Author Topic: Short Questions Thread  (Read 10820 times)

poorfish

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #680 on: November 29, 2010, 02:03:52 AM »
Seemed like the best place for this question...

Reading tikhal#26 for the 10000th time (just fer shits n grins), one would like to know how scalable the procedure for processing ET into d-LA might be?  NOT looking for too much explanation, maybe just "very/not very".

Could it be done, for example, @ 1/5 scale? (2gET -> ~600mg d-LA? or would that be dumb? :-\) Maybe this is a stupid question, but the chemistry involved with these compounds can be weird sometimes, and I'm very tired atm.


Thaaaaaaaaanks.

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Vespula germanica

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #681 on: November 30, 2010, 09:31:01 AM »
There are no obvious reasons to me that speak against such a scale-down. Of course (...rhetorical...) the yield will probably be a bit lower. Expect that all times from the TIHKAL#26-protocol could get shorter.
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java

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #682 on: December 01, 2010, 04:49:24 PM »
I read someplace that the AlHg reductive amination causes recimization.....ofcourse working to the desired amine via the golden ketone the product will always be recemic......so no one cares or is concerned, however it's an important point i would like to hear some explanation on how that occurs....there is a pearl at the end of that tunnel......java
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akcom

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #683 on: December 01, 2010, 05:03:26 PM »
You're going from an achiral compound (ketone) to a chiral one (amine), you should (theoretically) end up with a 50/50 mix of R/S.  The racemization occurs when the carbonyl carbon is attached by MeNH2 and forms a tetrahedral intermediate.

Sedit

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #684 on: December 01, 2010, 07:32:16 PM »
Really there going to an achiral(ketone) compound to a prochiral compond(imine). Imines can be forced into a specific chirality using various directing groups.

Im no expert on it but given that imines are basic perhaps the addition of racemic Tataric acid would be enough to direct the plane in the given direction.




achiral:(adjective) Referring to a molecule or material which is superimposable on its mirror image, ie does not display 'handedness'. See Chiral.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 03:52:32 AM by Sedit »
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Happyman

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #685 on: December 02, 2010, 11:54:57 PM »
So here is a Friedel-Crafts Alkylation that doesn't deal with halogens. Think this could be applied to benzene and propylene glycol to yield 1-phenylpropan-2-ol? Is there any reason why it wouldn't work?

Also if this were to be applied to toluene and propylene glycol would static hindrance keep the methyl group on the opposite side of the ring and yield 1-(4-methylphenyl)propan-2-ol?

Oops, forgot the link.
http://www.franklincollege.edu/pwp/lmonroe/Organic%20Chem/Friedel-Crafts.pdf

akcom

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #686 on: December 03, 2010, 01:27:09 AM »
Definitely won't work.  You'll notice in their lab they used a tertiary alcohol.  To ionize anything less would not be feasible with something like H2SO4, at least not for your purposes.  Even if you could ionize propylene glycol, it would ionize at the secondary alcohol, not the primary.  Even if THAT worked you'd get multiple substitutions, probably in the ortho and para positions.

Bluebottle

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #687 on: December 03, 2010, 06:23:51 PM »
Would crude magnesium boride (from B2O3 + Mg) by forming BH3 in situ do the trick for an amide reduction or would the gunk interfere? Or with the proper choice of solvent or additives? Maybe isopropanol with acid gradually added.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 06:33:33 PM by Bluebottle »
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Evilblaze

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #688 on: December 10, 2010, 11:32:32 PM »
There would be a question about 4-methylaminorex analouges.



Is there any information about the compound above, where X is: F, Cl, Br, CH3, C2H5 or ect.?

Dosage, effects, risks and toxicity would be best to know. Thanks!

atara

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #689 on: December 11, 2010, 10:55:45 PM »
The imine function in 4-MAR is stabilized by conjugation as an amidine. Here, that doesn't happen, so you'll get hydrolysis to the ketone, or you'll get rearrangement to 4-MAR itself.

zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #690 on: December 13, 2010, 10:24:18 AM »
or elimination to oxazole
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RoidRage

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #691 on: December 26, 2010, 12:22:00 PM »
Anybody know MDP2P solubility in toluene? Since If switched to toluene instead of DCM for post-wacker extraction, I've been told to double the amount used per extraction. I know it's not optimised since I've been using less and less each time I run the reaction and still get the same amount ketone at the end. I just don't run the reaction often so I don't know what is the actual required amount to exract. Distilling it afterward is a real pain in the ass so I'd rather keep solvent volume to a minimum. I've searched around online and have found nothing.

By the way, why the hell isn't that damn ketone in the merck. Was happy to put my brand new merck index to use, and I just can't find MDP2P. I'm searching for 3,4-methylenedioxyphenylpropan-2-one, 3,4-methylenedioxyphenylacetone, piperonyl methyl ketone, piperonyl acetone and MDP2P. Checked safrole/MDMA/MDA/isosafrole and piperonal entry and it's not mentioned anywhere. CAS lookup and formula index doesn't list it either. What the hell? I'm surely missing something here...

Thanks in advance

Oerlikon

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #692 on: December 26, 2010, 05:50:22 PM »
I used DCM,toluene and xylene for post wacker extraction and found
that the best is xylene,than toluene and last one DCM.
Use same ammount of toluen as you use DCM.

Xylene is best since all phases go separate,maybe little of water and DMF is
mixed with xylene,most important,you get super clean MDP2P not mixed with safrole.

When DCM or toluene was used,they caried away MDP2P along with other phases in much lower
temperatures than normal and (iso)safrole allways comes along MDP2P.
You can apply much higher vacuum and heat much faster to get purest MDP2P
than with other two.

When using toluen or DMC result was <60% pure MDP2P,when using xylene purity is >98%
Give it a shot and tell me how it went!
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RoidRage

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #693 on: December 26, 2010, 06:33:26 PM »
Thanks, Good to know I can use same amount. Having to disassemble the setup many times to refill the RBF with raw ketone (I didn't have big enough flask to do it all at once last time...I've found out that if you fill the flask over 40-45%, you lose an awful amount of time since toluene bumps like there's no tomorrow...Anyway, I've bought bigger flasks now ;D) is really time-consuming. On top of that vacuum is a must because of high boiling point. After 8 hours, I'm starting to hate hearing the damn pump.

I don't know where to get xylene since I've never looked for it but I suppose I could get it at the same place I get my toluene. Are you sure it makes a big difference ? I don't see how it could. I'm not having any problems with toluene as far as ketone purity/emulsions are concerned. I have no ideas why, but I never had anything else than ketone coming over  ??? ... Density is always over 1.2g/ml...If safrole/isosafrole was to come over, I suppose I would see it considering boiling points differences and the fact that I use a fractionning column to distill it (hmmm just verified and isosafrole boils at the same temp as the ketone...whatever).

I use Methanol though, not DMF...still don't undestand how Xylene can be so superior to toluene though ???

Oh yeah, damn DCM fucking sucks...Insane pressure buildup in separatory funnels, makes recently greased stopcock leaks, awful emulsions and finally, toxic like hell if you've got no fume hood. Damn I hate it lol...Who cares it's no flammable anyway? I don't understand where it's an advantage as a solvent...I don't go around in the lab smoking cigarettes over my non-sealed toluene bottle while using a Bunsen burner to distill nitromethane ;D

Oerlikon

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #694 on: December 26, 2010, 08:20:06 PM »
Throw away fractionning column,it only makes distillation significantly longer along with ketone decomposition!
Since Cleisen adapter behaves like small column I substituted it with plain 2 way adapter with thermometer hole.
Yields are better and there is less tar!

What is reason why xylene works better? I have no idea,but few theories.
Most of the garbage (water,MeOH or DMF) goes before Xylene due the b.p. difference and when it starts to come it tends to make aezotrope with that garbage only at the beginning and then you get clear xylene that is transparent and ready to use again.
After xylene stops to come out,few drops of mild yellow (iso)safrole come along and than good green stuff comes alone with constant temp! Using anything else than xylene results with terrible aezotrope and emulsion if it is heated "fast" (under 5-6-8h)
Not mentioning terrible temp. oscillations at constant pressure while ketone and (iso)safrole come along having the same color
that changes from ketone green to (iso)safrole yellowish in few hours.
Most important,with xylene you are done within 4h with all the prep.

If you live in USA you can find it at hardware shop,it is branded as "Xylene" with big letters! ;D
Most of the paint thinners like "Hempel" in Europe are xylene with some to none similar compounds (I think styrene)
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RoidRage

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #695 on: December 26, 2010, 10:26:17 PM »
While we talks about it, it remind me how much I hate that part of the synthesis. Seriously it's awful. I think I was traumatized when I started doing this and needed extremely high oil bath temperature to distill the ketone. The pump was a piece of shit pulling something like 25-25.5'' Hg (I only bought it since the guy who sold it to me told me it was pulling 30'' ::)).... Just to give you an idea, safrole was coming over at 176, and the ketone at 220 or 230, I don't remember exactly. There is always a discrepancy between needed oil bath temperature and distillation temp. . The difference between the 2 temps get worse with increasing boiling point. Let's jusy say that oil bath temperature was about 275-300 when it cames over, and I was paranoiac since vegetables oils supposely have a temp. at which they auto-ignites, but I was never able to find the exact number (Most sites were confused about flask/smoke/fire point) :-\ I don't understand why BRIGHT STAR said the flask's content polymerize if temp get over 220. Total Bullshit. When you get it to finally comes over with overexaggerated insulation, cursing and patience, it comes over. I destroyed half the yield a few times with those extremely high temp though, since it will never fucking comes over if the insulation isn't perfect. Anyways ;D..... Even with a good pump, I'm still always anxious when I reach this step since there is always something happening, even if it's not much.....  Sorry, I'M rambling a bit there ;)


When you says ''you are done within 4h will all the prep'', you means extracting/washing/distilling a ''standard'' (178g safrole/150g benzo) Wacker? If so, W-O-W ;D Might as well go get some xylene right now :D I'm in Canada and I've honestly never seen toluene/xylene over-the-counter, but I live in a shithole. My specialized paint products shop probably carry it though. Maybe that way they will stop being suspicious about bomb-making (Looks like being young will always be a handicap...The guy at the shop asked me if it was to make TNT ::) ) ::)... It's funny how which chemicals are OTC differs from country to country...There is nothing in mainstream store around except methanol/acetone/NaOH, but as long as you knows where to look, you will find what you needs...Can't wait to stumble across a shop carrying nitroethane  ;D

Oerlikon

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #696 on: December 26, 2010, 10:48:34 PM »
It's true, OTC chemicals vary greatly form country to country.
For example here it is next to imposible to find MeOH.
I can only dream of nitroethane! Nitromethane is bitch to find too!

I am done with distilation part only in 4-5h with xylene.

Throw away that lousy pump and get some water aspirator.
At full blast safrole comes out around 120°C and ketone around 160°C.
heating ketone or halogensafrole ower 200°C is lousy method to
purify it. I really HATE this step so I am considering other methods now
that don't include vacuum distilation.

Extracting with DCM,using super fine filter,letting it to evaporate,and putting what was left
in desicator might do the trick if you are using MeOH.
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RoidRage

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #697 on: December 26, 2010, 11:42:13 PM »
You misread, I bought another pump, quite strong too (At least for the kind of work we do...Pulls something likes 29''hg)... A bit too noisy for my situation though. It also can't runs for more than 1.5-2 hours...After that it's like an internal fuse stops everything and I need to let the damn pump cools for 30min ::) Nothing pissing me off more than having that piece of shit suddendly stops when the ketone is coming over nicely....Is a water aspirator that strong? If so, I will seriously looks into buying one. I can't work too late at night with that damn pump...I suppose water pressure variation isn't that bad anyways...Don't worry, I don't heat ketone that high anymore ;) Let's just say that back when I started, there was nothing that was going to stop me from getting the final amine...You should have seen my ketone distillation back then ;) :D... Always had the fire extinguisher near me...Was probably borderline dangerous but I sure wasn't endangering anybody else :D

As for nitroethane, I was joking, I have no idea where to get it. I just remember reading somewhere that americans where crossing the border to buy it in Canada so I figured out there is something going on here.  ;) As for nitromethane, only times I needed it, I got it from RC fuel, but somebody told me you can buy it at a shop where they fix dirtbikes/atv/etc. ..... Since you mentions it's almost impossible for you to get methanol, I suppose you're in Europe. While I have the chance to ask lol, what the hell is the deal with that? How comes it's so unavailable? I can walk into any hardware store around and buy it in 4 liters bottles for 10$ ;D No idea where I can get denatured Ethanol though....Never checked though

As for others methods for getting around distillation, I've never heard about anything. Would be too good to be true. Would be nice if the bisulfite adduct could purity it enough...The wacker oxidation is a really messy reaction, especially when using p-benzo as the oxidant (Never tried any variation though)...Anyway, I've used impure ketone in the past, and yields are fucking shitty...It's already enough Work, might as well do it correctly

I'm going to have to do this step in the next fews days, and this discussion is not making me looking forward to doing it...Can't wait to get more MDA though ;D

Oh and...fuck DCM altogether...That's not a solvent to use without a fume hood. Only chemical that made me ill was DCM. Anyway, I hate when my damn separatory funnel stopcock leak and I don't want my plug to start flying across the room If I lose attention for a second...This reming me this damn solvent screwed up my lab session at school in instrumental chemistry  ::)>:(  Oh, and even worse, even If I wanted to use DCM, I would need to distill it from the shitty gooey paint stripper...No thanks ;D This solvent has absolutly ZERO advantages for me.


Oerlikon

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #698 on: December 27, 2010, 04:03:45 AM »
Newer noticed how DCM is more toxic than toluen or any other solvent,
it makes you sick? How?!

MeOH is hard to get since some poeple drink anything that has "alcohol"
stamped on it. So it is basicaly idiot-proofing.

What method you use to get MDA!?
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RoidRage

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #699 on: December 27, 2010, 12:48:16 PM »
I didn't know it either until actually feeling some ill effects (Let's be honest, nobody ready dichloromethane's MSDS with careful attention). I was one time working in a confined area with limited ventilation (Extremely stupid, I know, I was in a transition between two ''labs'' emplacement).  I remember back then that when I understood that I was intoxicated by DCM, I've searched for informations, and discovered that's dichloromethane is actually metabolized to carbon monoxide, which can ultimatly results in delayed carbon monoxide poisoning. As I already said, it's the first and only chemical that made me sick so far. No problems with toluene at all. I think it smells nice anyway ;D ... I've included a paper about poisoning :D


As for MDA preparation, I form MDP2P Oxime with hydroxylamine, then reduce it with an acidic Al/Hg. Works wonder ;D