Author Topic: Short Questions Thread  (Read 10822 times)

Douchermann

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #200 on: September 18, 2009, 05:28:43 AM »
I don't understand how you would reduce L-PAC to pseudoephedrine?

Naf1

  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #201 on: September 18, 2009, 06:02:03 AM »
Reductive amination.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7176332.html


Abstract

Clandestine synthesis of methamphetamine in Australia has predominantly started from pseudoephedrine extracted from over the counter cold and flu medications. However, recently introduced restrictions on the sale of these products have made pseudoephedrine much more difficult to obtain. As a result clandestine chemists have had to resort to other means of obtaining the necessary chemical precursors. A recent drug raid (Adelaide, January 2008) resulted in the seizure of an unusual reaction mixture that indicated a novel approach involving the fermentation of glucose by yeast in the presence of benzaldehyde to give 1-hydroxy-1-phenylpropanone, also known as l-phenylacetylcarbinol (l-PAC), a known precursor to ephedrine and pseudoephedrine and hence methamphetamine. A study was undertaken into this process with the aim of determining the characteristic reaction by-products associated with methamphetamine made in this way. The study also looked at the stereochemical selectivity of the fermentation reaction and the stereochemistry of the subsequent reaction products, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and the final methamphetamine.[/b]
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6W-4W8TJG0-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=22e0097549a20dc9837b60b9167f2871

Make no mistake about it, large scale cooks in Australia have never used cold pills!!(well there were a couple but they are long gone, all the big cooks use chemicals diverted to them from either overseas or the corrupt authorities, labgrade ephedrine etc). The term clandestine chemist in that sense, is talking about us! And the people at WD still trying to scrounge small amounts of cold pills. It shows you that they are not trying to analyze the drugs in circulation but they are targeting you and me, experimenting with small scale synths (not really harming anyone, but apparently should be paying them for our drugs made by approved chemists were the corrupt people take the profit). Also, they seem to ban new chems after finding people doing the reaction, like above Fester put that out years ago, it was not until people start getting caught doing it that the authorities do something about it. And it becomes popular and the precursors for it become watched.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 06:32:06 AM by Naf1 »

Douchermann

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #202 on: September 18, 2009, 06:15:52 PM »
Thank you Naf, I'm aware that L-PAC can be turned into ephedrine, but not through a simple reduction.  My post was more on semantics and less on chemistry, because I'm a Douche like that hahahaha. 

Happyman

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #203 on: September 20, 2009, 02:11:05 AM »
Oh whew. So what I said was slightly grounded in chemistry? I'm having trouble visualizing it. But people say theys can reduce it via NaBH4 but that is me speaking from my memory which is pretty poor. I think German wrote a relating paper on Wetdreams but I can't get to Wetdreams to sight it. But before that question is answered I gots another one.
In this
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/propionic2ephedrone2ephedrine.html
Propionic acid is turned propionyl chloride via phosphorus trichloride in benzene. Swim would like to switch phosphorus trichloride for phosphorus pentachloride because phosphorus pentachloride can be produce via chloroform and red phosphorus according to this guy -
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7701&page=2#pid88930
My concern is if phosphorus trichloride can replace phosphorus pentachloride and will this affect the benzene?
Phosphorus pentachloride is used to make chlorobenzene but that is threw phenol. Benzene is also currently unobtainable to swim unless made by swim. Is there another solvent that will do? Would toluene & xylene chlorinate if I tried with those? Could something other then an aromatic ring be used?
Sorry about such a rough outline of a question.

Douchermann

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #204 on: September 20, 2009, 07:30:03 AM »
It can indeed be reduced by NaBH4, Happyman, as long as there is something like methylamine.  That nitrogen has to come from somewhere ;)

As far as phosphorus pentachloride, etc.  PCl5 should not chlorinate the benzene ring, however I do fear that it might chlorinate the toluene (producing benzyl, benzal chloride and possibly benzotrichloride if one adds stoicheomtric amounts).  You might be able to get away with hexane (coleman fuel) as I do not believe it can chlorinate alkanes, but I've been wrong before.

heisenberg

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #205 on: September 20, 2009, 11:15:02 PM »
Does anyone know the solubility of p-benzoquinone in heptane at room temp?
I spent all my money on booze and hookers, the rest I wasted - Charles Bukowski

Happyman

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #206 on: September 20, 2009, 11:46:22 PM »
Alrighty, neato, thanks. Could I get the mole to mole ratios? Also could I switch methylamine with something like hexamine? Swim is worried about water in methylamine reacting with LAH. Speaking of that denatured alcohol as a good solvent for this?

Also what do you think about the use of phosphorous acid for turning L-PAC to pseudoephedrine?
http://www.google.com/patents?id=vmQ-AAAAEBAJ&dq=4442286
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 11:53:39 PM by Happyman »

Douchermann

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #207 on: September 21, 2009, 04:12:17 AM »
Alrighty, neato, thanks. Could I get the mole to mole ratios? Also could I switch methylamine with something like hexamine? Swim is worried about water in methylamine reacting with LAH. Speaking of that denatured alcohol as a good solvent for this?

Also what do you think about the use of phosphorous acid for turning L-PAC to pseudoephedrine?
http://www.google.com/patents?id=vmQ-AAAAEBAJ&dq=4442286

Now now happyman, what's our policy on spoon feeding? hahaha.  I'll help you figure it out, but I wont tell you, for which reaction were you speaking?

Unfortunately, no, you can't sub hexamine in here.  What you can do is form anhydrous methylamine solution by bubbling it into dry methanol (drying the gas of course).  I'm pretty sure the methanol will react with the LAH... why are you using LAH again?

As for the phosphorous acid, again, nitrogen source.  Do you have phosphite salts?

Sedit

  • Global Moderator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,099
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #208 on: September 21, 2009, 04:27:18 AM »
Alrighty, neato, thanks. Could I get the mole to mole ratios?NO!!! you should know how to perform molar ratios well before attempting any chemistry experiment Also could I switch methylamine with something like hexamine Please learn the chemistry behind the reaction first please, this isn't a hard one? Swim is worried about water in methylamine reacting with LAH. Speaking of that denatured alcohol as a good solvent for this?


Swim is dead... I killed him because he owed me 40 bucks and never paid. There is no need for pointless 3d person here as it accomplishes nothing except proving that you had prior knowlage of your own guilt. No need to use the word I in place of swim either. Try to keep things focused in a way where you don't need to use any word such as I or swim or god forbid.... Your cat... please people don't insult our intelligence and ever start telling us what swims neighbors mothers Cat just synthesised. I may just have to lose all faith in humanity at that point.
[End Rant]

This is the short question threed so I see much room for tolerance but C'mon happy can ya atlest try to learn basic chemistry.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

Agent Madhatter

  • Guest
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #209 on: September 21, 2009, 04:35:30 AM »
SWIM was working on SWISWIM's project the other day and SWIM'sSwim had issues converting the salt of SWIM'sSWIM's chemical into freebase, can you go over that?



LOL

Vesp

  • Administrator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,130
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #210 on: September 21, 2009, 04:40:28 AM »
*considers changing the description of The Den of Iniquity from "Discuss any topic. The Den of Iniquity is lightly moderated." to "Discuss any topic, We moderate however we feel like it at the time"*

Oh short question: Is the short question thread to long? I am thinking that I should close this one, and start a new one?
Bitcoin address: 1FVrHdXJBr6Z9uhtiQKy4g7c7yHtGKjyLy

Happyman

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #211 on: September 21, 2009, 04:58:00 AM »
Sorry guys I had an unaccounted for oxygen and I didn't think double everything to form oxygen gas was the way it worked.
2C9H10O2+LiAlH4+2CH5N---->2C10H15NO+LiAlH4+O2
I was referring to replacing LAH with phosphorous acid sorry for not explaining that.
C9H10O2+H3PO3+CH5N---->C10H15NO+H3PO4
Methylamine HCl? Wouldn't be completely water free but I doubt it would explode in my face.
I was wondering about hexamine because apperently other amines could be used in this reaction and hexamine would be the easiest to obtain.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=83395&aid=2199


And isn't the short questions section on sciencemadness like 50 pages long?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 05:13:51 AM by Happyman »

Douchermann

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #212 on: September 21, 2009, 04:14:14 PM »
Methylamine HCl? Wouldn't be completely water free but I doubt it would explode in my face.

No no, freebase the MeNH2*HCl into MeNH2 gas.  Dry it, then bubble it into a solvent other than water.

Sedit

  • Global Moderator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,099
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #213 on: September 21, 2009, 07:14:00 PM »
You still have no idea what the use of the methylamine is yet Happy. You must form the imine before any reducing agent is going to be of any use. Naf1 was even kind enough to post a link to a patent regarding reductive amination yet Im not really sure you read that. I do like the idea from the science madness paper you linked to about the aq NaOH/Zn reduction of the imine though but the dimmerization aspect of it is a bit of a turn off. Maybe a quick test in the near future on acetone could be in order who knows. This could eliminate the need for Al/Hg since the dimmer is not produced heavy in most synthesis.



OK just to be positive I could make the Schiffs base of acetone using an (aq)MeNH2 solution correct? No need for water displacement here since it should be stable against hydrolysis. How nice it would be to find a quick easy(20minutes for the simpler ones) non toxic, amination to form isopropylamine needed for Lithium diisopropylamide synthesis. I would really love to have a good amount of LDA.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 07:56:40 PM by Sedit »
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

Happyman

  • Subordinate Wasp
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #214 on: September 22, 2009, 05:54:13 AM »
I hope you guys aren't tiring of my short questions. They should slow down pretty soon. So I sees trimethylbenzene with acetone turns to benzene & various alcohols, aldehydes. I'm assuming these would be in order from least to greatest as Hexanal, cis-3-Hexen-1-ol, Methyl isobutyl ketone?
C9H12+C3H6O---->C6H6+C6H12O
I see Cyclohexanol and I might as well conserve resources. Which cyclization reaction would be best to turn hexanal to cyclohexanol? Hoping that's too catering. The easiest comes first to mind which would be the use of sulfuric acid. Second aluminum chloride. And then would a Dieckmann condensation do the trick?
Also whats the name for cyclization via cyanate salt? And if its the same cyanogen bromide?

basstabone

  • Pupae
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2009, 05:13:26 AM »
@bastabone -

My tableting page is finally up.  I got all those tedious ass calculations done (you'll see what I mean when you read through).  Tell me what you think, and what you think I should add or subtract haha.

http://127.0.0.1/Douchermann/pharm/tableting.html

The pharmaceutical section is not open at the moment, so the only way to access the tableting page is through that link, or to know the link yourself.

Sorry I some how failed to see this post. It seems pretty good and gives me a much better idea of how to make caffeine pills. What does the Die look like though? Guess that is the last deal.

Douchermann

  • Dominant Queen
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2009, 05:35:58 AM »
I thought I had some pictures of it, but I don't.  I'll have to dig it up, it's been a long time since I've used it hahaha.  Gimme a bit, and watch for my post this time ;)

basstabone

  • Pupae
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #217 on: September 26, 2009, 12:17:33 AM »
I am drying some magnesium sulfate and am trying to find a suitable container. Will a jar with a ground glass joint keep it dry?

Sedit

  • Global Moderator
  • Foundress Queen
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,099
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #218 on: September 26, 2009, 01:11:30 AM »
I have kept mine in an old kitchen jar with a metal lid like a sauce jar. It is still fine and you can test it every now and then by placing a small pile on a heat source. If it melts and bubbles up it needs to be dehydrated again but this is normaly not a problem as long as the lid is not left off for to long.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

basstabone

  • Pupae
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Short Questions Thread
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2009, 02:45:21 AM »
Do you think if i added a little petroleum jelly it would make a tighter seal?