Author Topic: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...  (Read 2846 times)

salat

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2011, 12:22:26 AM »
I haven't finished making methyamine myself yet.  I have worked up some xBee said didn't react completely before deciding to try for myself.  It is confusing I know.  The first batch he did, dodn't get enough methylamine in.  2nd batch I don't think water may have been the problem.  IT takes us forever to do things.

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Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2011, 01:40:58 AM »
Again,use ammonia if making methylamine is taking too long.
Use same procedure and you will get MDA.
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jon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2011, 01:56:29 AM »
always tare the weight of the alcohol and the vessel you gas into and make sure you combine whatever is in the suckback trap with the gassed solution weigh this to determine the number of moles of methylamine, or ammonia and, the solution concentration then, use the 8-10/1 ratio methylamine to halosafrole.
the concentration can be as low as 10% and it will still work. (w/w concentration of methylamine dissolved in alcohol)
make sure your calculations are straight before procedding.
15/1 is the ratio for ammonia.
in gram moles.

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2011, 10:40:39 PM »
I gave this a go tonight. Don't be to hard on me, this is only my first synthesis! :)

Anyways I followed Jon's method using this amounts below:

100ml / 105 grams GAA
88.4 grams NaBR
80.1 grams H2SO4
73 grams Safrole
 
I first started by vacuum distilling my Chinese sassafras oil to yield a clear water white oil which really refracts light, hopefully safrole! I then made up my 40% GAA solution by dissolving all the NaBr in 100ml of GAA. A lot of the salt didn't dissolve but that's ok isn't it?

I then proceed to slowly drip the H2SO4 into the solution. It heated up a small bit and there was some HBr fumes evolved but they were easily controlled by placing the flask in a cold water bath while stoppering it. It was then placed in the freezer for approx. 20 minutes to cool the solution.

Once it was cooled, I swirled the flask to break up the small layer of NaBR that had settled on the bottom of the flask. I then added the safrole all at once. I fucked up a bit here. I hadn't as much distilled as I thought, so I only added 58grams of Safrole rather than the calculated 73 grams. Will this fuck up the reaction?

I now have it left in the freezer for 24hours and will crash with water and extract with DCM as was outlined earlier.

Now I just have to go make some Methylamine while I wait for my NaI to arrive. Hopefully I get something from this! Fingers crossed!

RoidRage

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2011, 11:42:48 PM »
Can't comment on the reaction since I'm not familiar with it, but nice work and pictures ! :D

I will still add with pretty much confidence that you won't end up with nothing even if you fucked up on the safrole ratio as it's not the limiting reagent for sure  ;) . Depending of the reaction's mechanism,it can changes something or NOT, I can't tell for sure. 

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2011, 12:01:01 AM »
Ok thanks for the reply. I am just a bit worryed about possible overbromination due to the higher concentration of HBr to safrole? I'll try keep this updated. If I can get this working I'll write up a PDF of the method with photos and stuff. This seems like a really great and simple method if it works. It would definatly match the infamous Brightstar or Dr. Drool synthesiss!

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2011, 12:52:19 AM »
Yeah,it's great method,we thought the same thing about write-up!
More people do it,the better!
Only thing that stoped me from doing that reaction before was lack of sassy and time.

You can't overbrominate unless you expose too much to UV,head and some catalysts and what not...
Jon also mentioned multiple times to add all safrole at once and don't stir.

After how long your safrole changed color!?

Keep us updated!
Good luck!
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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2011, 01:17:20 AM »
I didn't stir at all once I added the safrole as Jon advised. The color change was almost immediate. The minute I started adding its turned dark green almost black.

Hope that's right lol!

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2011, 12:28:53 AM »
After 22 hours the reaction had turned a very dark red colour, almost black. On removing the flask from the freezer I carefully decanted off the majority of the solution into a beaker. I then added approx. 300ml of water to the flask to dissolve all the residue and salts still in the flask. This was then added to my 1 litre separator funnel and the organics were extracted with 3x75ml portions of DCM until the water layer was cloudy but colourless.

The DCM extracts of the residue were combined in a beaker. The water layer was then discarded.
Next approx. 500ml of ice cold water was added to the decanted Bromosafrole which was placed in the separatory funnel. The Bromosafrole was then extracted with 150ml, 50ml and 25ml portions of DCM till the water layer was again colorless.

Both of the DCM extracts were then combined in the separatory funnel and washed with 300ml of water.
Following this I proceed to wash the DCM extracts with a sodium bicarbonate solution to neutralise the GAA. Then something terrible happened! I got an emulsion! I tried breaking it up with brine, by adding more water and more DCM without much luck. I'm stuck with a lot of pale yellow emulsion which is refusing to separate back into the nice brown bromosafrole layer. Anybody have any ideas how I can fix this? I have the mixture left overnight to see if it separates. I have a feeling it might have something to do with temperature as my lab is unheated and the temperature drops too about 6-10c. Could that make a difference?

Also would it be possible to use CaCl2 to dry the product as I don't have any MgSO4 on hand, although I should be able to get it if needed.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2011, 01:21:02 AM »
How do you mean "bromosfrole extract" AND "DCM extract" !?
Correct me if I am wrong but you use DCM to extract bromosafrole.
I think that you mean "bromosafrole separation" on 6th pic.

Just leave it as long as it takes to separate, don't add anything now.
And heat that lab a bit!
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RoidRage

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2011, 01:30:50 AM »
I don't understand this part:


Next approx. 500ml of ice cold water was added to the decanted Bromosafrole which was placed in the separatory funnel. The Bromosafrole was then extracted with 150ml, 50ml and 25ml portions of DCM till the water layer was again colorless.


I suppose you're washing the decanted bromosafrole with that water, but I don't get why you extract it with DCM when you could just proceed to the next step directly.

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2011, 01:36:58 AM »
It's probably just me being stupid! I probably could of saved myself some time and solvents by not bothering with that!

Thanks for the advice about the emulsuon. I'll let it sit and see what its like tomorrow when it gets a bit warmer .
I really should put a heater in there or something, I just don't want any solvent vapors exploding ! :P

RoidRage

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2011, 01:40:39 AM »
Don't bother with that next time  :D

Great work and pictures again by the way. Looking forward for more ;D By the way, how is it going with the methylamine synthesis?

Vesp

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2011, 01:42:32 AM »
Quote
I'm stuck with a lot of pale yellow emulsion which is refusing to separate back into the nice brown bromosafrole layer. Anybody have any ideas how I can fix this?

I have heard that running an emulsion through a filter can help, but I don't really understand why.

Possibly freezing the water would force the other solvents together and  out of the ice. or get it warmer so the bubbles of solvent join together more easily.

However no need to add more variables to the experiment so I guess just let it sit.
And also excellent posts! :D
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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2011, 01:56:31 AM »
I'll let it sit for 24 hours, if there is no progress, I'll try heat the mixture and hopefully that would do the job!
I haven't started the methylamine synthesis yet, I might have a go tomorrow while I wait for the emulsion to separate. I'm planning on using the hexamine/hcl method to generate the methylamine though I'm still a bit unclear about the method. Anyone have any tips I should know?

Finally I don't have any molecular sieves atm, would I be able to get away without drying the methylamine/IPA suction if I start with reagent grade IPA and I am carefully with the gassing?

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2011, 02:51:09 AM »
It's better do write-up with mistakes than yelp all the time like me. ;D
But I will do it one day! Soon!

Use most dry and most expensive IPA you can obtain.
Last step doesn't tolerate water.

Jon explained on this forum how to make methlymine form NH3 and CH2O
using boiling brine,beer bottle and slight vacuum.
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fractal

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2011, 04:35:44 AM »
Finally I don't have any molecular sieves atm, would I be able to get away without drying the methylamine/IPA suction if I start with reagent grade IPA and I am carefully with the gassing?

There is no careful with gassing, it produces water and heat which lead to water vapor. If your not gonna dry it all the way it's pointless from what others have said. Sieves cost $12 for 100g, well over worth what swiy'll lose. You can get anhydrous electronics grade IPA (99.953%) for $26/gallon.

Oerlikon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2011, 05:09:32 AM »
Actualy no heat and water vapour is present if bases are diluted to some extent while gassin.
But go for it anyway! Mol Sieve,CaCl2,MgSO4...they all work!
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jon

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2011, 05:55:38 AM »
dude !
first learn stoichiometry
80.1 g h2so4= .952 g moles h2so4
and
80 or so grams of nabr is like .77 g moles of nabr
you have a shit load of sulfuric acid floating around that can wreck your safrole.
but a testament to this method is that you made that boneheaded mistake and still got product.
potasium carbonate is typically used but it does'nt matter just wash the acids by adiing equal water and dropping bicarb and swilrling until the fizzing stops
wash with water then brine
that's it.
it will be dry enough.
next time run it by me.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 06:00:16 AM by jon »

WazOne

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Re: Yeee Haaah!! Jon's method DOES TOO work!! Bromosafrole...
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2011, 06:29:03 AM »
yeah dont put a heater in there..jesus..
wait till tomorrow if no seperation...

How about a bucket of warm water and lower your sep funnel into that.