Author Topic: Short Questions Thread  (Read 10822 times)

Vesp

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Short Questions Thread
« on: January 01, 2009, 03:13:49 AM »
I've seen a few of these on other forums and they seem really useful. So, I'm putting one up.
The Short Questions Thread allows you to ask questions and get an answer back relatively fast.  We still want you to UTFSE, but if you can't find a simple answer, come here!
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 04:49:42 AM by Phyto »
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Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread -- Electrolysis of NH4NO3 to Nitric acid?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 11:52:18 PM »
I recently read that the electrolysis of a solution of water and ammonia will produce nitrogen, and hydrogen.

Link: http://webche.ent.ohiou.edu/eerl/ammoniaelectrolysis/index.html

My question is, if you performed electrolysis of on ammonium nitrate, would it still produce nitrogen? If so, I find it likely that it may produce nitric acid, though I think that may get reduced. Any idea?
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2009, 07:53:01 AM »
i think, the answer in "no" bacause NH4+ anions will tend to repulse from anode, unlike NH3 that is neutral. The easiest way is to try, with pH indicator
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Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2009, 06:36:34 PM »
Oh that makes sense, all right well that is to bad. I might try it later on though or something similiar but I don't have a very good power supply. The battery charger i use now over heats, or something like that.
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2009, 07:27:32 AM »
don't forget to use inert anode(Pt, PbO2, graphite)
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Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2009, 06:22:11 PM »
Oh yeah of course!
I bought some giant graphite rods for welding a while back and intended to use them for making chlorates and perchlorates, but I never got around to it. I would use those for the oxidation thingy. I have more then I'll ever need.
I'm to to sure how they'll hold up though, does anyone have experience with them? I've heard they work pretty good.
If you guys are at all interested in a few I could send you some for a few bucks, or for a trade of something. This is what the look like, I could get the dimensions later if you are interested.
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Sedit

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2009, 07:37:04 PM »
Oh that makes sense, all right well that is to bad. I might try it later on though or something similiar but I don't have a very good power supply. The battery charger i use now over heats, or something like that.

Put something like a fan or an electric motor (if it can handle the power) or something in the circuit with it because if not your running a dead short.

Where did you get the rods from Iv looked all over and nothing. I use to get them from farm and tractor when I was little but they went out of biz.
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Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 08:03:31 PM »
Ah thanks for the advice! What sort of thing would work well for that? a lightbulb perhaps? That seems the easiest for me.

I got them from a store in some city a few miles away from where I live. I actually think it was a pretty dumb decision for me to buy them as I have used them very little and they were pretty expensive.
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Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2009, 03:22:05 AM »
I know ketones on alphitic hydrocarbons can be reduced to hydrogen easily, but can this also be done with ketones on aromatic hydrocarbons? This is something I have wondered for a while, but I haven't found any reference saying it can't work. I wouldn't mind being able to reduce the easily produced benzoquinone to benzene with some amalgamated aluminum or something like that.
Pretty sure I am living in la-la land if it is that easy to indirectly make benzene from Tylenol.

Well, assuming it isn't possible since chemistry sucks like that, why isn't it?
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 02:51:19 PM »
I know there are some ways to remove phenolic OH - distillation with Zn powder, HI under heat and pressure. Al amalgam, may also work but not in mild conditions (this should be known otherwise).  But in compounds like phloroglucinol which are existing in a triketo-form partually, OH groups should be reduced much easier because it is partually a ketone indeed. Maybe even up to cyclohexane, since Zn/Hg is not known to form alcohol intermediates while reduction of ketones, but hardly to benzene. If paracetamol/hydroquinone can form a ketone tautomer, then they should be reductable. Otherwise, only in severe conditions. As for benzoquinone i dont have any idea what would happen
If you want benzene form phenols, better to reduce phenols with hydrogen to cyclohexanes , remove all functionalities like NH2, OH and dehydrogenate to benzene
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 03:09:27 PM by zz-zhuchila »
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Sedit

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 09:21:21 PM »
Ah thanks for the advice! What sort of thing would work well for that? a lightbulb perhaps? That seems the easiest for me.

I got them from a store in some city a few miles away from where I live. I actually think it was a pretty dumb decision for me to buy them as I have used them very little and they were pretty expensive.


I would be using the shit out of them, I just went thru my last carbon rob last night with the persulfate cell. The patant says unreactive but the carbon rod got eaten like it was being attacked by termites.

Does anyone else have any simple suggestions on an anode for a persulfate cell? I would think perchlorate anodes would suffice but I think I could get away with something easyer


[edit]


Fuck!!! Now I really need a new anode!!! I just spilled the persulfate solution all over my newly tiled bench Fuck! (and I mean newly as in a few hours ago grout just drying new, got to watch the grout get washed away with a nice fizzling sound)!!!   Im pissed because that is going to set me back quite a fucking bit considering I have no more Ammonia sulfate. DAMNIT!!!!!

Anyone know of a place I can just go pick up some ammonia persulfate and say fuck the cell? Radio shack? I know they got ferric chloride but i didnt know if there stocking persulfate over the counter yet.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 09:33:56 PM by sedit »
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Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 09:47:16 PM »
Oh all right thank you. I guess this really isn't a great method to go about it, it was mostly a curiosity but would make it a lot easier for me to get benzene.
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Sedit

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 10:13:03 PM »
If you need benzene vesp try destructive distillation of benzoic acid with NaOH. People over at SM said that is a great way because of its ease and benzoic acid is everyware. Iv seen mouthwash whos main componate other then Alcohol was benzoic acid. One day Im going to dry it down and see how much benzene you can get from one bottle of that shit.
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Enkidu

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 10:24:15 PM »
I know there are some ways to remove phenolic OH - distillation with Zn powder, HI under heat and pressure. Al amalgam, may also work but not in mild conditions (this should be known otherwise).

That's not happening...

Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2009, 08:28:44 PM »
Yeah, In one of the chemistry books I bought, when I opened it there was a small paper that fell out that had some interesting method of removing the OH group on aromatics, I wonder where it went? It didn't seem all that hard, but just time consuming, though this has been a while ago and I could have a false memory. I'll have to look for the thing.
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2009, 08:39:00 AM »
When i was a pyro-insane person, i found that "safrole" is present in some essential oils, and had same kind of thoughts: "no sources for OTC aromatic compounds.  maybe i can nitrate that safrole and the product i will mix with ammonium nitrate to get ammonite?"
That is regarding to reduction of phenols to benzenes.
Now, if i get a pure safrole even in gram-quantities i know for what it is used  :)
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 08:08:57 PM »
2 Enkidu: that is happening, but having low yields (just inquired). As for amalgam i don't know, it was just suppose
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Enkidu

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 10:13:49 PM »
Do you have a reference for this? I say it probably won't work. Click me. It'll also probably destroy any other functional groups, or even reduce the benzene to a saturated compound.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:17:22 PM by Enkidu »

Vesp

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 11:44:36 PM »
Phenol and Zinc seems like a great way to make benzene if it works at a decent tempurature. It is easy to get zinc, and phenol could probably be produced on spot by heating salicylic acid or perhaps its sodium salt. Refluxing phenol and zinc probably wouldn't do it though, seems like it would need much higher temperatures. Seems interesting at least.
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zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2009, 07:12:55 AM »
If links of that kind realiability would satisfy you,
task for students: 

http://www.tutorvista.com/content/chemistry/chemistry-iii/hydrocarbons/benzene-preparation.php

http://www.most.gov.mm/techuni/media/ECh2011_Tex.pdf
(b) Write equations for the following:
i. Phenol reacts with NaOH
ii. Phenol reacts with bromine
iii. Phenol distilled with zinc dust
iv. Phenol heated with NH3 and ZnCl2

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4523/benzene.jpg     (taken from  www.ilc.edu.hk/SubjectWeb/ChemWeb/Ppt/Benzene%20and%20substitution%20reactions.ppt


If you want an original refference, i think this can help  (taken form http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?rxntypeid=116&prep=CV6P0150)
Quote
Other procedures include zinc-dust distillation, not generally useful except for exhaustive degradation of phenols to hydrocarbons, and various sodium and liquid ammonia cleavages of phenol ethers.[3,4,5,6,7] These latter reactions lack generality and are often unpredictable. They require conditions too harsh for certain aromatic substituents, and the yields are frequently low.

[3] W. H. Pirkle and J. L. Zabriskie, J. Org. Chem., 29, 3124 (1964) and references cited therein.
[4]  Y. K. Sawa, N. Tsuji, and S. Maeda, Tetrahedron, 15, 144, 154 (1961); Y. K. Sawa, N. Tsuji, K. Okabe, and T. Miyamoto, Tetrahedron, 21, 1121 (1965);  Y. K. Sawa and J. Irisawa, Tetrahedron, 21, 1129 (1965); Y. K. Sawa, M. Horiuchi, and K. Tanaka, Tetrahedron, 21, 1133 (1965).
[5] P. A. Sartoretto and F. J. Sowa, J. Am. Chem. Soc., 59, 603 (1937); A. L. Kranzfelder, J. J. Verbanc, and F. J. Sowa, J. Am. Chem. Soc., 59, 1488 (1937); F. C. Weber and F. J. Sowa, J. Am. Chem. Soc., 60, 94 (1938).
[6] M. Tomita, H. Furukawa, S.-T. Lu, and S. M. Kupchan, Tetrahedron Lett., 4309 (1965).
[7] E. J. Strojny, J. Org. Chem., 31, 1662 (1966).

I suppose, link [3] is the original refference for reduction of phenol with Zn
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 07:17:31 AM by zz-zhuchila »
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