can locate, whether they're rednecks or not  :o The fact of the matter is that no good deed goes unpunished, and misinformation is too common  8)

Don't forget the availability and the cost.

I'm not complaining about the work all of them put in. I appreciate what they did and I support inclusion of the described procedures, ready reagent availability notwithstanding. Sure, somebody might get away with a Red-Al or NaBH4 substitution, but that is beside the point.

The point was that the manner in which the archives is kept is dated. Adding new copied and pasted articles to a list with an HTML editor is old technology and the labor-intensive nature of that technology shows in sub-par optimization and community input. We now have tools like wikis which allow for far richer editing and hyperlinking. If something about a procedure is an issue then it can be pointed out in a way which works for more people. That is the good part of wikis - their emphasis tends to be proportional to community need.

Oerlikon

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2011, 01:19:29 PM »
DopBee has point here!
It's one of the oldest techniques of totalitarian regimes,and is there any more totalitarian regime
than this one,behind mask of democracy.

For example,Nazi GESTAPO had very,very limited number of agents but people
were convinced that they are on every single step,it was extremely effective technique
that could run for "thousand years".

On other hand,in most commie states,spies really were all around!
Too big bureaucracy fucked them up.

Back on chemistry...
Shake,I researched numerous techniques from Internet and book but decided to use hybrid betwen
BrightStar(to get ketone) and Dr.Gonzo(reductive amination with nitromethane).
Biggest problem for me was that those synthesis were written mostly from USA perspective
where things like MeOH,IPA,nitromethane,p-benzoquinone,PdCl2 etc. are very OTC and easy to find.
Here,those chemicals are allmost as hard to get as safrole itself while others like NaOH
DMF and glassware are very OTC.
I got great yields of ketone but very inconsistent,depending on solvent used for extraction,
that confused hell out of me!
I failed 4-5 times on reductive amination and I still curse anyone who tells that it can be done
effectively in EtOH or IPA. Yeah,that's right,I wasted cca. 30g of precious ketone listening to
foolish advices that MeOH isn't essential for this step.
I won't even start about p-benzoquinone and how much hours and nasty chemical exposures I gone trough
to get usable amount!

Jon's method might be one huge battle won on war on drugs since it uses VERY OTC chemicals
that simply can not be banned w/o doing great damage to economy and overdriving LE systems.

It's key to victory!
Find easiest route to most potent but dangerous and addictive supstance(fentanyl,meth...)
and totally kick-ass but benign supstance (MDMA,MMDxx...) at the same time,using only chemicals that can't be banned
without ridicule of public(make them ban bleach,HCl,IPA,ammonia,common salts...),
great impact on industry(H2SO4,ammonia,solvents,nitrates,phosphates,carboxylic acids...)
or those that can be easily extracted from nature.
LE have limited number of personnel and finance,key is in overdriving them!
Welcome to my lab,
where you can choose your own dreams!

Tungsten.

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 12:48:32 AM »
why not just make a vespiary wiki? then everyone can add and edit... I would be all over a synthesis as well as a natural product section

I second this idea.
-W

overunity33

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 02:40:41 AM »
it really is the best way to do it, think WAYYY expanded rhodium archive with all the reagents, intermediates, precursors organized and crosslinked... not to mention it would be AWESOME if we could easily upload and link references, that way we could have a page where it has all of the missing references in the wiki instead of a reference request thread.

Sedit

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 02:43:14 AM »
I attempted to compile our reference section into a user freindly database... It backfired and this site kept being taken off line due to copywrite infringment.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

Vesp

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Re: Dateline - Strike
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2011, 02:45:46 AM »
Its on the to-do list...
And I have put a lot of thought into how it should be done... and how to fix the copyright issues...
Its just not super easy to execute such a project - but it is something I plan to do and work on.... and I won't let the scope creeps kill the project ;)


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