Author Topic: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...  (Read 2846 times)

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #120 on: February 26, 2011, 04:34:47 PM »
Guys,this isn't going the right way!
Don't fight, PLEASE!

How about we all get our glassware,chemicals and try this method w/o modifications!?
We are scientists (sort of),not kids!
If we all got similar or same results using the same technique...
who givea s crap if like 0,001% of dibromo is formed!?
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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #121 on: February 26, 2011, 07:36:19 PM »
Just to give you an update everyone. I have my bromosafrole product isolated now. Its has a sweet kind of fruity smell? Once my NaI arrives I'll get working on the Finkelstein and amination. I am also planning to use ammonia for the first attempt, mainly just to remove the variable of generating the methylamine.hcl which I haven't done before.

Could someone please point me towards Jon's original discription of this method? I have a feeling I'm missing something. I would like to follow Jon's method first so we can either confirm or challange it. Therefore shedding a bit of light on what is really necessary for this most elegant route.

Thanks again for all the help everyone,
Palladium

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #122 on: February 26, 2011, 07:52:20 PM »
Just going trought my archive on that subject:

You are supposed to weight out mass of dry IPA in some kind of long
glass like burrete and put it into cold (dry ice!?)
Now gass it with dry ammonia from the bottom with long glass rod until you get 10-25% by weight ammonia.
(use something inert and dry like silica gel or steel wool to increase volume of the IPA in the process and make
sure to use something against backflow)
when you determined how much ammonia you got in your IPA (must be over 10%,higher the better)
use 15:1 is the ratio for ammonia:halosafrole in moles.
Put everything in the flask and stirr/shake until it changes color.


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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2011, 08:02:46 PM »
Thanks for the help Oerlikon! I'm learning a lot with this experience. A couple of things I have found.

1. When it says an aspirator has a valve to prevent suckback, it DOES NOT mean it won't suckback!
2. When it looks like your going to get an emulsion, shaking harder does not help!
3. Before adding reagents, check your stiochiometry calculations AND the chemical equation!
4. Don't start adding random shit in the hope of separating an emulsion, just let it sit.

They are all very newbie mistakes but I just though some news bees can benefit some of my mistakes.

Also Sedit, I have attached a picture on page 4 of the color of my GAA solution following the addition of NaBR and H2SO4. As you can see it has a yellowish tint. I added the H2SO4 over maybe 2mins without any external cooling, as Jon said this is not very exothermic. http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1697.0;attach=3400

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2011, 08:13:35 PM »
It'a all about learning! Keep the good work!

I use something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/8mm-Fuel-one-way-valve-petrol-diesel-non-return-carb-/350442107623?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_Boat_Engines_EngineParts_SM&hash=item5197fa32e7
To prevent suckback on aspirator and on gassin aparatus.
It works GREAT!

Don't bother with Br2 and dibromo.It doesn't appear in significant quanitites.
From what you described you got very pure bromosafrole.

What was that thing that appeared in two layers you described!?
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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2011, 08:36:33 PM »
That one way valve is a great idea! Never thought of that. I did something stupid. When evaporating off the DCM under vacuum rather than setting up for distillation I just stuck a vacuum adapter with a stopper in it into the round bottomed flask. I ended up with like half a litre of water in the flask with my product floating around the bottom. Thats a whole lot of suck back!

What do you mean about the layers, I don't quite get the question?

Any ways I'll keep everyone updated although my lab technique leaves a lot to be desired!

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #126 on: February 26, 2011, 09:22:35 PM »
Few posts back you mentioned that you got two layers afte drying bromosafrole with MgSO4 and evaporating.
What was it!?
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Wizard X

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Make HydroBromic Acid.
« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2011, 10:10:03 PM »
Commercial 48% w/w HBr contains Br2 (75 ppm) through dissociation of 2HBr => H2 + Br2 and has a pale yellow colour. Trace amount of hydrazine (10 ppm maximum) to improve its color stability and minimize dissociation of 2HBr => H2 + Br2.

Quote
Hydrobromic acid-H 48% solution is a heavy, corrosive liquid with a sharp, pungent odor and a color ranging from colorless to pale yellow. This product contains a trace amount of hydrazine (10 ppm maximum) to improve its color stability.

Ref: http://www.albemarle.com/TDS/Bromine_chemicals/BC0106F_HBr_acid_H_48.pdf

Make HydroBromic Acid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmS4roFTr08
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Sedit

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2011, 11:47:08 PM »
And yet we have people here who, even with horrible technique, are still getting results in line with jon's observations.

How's that acetic acid coming?

Anyway, this is all sort of a moot point, I'm waiting on one or two chems to arrive and then we'll have a proper right up here with the picture you requested.  Should be a simple matter of put up or shut up.

That Acetic acid is not comming, it is an experiment that is completed. Matter of fact before I even released it to the public it was for the most part completed and I decided to share. Its production was done for an experiment I may just decide to share at one point or another that is much more valuble then bromosafrole ever could be but the results of that experiement have not been repeatable enough or steady enough to fully disclose. Palladiums pictures prove my point in that Br2 is formed. On top of that his looks very nice so much props are given there. It can indeed get much worse then that if one is not careful. Wizard just posted a reason showing that Br2 is unavoidable if the solution is allowed to sit. Im confident that if Palladium use Phosphoric then the color would be even lighter then that if not completely with a color so light its pretty much mute.

Since you mention TLC then you should be able to quickly and simplely give an answer on the amount of Dibromo formed so if that could be run then it all is a moot point. I honestly can not wait to see the results because I have never seen a TLC run on this reaction.
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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #129 on: February 27, 2011, 12:42:15 AM »
Few posts back you mentioned that you got two layers afte drying bromosafrole with MgSO4 and evaporating.
What was it!?
It turns out that was just me being incredibly stupid. I was evaporating of the DCM under aspirator vacuum unattended. When I checked on it first I had a bottom light brown DCM layer with a water layer on top.
I left it evaporating and was eventually left with a similar volume of a water white solution with a brown crust on top. I didn't see the pool of product floating at the bottom of the flask!

What happened was I got a load of suckback from the aspirator which I mistakenly thought couldn't suckback!
So you can disregard all that shite I was talking about!

salat

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #130 on: February 27, 2011, 01:37:41 AM »
It did have a gunk layer that got cleaned out.  If you look early in the thread Jon explained there'd be a small layer on top of the bromo. It was repeated by my husband twice and he had no problem getting the bromo or doing the finkelstein swap.   The safrole for my husband's batch turned color immediately, but he used a lot less GAA and made a much more concentrated solution.  His Iodo was a really dark red purple. 

Salat



Salat

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #131 on: March 07, 2011, 11:22:21 PM »
Just to give everyone an update. I managed to sort out all my bromosafrole extracts. Final yield was approx 41g (0.169moles). Their was a large amount of loses, due to solution flying out of beaker when stirring, being spilled on the floor, excess volumes of solvents etc.. Newbie mistakes. On adding a small portion to conc. H2SO4, the bromo sat as a layer on top and no interaction was noted.

Anyways to 41grams of bromosafrole their was added 32.6 grams (0.219 moles) of NaI in approx 120ml Acetone, roughly 1.3 equiv. This solution was stirred for 40 minutes at room temperature before being poured into a sep funnel. dH2O was added until 2 distinct layers formed as in "First Iodo Separation.jpg below.

The top organic layer was separated and the water layer was subsequently extracted with 3x50ml DCM.

The iodosafrole had a distinctly different smell and colour to the bromosafrole. It was still a very dark solution, but when it had a dark greenish-yellow tint when swirled on the sides of the beaker.

I have all my gassing apparatus/suckback trap made now , just waiting for all the water to boil off from my methylamine solution made by the interaction of Hexamine with HCl.

Hopefully this works out!

akcom

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #132 on: March 08, 2011, 01:13:19 AM »
Looking good man, nice to see a comparison!  Did you notice any purple-ish tint in your bromosaf when you added it to the H2SO4?

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #133 on: March 08, 2011, 01:34:21 AM »
Well done!

You don't need to evaporate the water from methylamine.HCl
Use water solution of this + water solution of NaOH to get relatively dry
methylamine gas and bubble it in cold IPA.
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jon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #134 on: March 08, 2011, 04:58:26 AM »
oh yeah that's a little test.
you take ice cold sulfuric acid and add a drop of halosafrole.
if it sits on top then it's the goods.
if you see purple in the sulfuric acid it is'nt fully reacted.
i have about 30 ml of that very dark colored liquid and it's from over a year ago i can't seem to remember if it's iodosafrole or if it's bromosafrole.
but because it is'nt burgandy rather deeply dark i'm inclined to think it's the former.
you know how you get e-tarded and sloppy and stop taking notes well that's what i did.
so i don't remember what it is.
one thing when you make methylamine don't dare boil that off into the open atmosphere use an aspirator.
methylamine sublimates into the air and you'll never get rid of that stench.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 05:08:37 AM by jon »

Wizard X

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2011, 06:18:13 AM »
Since -CH=CH2 to -CHICH3 is the objective. Make HI and react with safrole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_iodide

Like HBr and HCl, HI add to alkenes[4]

HI + H2C=CH2 ? H3CCH2I

Hydriodic acid.
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/hydriodic.html
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/hydriodic.argox.html

http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/pdfs/CV4P0321.pdf
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solidstone

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2011, 07:07:45 AM »
do we not have to worry about the acid cleavage of the cyclic ether bonds?

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #137 on: March 08, 2011, 07:51:54 AM »
Ya akcom, I did notice a somewhat purpleish tent in the bromosafrole. It was very dark but on swirling up the sides of a beaker or after adding to the H2SO4 it had a noticeably very dark red/purple color.

Looking forward to seeing your results!

atara

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #138 on: March 08, 2011, 06:07:47 PM »
do we not have to worry about the acid cleavage of the cyclic ether bonds?
It is an issue, and it is worse with the heavier halogens, since these are better nucleophiles and will more effectively attack and cleave the ether (thiolates will cleave it even in basic condition, being extremely nucleophilic), but it seems that hydrohalogenation occurs faster than ether cleavage, meaning that ether cleavage doesn't hurt yields too much, and probably not too much for the method to be viable.

akcom

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #139 on: March 08, 2011, 08:18:03 PM »
Why go through the extra steps of generating HI (and dealing with disposing of H2S) when HBr is so easy?