Author Topic: Dateline - Strike (Read 877 times)

salat · « **Reply #80 on:** May 05, 2011, 11:44:12 PM »

"When something is posted, it needs to be right"
Trails of dead bodys wont help

Actually about 99% of the traffic on the various chemistry forums could be resolved by a "we tried this and it don't work" list. Knowing what has been tried, under what conditions, and the success will sure help stop the reinvention of the wheel.

I read a lot of old hive threads and they are sometimes as confusing as heck - very often it is impossible to determine who was right or wrong.

The one thing that helped me gain a critical eye for synth's is the posting over at wetdreams of the Detailled Methods of Chemists where they discuss the bromo safrole synth. There is a correction in the thread - Someone reading the original document translated the temperature requirement as 130 C instead of 130 F.

BFD right? Do you know how many threads, synths etc etc been done, pipe bomb developed the whole 9 yards all based on that one piece of wrong information. And it's still making the rounds and people are still trying to do the thing using that wrong information.

An idea that occurred to me if you're going to do a wiki. Each ingredient in a synth could be a link to a substitutions list. Not everyone has access to all of the chemicals that ideally would go into a synth.

So it might look like

100 ml EtOH^{Sedit (76%)} or 100 ml MeOH^{psychexplorer (62%)} or 100 ml DCM ^unverified

Salat

salat · « **Reply #81 on:** May 05, 2011, 11:47:16 PM »

Code: [Select]

they can never ban that one its all otc chems really
Bite your tongue. There is no such thing as otc chems that can't be fucked up someway, somehow if industry is sufficiently motivated. Water maybe...

Salat

Shake · « **Reply #82 on:** May 05, 2011, 11:49:29 PM »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PFQbckZivM&feature=related[/youtube]

That is uncle fester!!

Old School

you know what i like about this guy?

he has done all this without a computer, just had his head in the books.. he wrote his replies, in the argument with elusis by hand and his friend took them and typed them up for him

psychexplorer · « **Reply #83 on:** May 06, 2011, 04:19:29 AM »

Quote from: Sedit on May 05, 2011, 07:37:32 PM

I found this and its something along the lines of what im thinking. These sort of things are all over Wiki yet they don't get in trouble for it or watched by the government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strychnine_total_synthesis

Check out MDMA artical
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA

All the work we would have to do is expand the chemistry portion of these text to suit our desires. If specific pages where spidered and added all that information to the data base it could grow very large very fast.

The strychnine total synthesis is purely academic and of no practical value to anyone with illegal plans. Troublemakers are going to get much further with an RDX synthesis or a ricin extraction.

The relevance of the strychnine TS is historical in nature, including a connection to a Nobel Prize. On the other hand, discussing the total synthesis of lysergic acid would be largely irrelevant to that crowd, as anyone with real academic or clandestine interests will be looking towards other sources which can't be edited by a bored 13 year old from his iPhone. We definitely shouldn't expect the non-existent lysergic acid TS article to narrow in on the Hendrickson-Wang with precise instructions and pitfalls to avoid.

Nobody is hassling Wikipedia or the journals because (in the government's eyes) they have a valid reason for discussing potentially abusable substances. The government will not extend the same courtesy to (as they used to refer to the Hive without naming it) a site dedicated to drug abuse.

I'm not quite sure that the finer, more technical points of MDMA chemistry would be within the scope of the MDMA encyclopedia article, even if it weren't a bad idea to put something as high visibility as Wikipedia at the cutting edge of drug chemistry.

The MDMA article is already extremely long. Judging from the size, it's probably already over the rule of thumb. Writing up the benzodioxole amphetamines alone, including just the information deemed most useful, is an undertaking even larger than TSII.

Wikipedia covered the small scale precursor most commonly heard of, safrole, as well as the most common large batch organized crime route. That should be enough for anyone not doing the chemistry or studying the chemistry. I'm not sure what people skimming that article would get out of the finer points of amphetamine chemistry, other than a bit of kewlish fun by living vicariously through the Internet. Turning Wikipedia into TSIII will play right in the hands of the cognitive fascists and moral crusaders as soon as the family values politicians and children of overprotective parents stumble upon step by step instructions on the world's most popular reference site.

Remember, our drug experimentation and use isn't hurting them at all. As long as they don't know it is out there, they have no reason to totally flip the fuck out and pretend that it is. The Dateline documentary posted at the beginning really shows how mainstream society thinks. That documentary was written, cut, and edited specifically to stir up moral outrage and terrify its square, conformist viewers. Look at how they felt the need to keep those private tapes playing on a loop, that "I love drugs" catchphrase in particular. You, the upstanding, moral Dateline viewer are supposed to be horrified, HORRIFIED that such things happened in private years before anybody else found out about them. That documentary, from beginning to end, was programming for the easily influenced, designed to keep their robotic horror and revulsion at the thought of drugs in high gear.

How many of us can blend in well with so many others who would throw a shit fit if they had any clue what we do in private? We have to let them cling to their stereotypes, at least until they're ready for reeducation. One reason ignorant people cling to their stereotypes is that they'd be horrified to know what the people they associate with actually do in private. They have to convince themselves their pastor is not a homosexual and the businessman next door doesn't have a thing for recreational psychedelics, so they invent all sorts of straw man stereotypes, believing that all gays and psychedelic users must look like something straight out of San Francisco or straight out of San Francisco, respectively. Since the stereotype rarely fits perfectly, the ignorant can remain attached to their cognitive dissonance.

SnB MA would take a few sentences to explain, and fortunately that isn't on Wikipedia either.

Current or occasional of illegal drugs, excluding weed, are already a slim minority. Of that group, how many have ever done real drug chemistry, SnB MA excluded? The magnitude has to be on the order of 10^-5, or possibly 10^-6.

psychexplorer · « **Reply #84 on:** May 06, 2011, 04:36:35 AM »

Quote from: salat on May 05, 2011, 11:44:12 PM

Code: [Select]
"When something is posted, it needs to be right" Trails of dead bodys wont help

Actually about 99% of the traffic on the various chemistry forums could be resolved by a "we tried this and it don't work" list. Knowing what has been tried, under what conditions, and the success will sure help stop the reinvention of the wheel.

I read a lot of old hive threads and they are sometimes as confusing as heck - very often it is impossible to determine who was right or wrong.

The one thing that helped me gain a critical eye for synth's is the posting over at wetdreams of the Detailled Methods of Chemists where they discuss the bromo safrole synth. There is a correction in the thread - Someone reading the original document translated the temperature requirement as 130 C instead of 130 F.

BFD right? Do you know how many threads, synths etc etc been done, pipe bomb developed the whole 9 yards all based on that one piece of wrong information. And it's still making the rounds and people are still trying to do the thing using that wrong information.

An idea that occurred to me if you're going to do a wiki. Each ingredient in a synth could be a link to a substitutions list. Not everyone has access to all of the chemicals that ideally would go into a synth.

So it might look like

100 ml EtOH^{Sedit (76%)} or 100 ml MeOH^{psychexplorer (62%)} or 100 ml DCM ^unverified

Salat

An excellent point.

We have to consider the time aspect to this discussion as well.

This discussion is being had on forums in 2011, not on Usenet in the early 90's.

Certain topics are pretty much done and closed. Construction of HCl gas generators, for example, has been done to death and not much further can be said in the way of facts. We can discuss what we built and used in a retrospective blog-style posting, or we can help somebody else build theirs, but we shouldn't expect any new revolutionary advances in the chemistry behind it.

Not much sense in having such a basic thread here or anywhere else when it was fully UTFSE material back at the Hive. Due to the poor organization of all that archived material, so many settled bits of science aren't readily accessible, no matter how good somebody's search skills. Things always get missed.

If somebody needs chloroform and can't buy it, there is essentially only one practical answer to that, and it might as well be as fixed and referenced like a melting point. Along that line of thought, several of the simpler things have a very limited number of practical routes for those who can't buy them directly. How many ways will the clandestine chemist make his own Et2O or Br2? That section should be brought up to reference grade, and quickly, too. That will be among the simpler tasks.

The substitutions are an excellent idea for quick glance research. Knowing that the same reaction has been carried out successfully with a list of interchangable reagents or solvents would save enormous time and frustration wondering whether something which is generally substitutable will kill the yield, kill time, or kill the chemist, from some unexpected catch arising only in a specific situation.

jon · « **Reply #85 on:** May 06, 2011, 05:21:05 AM »

strychnine is a lousy poison to use for assasination and nobody bothers to synthesize it anyway all you have to do is extract it.

The Lone Stranger · « **Reply #86 on:** May 06, 2011, 10:44:54 AM »

"Actually about 99% of the traffic on the various chemistry forums could be resolved by a "we tried this and it don't work" list. Knowing what has been tried, under what conditions, and the success will sure help stop the reinvention of the wheel."

I agree .Just giveing people a best method and the newest ideas isnt enough . The wiki idea is exelent but there needs to be a parallel strategy .People need to see the ideas that got rejected and why on the way to whats in the wiki or they could just read the wiki and then start to have ideas that they think will help but wich have already been shown to be not good ideas .

Shake · « **Reply #87 on:** May 06, 2011, 12:13:45 PM »

i could re write bright star in 1 page.

the thing is stupidly over complicated.

and gas generators come from people once cookin meth and getting thier crystals that way and applying it to this synth, gassing is the biggest mis information thing out there. the hand held, pump up weed sprayer gasser, damp rid and hcl together, give it a few pumps and gas into your dry xylene but let me say, every new comer in this feild sets a up dr gonzo style gassing apparatus with h2so4 NaCl and NaOH or something like that dripping it onto salt

this synth can be done otc and with no glassware. at 40 - 50 percent yeilds end to end. assuming you are not shovelling stoimetric amounts of benz into your wacker.

this is why i am trying to develop the cleanest 02 wacker possible, this will bring yeilds up neck and neck with benzo wackers and wont require distillation of the ketone

DopeBee · « **Reply #88 on:** May 10, 2011, 03:42:10 AM »

Quote

Turning Wikipedia into TSIII will play right in the hands of the cognitive fascists and moral crusaders as soon as the family values politicians and children of overprotective parents stumble upon step by step instructions on the world's most popular reference site.

Sounds like fear-mongering. Erowid has step by step instructions as well, why don't you lobby to get them taken down as well? We need to keep moving towards the open-source model if we want to reach more people. Obviously Vesp has great leadership and organiaational qualities to get it started, and overunity too. Once it's started it could definitely have a snowball effect. Or it could be insignificant and die out.

akcom · « **Reply #89 on:** May 10, 2011, 05:07:23 AM »

Quote from: Shake on May 06, 2011, 12:13:45 PM

i could re write bright star in 1 page.

the thing is stupidly over complicated.

and gas generators come from people once cookin meth and getting thier crystals that way and applying it to this synth, gassing is the biggest mis information thing out there. the hand held, pump up weed sprayer gasser, damp rid and hcl together, give it a few pumps and gas into your dry xylene but let me say, every new comer in this feild sets a up dr gonzo style gassing apparatus with h2so4 NaCl and NaOH or something like that dripping it onto salt

this synth can be done otc and with no glassware. at 40 - 50 percent yeilds end to end. assuming you are not shovelling stoimetric amounts of benz into your wacker.

this is why i am trying to develop the cleanest 02 wacker possible, this will bring yeilds up neck and neck with benzo wackers and wont require distillation of the ketone

There are always going to be side products, you can't assume that just because there aren't any quinones that you don't have to distill.

Shake · « **Reply #90 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:59:57 AM »

i agree, but the mechanics of the reaction will say what those products might be, the probem in 02 wackers is the catalyst. Side products might be.. what.. h20? unreacted safrole and aldehyde tend to separate from thick ass ketone
the oxygen source is molecular 02 so all on all it is a fairly clean process

im not saying that distilling the ketone is not a good way to go, but if fairly clean ketone can be extracted, and ran directly, then that does away with the whole need for a distillation apparatus, assuming one can get clean oil to begin with..

think, to get rid of it all, and be able to do it with out setting up and cleaning up glassware, the risks involved with having glassware, and the added time to a synth. even if yeilds were 20-30 for a noob, from 100 mills oil, if i was a noob and i scored 20g out of a ext without having any equipment id be cheering!

akcom · « **Reply #91 on:** May 10, 2011, 02:31:51 PM »

The aldehyde and original alkene are not the only side products. Beta hydride elimination after nucleophilic attack on the methyl carbon is competitive. Granted I've only run the wacker twice, but I never saw the the aldehyde and safrole separate from the ketone.

psychexplorer · « **Reply #92 on:** May 15, 2011, 02:37:53 PM »

Quote from: DopeBee on May 10, 2011, 03:42:10 AM

Quote
Turning Wikipedia into TSIII will play right in the hands of the cognitive fascists and moral crusaders as soon as the family values politicians and children of overprotective parents stumble upon step by step instructions on the world's most popular reference site.
Sounds like fear-mongering. Erowid has step by step instructions as well, why don't you lobby to get them taken down as well? We need to keep moving towards the open-source model if we want to reach more people. Obviously Vesp has great leadership and organiaational qualities to get it started, and overunity too. Once it's started it could definitely have a snowball effect. Or it could be insignificant and die out.

Well, Erowid isn't the same as Wikipedia. For starters, upstanding citizens don't visit Erowid to research innocent subjects of all flavors.

When the sheeple come face to face with drugs, they revert to their socially conditioned responses of revulsion and disapproval. We need to push back against this, but on matters of public policy and harm reduction.

What can be gained from a very open, in-their-face approach to clandestine chemistry?

During American prohibition, speakeasies flourished in every city of any appreciable size. Anybody who wanted to drink and exerted the most basic effort to find the source was able to drink. Roughly one quarter of the adult population had visited or obtained alcohol from these illegal drinking establishments at one point or another.

The alcohol was illegal, and certainly there was enforcement, but the clandestine nature of the speakeasy meant they could continue operating and serving their purpose while the three quarters of the adult population who never used them could maintain a certain degree of cognitive dissonance about alcohol in their communities, much as our current society does with regard to something like cocaine abuse, on Wall Street versus in the ghetto.

The sort of person neither able nor willing to seek out clandestine channels is unlikely to be able to handle anything than the most simple one pot shot.

The epidemic of MA labs should prove this point. MA has always been available. It used to be cooked out in the wilderness by west coast gangs who were buying P2P and MeAm by the drum. Back then, the source was known, but there was no public moral panic.

Now enter the stereotypical toothless hillbilly cooking crank in a cheap motel or trailer park in Anytown, USA. Once that stereotype proliferated through the media, and the public was scared by this supposed new meth epidemic (the only thing new was a more democratic form of production via smaller labs), all sorts of new restrictions and laws emerged, just as various retailers became gripped with drug paranoia on everything from toluene to iodine. It could no longer be ignored because it was right in peoples' faces, where they could no longer ignore it.

Eradicating the small labs won't do a bit of good in the long run. Mexican cartels are already stepping in to supply as much MA as the market can afford to buy. In the long run, the total availability won't be affected. Had the public remained ignorant of what that source was, MA would still be coming from OTC psuedo by people supplying their own habits, instead of burning through their money funding foreign crime cartels.

The availability didn't change. The problem was the public became more aware of where the drugs came from, with the source being right under their nose. That set off a moral panic unlike business as usual where people assumed drugs came from brown foreigners in lands far away.

We need the public believing that supply is somebody else's issue happening far, far away, particularly on the more eclectic psychedelics for which there won't be enough profit motive for cartel traffickers. Out of sight, out of mind.

TSII is all over filesharing sites. Anybody who wants it can find it, but outraged parents aren't creating a public fight over children finding it in the junior high library.

Wizard X · « **Reply #93 on:** May 16, 2011, 03:05:52 AM »

Uploaded, X-files Strike Dateline Interview (Parts 1 to 5), 96Mb to http://www.filefactory.com/file/cb45118/n/X-files_Strike_Dateline_Interview_(Parts_1_to_5).zip

DopeBee · « **Reply #94 on:** May 16, 2011, 09:32:08 PM »

Quote from: psychexplorer on May 15, 2011, 02:37:53 PM

upstanding citizens don't visit Erowid

So then what kind of citizens do visit erowid, psychexplorer? Lowlife citizens? Piece of shit child molesting citizens? What do you think about us citizens that visit the Vespiary?

Quote

When the sheeple come face to face with drugs, they revert to their socially conditioned responses of revulsion and disapproval.

Obviously you do too if you believe that anyone who visits a drug information website must be something other than an "upstanding citizen."

Quote

We need to push back against this, but on matters of public policy and harm reduction.

Public policy will change with the younger generations who are more open-minded and willing to experiment with mind-altering substances. The more people use mdma and psychedelics today, the more moderate they will be towards drug use tomorrow. Much of the wealth and power is held by the older generations who are easily scared into believing that 1) drugs nowadays are somehow more dangerous than they were "back in the old days," or that 2) drugs are put on Earth by the superdevil to tempt us into joining cults and aborting fetuses.

Quote

What can be gained from a very open, in-their-face approach to clandestine chemistry?

Free speech.

Quote

During American prohibition, speakeasies flourished in every city of any appreciable size. Anybody who wanted to drink and exerted the most basic effort to find the source was able to drink. Roughly one quarter of the adult population had visited or obtained alcohol from these illegal drinking establishments at one point or another.

Having a party and ingesting illegal substances is not protected under the constitution last time time I checked. Comparing the Vespiary to a speakeasy is like comparing a chemistry textbook to a crackhouse.

Quote

The sort of person neither able nor willing to seek out clandestine channels is unlikely to be able to handle anything than the most simple one pot shot.

When you say things like this it makes me think that you don't want to practice your hobby openly, as if you're proud that you can "seek out clandestine channels" and others cannot. Go ahead and stay hidden I guess, if that's what you prefer.

Your ramblings on methlabs and chemical restrictions was filled with so much nonsense and BS I just don't don't have the patience to tear it apart sentence by sentence.

Quote

We need the public believing that supply is somebody else's issue happening far, far away... Out of sight, out of mind.

Think outside the box. We need the public to become educated and have open access to scientific/academic information so that they can make informed decisions, rather than falling victim to social influences and prejudices.

Quote

TSII is all over filesharing sites. Anybody who wants it can find it, but outraged parents aren't creating a public fight over children finding it in the junior high library.

Kama Sutra, Mein Kampf and photos of vaginas and penises won't be found in a kindergarten class, but they can be found on Wikipedia and Google. What's your point?

reDEEMed · « **Reply #95 on:** June 12, 2011, 05:00:27 PM »

Quote from: Sedit on May 04, 2011, 02:58:24 AM

The copywrite issues where partly my fault. When I setup the search engine for the site it allowed ALL bots to index the damn thing instead of just the search engine spider so next thing I knew I was comming up #4 on google search engines under some terms.. Is there a way to get a site unindexed?

Pretty sure you can just include noindex or some such one liner in the pages header. It's been years since I had to do that, but I do remember doing it. It's definitely doable.

Sedit · « **Reply #96 on:** June 12, 2011, 05:59:21 PM »

I had the no robots.txt and what not to prevent indexing included but when I installed the search engine I had to remove it for a short time and in the process it allowed them all to be index.

. Its my fault, I now know how to selectively allow crawlers and what not but its to late and the damage has been done.

reDEEMed · « **Reply #97 on:** June 12, 2011, 06:06:38 PM »

What about your average joe running a spider here? You may want to explicitly stop that if possible. I've done some pretty impressive hacks of private messages and emails on sites back in the day just by running a spider and I am by no means a hacker. It's alot like these goof balls cooking meth with the farmer's ammonia and some batteries, it's too easy lol.

I'm positive that shit won't work these days, however, running a spider yourself, especially as an admin, it's very telling. I can't remember the one I used to use, but I'd fire it up, go to bed and when I woke up I had the whole site, private messages and all. Mind you that was many years ago and I was a little punk lol.

I miss the days of sub7.

The Lone Stranger · « **Reply #98 on:** June 12, 2011, 10:45:26 PM »

For kiddys and kiddy spiders Robots.txt ,<meta name="robots" content="noindex"> might work but for any sensible spider they are as effective as saying "Pretty please" . There are also loop back tricks where the spider just keeps going in circles and jackinthebox tricks where the spider just keeps going deeper and deeper untill the computer wont acept it any more and keeps writeing the last jackinthebox.html over and over again . <------ them fuckers are real cunts because the file name path gets so long that one cant copy or delete the spidered site without a bit of trouble and thinking . BUT for any half way decent spider their aint nothin yu can du to stop them . Any site you can see a decent spider can see . Even dickheads like me can download pages or make screenshots ........ SO ...... big brother would laugh in ones face = all one can realy do is keep morons out . <--------- says he after weeks of trying to spider several juicy sites ......... and failing ........

reDEEMed · « **Reply #99 on:** June 12, 2011, 10:51:03 PM »

HAHAHA

Author Topic: Dateline - Strike (Read 877 times)

salat

Re: Dateline - Strike

salat

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Shake

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psychexplorer

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psychexplorer

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jon

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The Lone Stranger

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Shake

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DopeBee

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akcom

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Shake

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akcom

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psychexplorer

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Wizard X

X-files Strike Dateline Interview

DopeBee

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reDEEMed

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Sedit

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reDEEMed

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The Lone Stranger

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reDEEMed

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