Author Topic: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda  (Read 494 times)

sassa

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street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« on: December 09, 2011, 03:44:21 PM »
Hi again!.
  That question was talked about large time ago,on another forums too,...i know...but there are things that i can´t not figure out  how we can´t explain...
   I´ve made a blind test with friends with 3 types pure mdma ,vs 1 type pure mda,vs. 2 types good street crystal mdma from a reliable source(all lab tested).
   I have to say that from begining,when i proved pure mdma from the first time.i´ve notice effects where good but not as so good as good street crystal.I talked time ago, had notice that street mdma works on me on an more speedy,crazy loving way,but pure mdma worked with same loving intesity,but a lot more weak about speedy quality and "mindblowing" quality too.
   I supossed ever there was related to cutting agents with that street mdma,but crystal mdma on europe,seems it´s not usually cutted with any active ingredient,and anaylys data claims that
   So i´ve tested all the samples i putted on blind test with my friends.Of course,analysys are made for free from a company,so there aren´t very detailed,only talks about mdma purity and posible active ingredients but not fillers .
SAMPLE 1:Pure MDMA on powder form. ....Tested near 100% pure...Effects....Very loving feel,not to much energy...relaxing but not to much.
SAMPLE 2:Pure MDMA On crystal form. from Methanol....Tested near 100% pure....Effects....the same,posibly a little more speedy but not to much.
SAMPLE 3:Pure MDMA on crystal form from Water.....Tested near 100% pure....Effects...the same as from methanol...but seems weaker about all....some friends eat at least 400 mg by head,with and "i don´t remember anything from that night" but little energy .
SAMPLE 4:PURE  MDA crystal form....Tested near 100% pure......."thats the good stuff man friends claimed"....same loving,but lots energy,crazy dancing.lights enhanced,talkaltive....Proper mda effects
SAMPLE 5:STREET MDMA...purple-brown crystalls...lab tested 80% mdma without active cutting.Filler not known,....friends and i related same effects as PURE MDA:....lots energy,love,talk,...and doses were VERY LOW....with not more than 150 mg ,we felt effects comparable to 300-400mg pure mdma...but same as usual doses like 100-150 of MDA,but comedown equal to mdma...not much problems to sleep(we have problems sometimes with mda).
SAMPLE 6:STREET MDMA...clear brown crystalls...lab tested 85% mdma...no active ingredient as cutting...filler unknow....same effects as sample 5.More noticiable the LOW DOSES to get stronger effects and way more speedy than pure mdma.

    So the results,claims that street mdma,on Europe,its A LOT similar to pure MDA effects,..about doses,effects,...but the problem it´s LAB TESTING allways find only MDMA on this samples,with fillers,but no any active cutting.
  So.....whats the problem with that?
  Posibly, a good complete analysys of the street samples can give more light about this questions,...posibly too that analysys don´t offer info about type of salt(Hcl,citrate,acetate)....but I CAN SAY SURE THERE IS SOMETHING THAT MAKE GOOD STREET MDMA WAY MORE POTENT AND BETTER THAN PURE MDMA....i Know sounds stupid..because mdma it´s mdma...but blind test with 4 guys describes what are saying.....
   Any idea?
 

Dr. Tox

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 12:11:43 AM »
Uhhhh..... maybe you just like meth?  :P
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

jon

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 05:12:37 AM »
mix them up it gets better when you combine the two.

street mdma has meth in it.
that's one of the reasons i get a lot if ccompliants so if your mixing it up for the kids throw some speed on it.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 05:14:24 AM by jon »

RoidRage

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2011, 05:38:51 AM »
Methamphetamine would show up in qualitative analysis though :-\.  If the products are almost pure, the only difference is because each "rolling session" is different. I never get exactly the same effects from the same batch, especially if I don't take big breaks between use. Chemically, only thing that could cause that is that some stuff is racemic MDxx and other is enantiomerically pure but this is so highly improbable that it's not worth discussing ;)

Dr. Tox

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2011, 06:22:21 AM »
Yeaaaahhhhhbut.... it sure sounds like speed in the mix.....

Really. Really, really.....
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

DopeBee

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2011, 07:55:15 AM »
Never tried street mdma, but my opinion on the difference between molly and mandy is this:
MDMA produces more euphoria and less stimulant effects
MDA produces less euphoria and more stimulant effects

jon

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2011, 08:38:27 AM »
yeah but combine the two and it gets real interesting

sassa

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2011, 05:38:23 PM »
If the stuff was cutted with: amphetamine,methamphetamine,ephedrine,methylphenidate,caffeine...open this thread will become a waste of time.
   í´m talking about european cromatography lab tested molly,street mdma,crystal mdma,....that PRESENT NO ACTIVE INGREDIENT in the mix but mdma+ inactive filller,normally sugars.All active cutting on the crystal will be figure on the analisys data like on samples i´ve seen with little caffeine,and very inusual amphetamine sulphate(1-2 samples from 100 aprox).
  I´m not looking for  effects that of course i can get by mdma/mda combos,mdma/amphetamine combos,....It´s  related to how 2 crystalls that seems to have a very similar composition about mdma can offer so diferrent effects,allways in relation to energy and speedy quality,on 4 diferrent cosumers.
  Of course i know setting and mood when used it´s crucial,but 4 guys experimented the same on different days.
  I was thinking too on different enantiomers ratios...(and have read a lot about that)making mixes with more "s" enantyomer,making it  more speeder.But seems that´s almost imposible from a underground comercial point of view.
  I was thinking too 8and have read too) about diferent synth methods resulting in  different enantyomers ratios.Seems all ucommon synth makes 50/5O r/s mixes.
  Finally,i want to say too that 2 of the guys involved on the blind test have very little experience with mdma,only 4-5 times in life,and that guys experiemeted the same as more usual mdma users like me an another friend of mine.They clearly say they felt all pure mdma samples weaker in comparison to street crystal mdma,but most important, very similar to pure mda.
Last hypothesis to think will be diferent kind of salts(analysys don´t afford info about that) ,not too much usual  active ingredients that are active on very low amounts,and don´t regret totally the enantiomer ratios.
 
   
   

RoidRage

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 07:00:12 PM »
Good point, differents salts is a valid theory considering they release the amine from the salt before injecting it in the GC/MS, I forgot to mention it!.

beanhead

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 07:30:15 PM »
WHERE IS THAT TARTRATE

Dr. Tox

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2011, 07:33:18 PM »
Different salts shouldn't make any difference whatsoever, qualitatively, since when they hit your stomach they simply dissociate, albeit at different rates perhaps, but the end result is the same: MDMA + ?

We have a first person subjective analysis vs a sketchy, data lacking, second hand tale of GC/MS that was admittedly low budget and skimpy on details....
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 07:35:04 PM by Dr. Tox »
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

RoidRage

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2011, 07:40:46 PM »
MDMA HCl is really different from MDMA Citrate, have a lot around, there are some interesting threads about it!

Dr. Tox

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2011, 07:49:24 PM »
Whaaaaaa? What's the logic then? Several chem professors on another site promise me up & down that the salt form of an amine should make zero difference...

I don'geddit. Any ideas?

/Goes looking....

http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,2069.msg21895.html#msg21895

So far, what I'm seeing is simply a different rate of dissociation and metabolism. Not any significant change in pharmacological action, whatsoever.

It makes sense that it's not as "rushy" etc as the HCl since HCl is the final form when it hits your stomach and is therefore immediately available.

Personally, I favor ~100mg + 50mg ketamine IV. My room always seems to turn pink before the ceiling blows away and the gears of the universe are seen to be driven by the booming voice of God.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 07:58:24 PM by Dr. Tox »
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

beanhead

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2011, 07:59:34 PM »
I was just referring to a PM I sent him, I was hoping he could make the claim true of tartrates being double the potency due to better body absorption but if others claim the salt doesn't matter

...

Hmm!

Dr. Tox

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2011, 08:04:29 PM »
http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php?topic=31275.msg325786#msg325786

Thanks to all for your replies! 8-)  As for why various different salts are prepared for pharmaceuticals, it may have to do with the physical property of the salt.  One salt may be better than another for formulation into tablets, for example, that have a long shelf life.   Some salts are highly hygroscopic, so they would not be stable in the presence of humidity.  It also may be that one particular salt is more easily purified or crystallized than another.  As for pharmacokinetics, the form of salt is selected depending on whether you want fast or slow release.  For really slow release, you can use insoluble anions, like polystyrene sulfonate.  However, once a salt is dissolved, there is no longer an association between the anion and cation, beyond what is needed for electrical neutrality.  They are totally independent ionic molecules, surrounded by water, and they have no memory of what they were associated with in the solid state.  So, if you have, e.g, 0.000001 moles of sulfate ions coming from a drug, and 0.01 moles of chloride ions in the stomach, statistically the drug no longer "sees" any sulfate ions in its proximity.  Finally, some drugs can be absorbed in the stomach, but it would be acidic drugs, like ibuprofen, that are neutral in acidic solution, not anything with a basic nitrogen!

Soooo.....yeah. Right?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 08:06:02 PM by Dr. Tox »
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

RoidRage

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2011, 08:06:19 PM »
Dr. Tox: Ok, I don't have much to back it up, but here is Sedit's take on it:

Its metabolised in a different area of the body then the HCl is. It makes its way deaper into the digestive system before it is neutralized and released. This is the reasoning behind why the Citrate is suppose to be more potant.


Oerlikon you say you tried equal amounts of the citrate/HCl per freebase weight correct, Are you sure you calculated that more then one MDA molecule is attached to the Citric acid.


Interesting read if you have some time:http://127.0.0.1/talk/index.php/topic,2089.msg21926.html#msg21926


I unfortunably can't provide any scientific reference for those claims, but I can tell you something. It definitly seems like a cross between MDMA HCl and MDA HCl. I never get hallucinations from ANY dose of MDMA HCl, but I get visuals training from dosing the Citrate salt  ;). That sure isn't placebo :P

Dr. Tox

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2011, 08:10:26 PM »
Yeahbut...

There is so much misinformation in this thread that I don't know where to start.  I will start off with oral absorption of drugs.  First of all, the pH of the stomach is 2, which means it is 0.01 M HCl.  So, no matter what salt of an amine drug ends up in the stomach, it is immediately exchanged with chloride, which is orders of magnitude higher in concentration than any other anion.  Anions of weak acids like acetate or citrate are converted to the free acids at that pH, and hence can no longer be associated with the amine.  Second, absorption of drugs takes place in the small intestine, not the stomach, which is primarily for digestion.  The pH of the small intestine is about 8, which means amine-containing drugs have a significant equilibrium between the cation and the free base.  There is no specific uptake system for these drugs, so the neutral free base diffuses throught the epithelial cells and reaches the bloodstream.  The free base then re-equilibrates with the pH 7.4 serum, and it then picks up the most abundant anion, chloride, ca. 0.1 M.  There is no transport system for amines to get across the blood-brain barrier, so again it is the free base that diffuses through the epithelial cells of the BBB and re-equilbrates on the brain side, again with chloride as the most abundant cation.  There is no difference in the salts by the time the drug gets to the BBB, since the anion was lost in the stomach.  So, differences in the effects of different amine salt forms for oral administration depend primarily on the differences in equivalent weight and secondarily on the aqueous solubility of the particular salt.  If the drug is dissolved before ingestion, the second factor is irrelevant, but if the drug is swallowed as a solid, this could increase the time required for absorption if solubility is low.  Now for other ROAs, like insufflation or sublingual administration, there may be more significant differences between salt forms.  For example, acetates are more likely than hydrochlorides to be absorbed sublingually since the equilibrium constant between the ion pair and the free acid-free base form in solution more strongly favors the free base, which can diffuse through the mucosal cells to the bloodstream, for the acetate than hydrochloride.  Got it? :-D  There will be an exam tomorrow.  (Sorry, can't help it, I teach medicinal chemistry.)
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.

RoidRage

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2011, 08:17:55 PM »
Thanks, it was an interesting read. Honestly, I don't know what to add. While I like learning about it, I'm not much of a pharmacology guy myself. No idea what can explains the difference in effects then (hallucinations, as I said, are definitly not placebo). Hope others will reply  :P.

sassa

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 07:16:31 PM »
I feel exactly as Roidrage...not much to say ;) ;).
   That read it´s very  usefull...but  what claims fights with personal experiences of people from this forum with citrate, for example.Like never  proved other salt than HCL, can´t give much info about that...
   About tartrate,it will be great to taste it, if someone can give a method to convert the hcl salt to the tartrate,because i´m a little confused about solubility of tartrate salts and tartaric acid on diferent solvents,so i can´t figure out how to make it,and how to get ride off of tartaric acid excess.But yeah,some sites claims double potency tartrate salt vs. hcl salt....????
  I was thinking on all posible variables that can explain the diferent effects,including not distilled freebase,if impurities asociated to the freebase,(as can see on that article it´s the final form  the salt arrives to  blood and brain receptors) can be related to diferrent effects.... :P.
 But i can say almost sure definitly it´s  something on that good street crystal mdma that makes the session way better than pure mdma.I´m talkig about my region....don´t know if people from USA,for example,have noticed that diference.
 And can imagine underground chemists  still have their secrets  and don´t wanna let it to others....
   Chemistry paranoia?......!yes! :D :D :D
 
 
 

Dr. Tox

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Re: street mdma vs. pure mdma vs. pure mda
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 10:38:40 PM »
There is no difference in "potency" of however much MDMA, despite the salt form. It dissociates, period.

Now, if you mean "subjective effects over a given period of time" based on the salt form, then ok, but that's just a means of time release. And personally, I get plenty of visuals from HCL form, but then again, I use it IV, not oral.

Do you know how to freebase your substrate? Do you know how to salt a freebase amine? Do you have a pH meter or test strips?

In fact, why don't you start from the ground up and start experimenting with the freebase first for comparison.  :P

Can you actually get the test results in hand? That's the part that sounds sketchiest in this whole scheme. IMO, either there's an additive, or there's some isomeric aberration between samples.

From Shulgin:
Quote
Early in my studies of MDMA, I wanted to determine what the effects were for each of the two optical isomers of the compound. This question was of particular interest to me becuase MDMA was, in a structural sense, a hybrid of two classes of compounds. It had an amphetamine skeleton, as do amphetamine and methamphetamine. With both of these two stimulants, it is the dextro-isomer (the + isomer, the "S" isomer) that is the more potent compound. However, in a series of early studies with the psychedelic amphetamine compounds, those with 3,4- disubstitution such as MDA and TMA-2, the increased potency always leaned towards the - isomers, those with the "R" configuration. I felt that to assay the "S" and "R" isomers of MDMA might help me towards answering a question: Was this compound basically a stimulant drug with some minor leanings towards a psychedelic (the "S" isomer is the more effective one) or is it a psychedelic drug with minor leanings towards a stimulant (the "R" isomer would be the more effective one).

I received research samples of each of the two isomers from my NIMH contacts, and set up a pretty much blind study. One of the results was clear and not unexpected. The "S" isomer was clearly the more potent one -- the effective dose was between 60 and 120 milligrams, whereas the "R" isomer was barely threshold at 160 milligrams. This was about a 2:1 weight ratio favoring the "S" or "stimulant" isomer as defining the action. What was unexpected was that neither isomer gave the magic of the racemic MDMA. It was almost as if both the separate pharmacological components needed to be present to experience the unusual properties of this drug.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 10:56:39 PM by Dr. Tox »
Alimentary, dear Watson; I had a gut feeling.